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shadow001
01-24-10, 04:30 PM
You can pick and choose the "facts" that support your argument but your opinions really don't matter to me and I couldn't care less whether you've said "nice things" about Nvidia.

What does that have to do with anything?

As I've repeatedly told you, I've done my own testing and it's in line with G3Ds. The 5970 just isn't that much faster (but it is slightly faster). 10-15% faster against 18 month old technology might get you excited but it doesn't do much for me.

As I said the last time, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Thanks

:)

PS : Maybe you should write to Hilbert (the owner of G3D) and tell him he doesn't know how to do benchmarks properly :rolleyes:


Then i guess you'll also be dissapointed with Fermi,since it might only be slightly faster than a pair of GTX285's in SLI...;)

Slytat
01-24-10, 04:36 PM
Then i guess you'll also be dissapointed with Fermi,since it might only be slightly faster than a pair of GTX285's in SLI...;)

You don't know that, I don't know that.

Since I like things such as nHancer, I'm more likely to go with Nvidia when I do my spring upgrade but I've already bought 2 x 5870 and a 5970 so I'm hardly taking sides. I'd be happy if they were faster than they are to be perfectly honest with you.

PS : One thing to remember is that Fermi is a single GPU, so if it's faster than 285 SLI, it'll be kicking ATI squarely in the virtual bollocks as it takes a 2 GPU 5970 to beat 285 SLI.

Xion X2
01-24-10, 05:43 PM
You can pick and choose the "facts" that support your argument but your opinions really don't matter to me and I couldn't care less whether you've said "nice things" about Nvidia.

What does that have to do with anything?

Guy, you are really dense.

You claim that I have "red-tinted" glasses; THAT'S what it has to do with it. Guys who have "red-tinted glasses" don't go buying 1,500$ worth of Nvidia hardware or say nice things about the company left and right.

And, once again, you're confusing opinion with fact. It is a fact that 5970 is significantly faster than 285 SLI in several titles. This has been clearly shown from the links that I've already provided.

As I've repeatedly told you, I've done my own testing and it's in line with G3Ds.

And again, I don't care WHAT you've done, because you are not a reputable source, now are you? You expect me and everyone here to take your word for something as being objective and proof? Why? Because you say so?

What proof have you offered that we can take seriously? I haven't seen graphs, screenshots with frame counters, framerate logs, anything. All I have to go on is what you're saying, and to this point, you haven't really shown me that you're trustworthy.

PS : Maybe you should write to Hilbert (the owner of G3D) and tell him he doesn't know how to do benchmarks properly :rolleyes:
Ok. I'll do that when you write to Anandtech, FiringSquad, and all the other sites out there that show different than what Guru3D showed.

Slytat
01-24-10, 05:57 PM
Guy, you are really dense.

You claim that I have "red-tinted" glasses; THAT'S what it has to do with it. Guys who have "red-tinted glasses" don't go buying 1,500$ worth of Nvidia hardware or say nice things about the company left and right.

And, once again, you're confusing opinion with fact. It is a fact that 5970 is significantly faster than 285 SLI in several titles. This has been clearly shown from the links that I've already provided.



And again, I don't care WHAT you've done, because you are not a reputable source, now are you? You expect me and everyone here to take your word for something as being objective and proof? Why? Because you say so?

What proof have you offered that we can take seriously? I haven't seen graphs, screenshots with frame counters, framerate logs, anything. All I have to go on is what you're saying, and to this point, you haven't really shown me that you're trustworthy.


Ok. I'll do that when you write to Anandtech, FiringSquad, and all the other sites out there that show different than what Guru3D showed.

I don't mind a friendly disagreement but when the insults start I have to draw the line so lets just go our separate ways. I'm sure we both have better things to do than argue about video cards :)

PS : JFYI, I never asked for any endorsements from you or anybody else here, I stated my experiences and was not looking for any validation. Do you really think I care if they meet with your approval? (That's a resounding "I don't" in case you were in any doubt).

PPS : 10-15% is not significant in my opinion but that's subjective. Obviously you think it is and you are entitled to that opinion.

See ya :)

Sazar
01-24-10, 06:23 PM
You don't know that, I don't know that.

Since I like things such as nHancer, I'm more likely to go with Nvidia when I do my spring upgrade but I've already bought 2 x 5870 and a 5970 so I'm hardly taking sides. I'd be happy if they were faster than they are to be perfectly honest with you.

PS : One thing to remember is that Fermi is a single GPU, so if it's faster than 285 SLI, it'll be kicking ATI squarely in the virtual bollocks as it takes a 2 GPU 5970 to beat 285 SLI.

You have 2 5870's AND a 5970?

:confused:

Why?

Plus you yourself said that a single 5970 is about as a fast as sli'd 285's. Now you are saying it takes 2 x 5970 to beat an sli'd pair of 285's?

Slytat
01-24-10, 06:27 PM
You have 2 5870's AND a 5970?

:confused:

Why?

Plus you yourself said that a single 5970 is about as a fast as sli'd 285's. Now you are saying it takes 2 x 5970 to beat an sli'd pair of 285's?

Thats not what I said, read it again (I said a 2 GPU 5970 not 2 5970s). 2 x 5970 levels anything out there.

I have all kinds of hardware and several PCs, it's a hobby of mine like many others here.

PS : I don't have the 5870s anymore and the 5970 will likely be going as well depending on how good Fermi is :)

shadow001
01-24-10, 07:50 PM
You don't know that, I don't know that.

Since I like things such as nHancer, I'm more likely to go with Nvidia when I do my spring upgrade but I've already bought 2 x 5870 and a 5970 so I'm hardly taking sides. I'd be happy if they were faster than they are to be perfectly honest with you.

PS : One thing to remember is that Fermi is a single GPU, so if it's faster than 285 SLI, it'll be kicking ATI squarely in the virtual bollocks as it takes a 2 GPU 5970 to beat 285 SLI.


What does it matter if it's a dual GPU or a single one?....What matters is the perfomance delivered,and so far it seems below that of the HD5970 card,so if you're dissapointed with that in terms of performance,how would you be satisfied with Fermi,regardless of it being a single GPU card.


Maybe i'm getting old here,but that sounds like a double standard,and one that's been used ever since ATI released the HD3870 X2 cards about 2 years ago,and doing so while forgetting that Nvidia already released 3 dual GPU cards so far,ironically,to beat ATI's dual GPU cards in fact...;)

Slytat
01-24-10, 08:02 PM
What does it matter if it's a dual GPU or a single one?....What matters is the perfomance delivered,and so far it seems below that of the HD5970 card,so if you're dissapointed with that in terms of performance,how would you be satisfied with Fermi,regardless of it being a single GPU card.


Maybe i'm getting old here,but that sounds like a double standard,and one that's been used ever since ATI released the HD3870 X2 cards about 2 years ago,and doing so while forgetting that Nvidia already released 3 dual GPU cards so far,ironically,to beat ATI's dual GPU cards in fact...;)

What double standard?

First of all, when I do comparisons, I compare on a GPU vs GPU basis.

1 Fermi is likely going to be slower than the 5970 but the 5970 is essentially 2 cards so, unlike yourself, I compare them GPU vs GPU and since the 5970 has 2, I'm going to compare 2 x Fermi or the GTX395 (which will most likely have some kind of gimping).

If you are going to compare the Fermi to an ATI card, it should be the 5870. This belief that Fermi has to beat the 5970 in order to be a success is ridiculous and it certainly wasn't applied to ATI when they released the 5xxx series as even their 2 GPU card doesn't beat SLI by that much and their 5870 can't even best the aging 295 let alone 285s in SLI. I think it is you who is indulging in a double standard here mate, not me.

Madpistol
01-24-10, 09:01 PM
What double standard?

First of all, when I do comparisons, I compare on a GPU vs GPU basis.

1 Fermi is likely going to be slower than the 5970 but the 5970 is essentialy 2 cards so, unlike yourself, I compare them GPU vs GPU and since the 5970 has 2, I'm going to compare 2 x Fermi or the GTX395 (which will most likely have some kind of gimping).

If you are going to compare the Fermi to an ATI card, it should be the 5870. This belief that Fermi has to beat the 5970 in order to be a success is ridiculous and it certainly wasn't applied to ATI when they released the 58xx series as even their 2 GPU card doesn't beat SLI by that much. I think it is you who is indulging in a double standard here mate, not me.

We'll have to wait on pricing to decide which card that Fermi is going to compete with. Price is going to be the chief factor for determing which card Fermi is going to compete with. If nvidia is able to work some miracle and keep Fermi from being stupidly expensive, then it will compete with the 5870. Otherwise, it will compete with the 5970.

Forget the fact that the 5970 has 2 chips, because that is irrelevant. Performance is performance, and if you want it, you have to pay for it.

Slytat
01-24-10, 09:11 PM
We'll have to wait on pricing to decide which card that Fermi is going to compete with. Price is going to be the chief factor for determing which card Fermi is going to compete with. If nvidia is able to work some miracle and keep Fermi from being stupidly expensive, then it will compete with the 5870. Otherwise, it will compete with the 5970.

Forget the fact that the 5970 has 2 chips, because that is irrelevant. Performance is performance, and if you want it, you have to pay for it.

It's irrelevant - as long as you compare it to 2 Fermi's (or the Fermi dual GPU card)

I can guarantee you there would be some major "dummy spitting" on this forum if things were the other way around.

From what little we know, it appears that 2 Fermi's will beat the 5970.

People who shell out ~$800+ for 2 video cards are rarely worried about price.

shadow001
01-24-10, 10:23 PM
What double standard?

First of all, when I do comparisons, I compare on a GPU vs GPU basis.

1 Fermi is likely going to be slower than the 5970 but the 5970 is essentially 2 cards so, unlike yourself, I compare them GPU vs GPU and since the 5970 has 2, I'm going to compare 2 x Fermi or the GTX395 (which will most likely have some kind of gimping).

If you are going to compare the Fermi to an ATI card, it should be the 5870. This belief that Fermi has to beat the 5970 in order to be a success is ridiculous and it certainly wasn't applied to ATI when they released the 5xxx series as even their 2 GPU card doesn't beat SLI by that much and their 5870 can't even best the aging 295 let alone 285s in SLI. I think it is you who is indulging in a double standard here mate, not me.


And the main point that ATI intentionally keeps the relative size/power and production cost of their last few generations of GPU's,limited on purpose to allow the use of the same GPU on several different models of cards has nothing to do with it right?,which includes cards starting as low as 250$ using Cypress GPU's(HD5830).


Absolutely nothing stops ATI from building GPU's just as large and using just as many transistors as Nvidia does for their high end parts,and sticking to a single GPU design for their highest end models,just like Nvidia does,but it seems that a least in the last 2 generations,they've found a better way to serve several price points and address several markets with the same GPU.


And the latest example is the most obvious one....Like it or hate it,ATI's HD5800/5900 cards were released on time and kicking ass and taking the speed crown,while Nvidia does nothing but talk how great Fermi will be,and it's horribly late and using a lot of power,so it's not hard to see which strategy is working better so far.


So with that in mind,comparing a single Cypress,which was still built to be economical to produce and use reasonable amounts of power and easily allow the possibility of a dual GPU card,against a strategy from it's direct competitor which tried to stuff as many transistors as possible into a single GPU die,uses a lot more power and isn't cheap to make,isn't really a fair comparison either.


Ask yourself this....When will you see Fermi being used in a 250$ video card,just like ATI can use Cypress in a card selling for the same price,and still make money on it?....That's right,probably not happening anytime soon.

Slytat
01-24-10, 10:40 PM
And the main point that ATI intentionally keeps the relative size/power and production cost of their last few generations of GPU's,limited on purpose to allow the use of the same GPU on several different models of cards has nothing to do with it right?,which includes cards starting as low as 250$ using Cypress GPU's(HD5830).


Absolutely nothing stops ATI from building GPU's just as large and using just as many transistors as Nvidia does for their high end parts,and sticking to a single GPU design for their highest end models,just like Nvidia does,but it seems that a least in the last 2 generations,they've found a better way to serve several price points and address several markets with the same GPU.


And the latest example is the most obvious one....Like it or hate it,ATI's HD5800/5900 cards were released on time and kicking ass and taking the speed crown,while Nvidia does nothing but talk how great Fermi will be,and it's horribly late and using a lot of power,so it's not hard to see which strategy is working better so far.


So with that in mind,comparing a single Cypress,which was still built to be economical to produce and use reasonable amounts of power and easily allow the possibility of a dual GPU card,against a strategy from it's direct competitor which tried to stuff as many transistors as possible into a single GPU die,uses a lot more power and isn't cheap to make,isn't really a fair comparison either.


Ask yourself this....When will you see Fermi being used in a 250$ video card,just like ATI can use Cypress in a card selling for the same price,and still make money on it?....That's right,probably not happening anytime soon.


I'll stick to testing on a GPU vs GPU basis and you do whatever makes you happy. As usual, you feel this misplaced need to defend ATI from what you perceive to be an attack.

You keep treating this like a competition but I'll remind you again that I own a 5970 (and I had 2 5870s before that). I would be far more amenable to ATI if they had an app like nHancer and their drivers were a little better.

I could go on and on but you'll keep thinking this is an argument that you have to "win" while I'll keep on enjoying my hardware regardless of who makes it :)

Happy trails.

shadow001
01-24-10, 10:48 PM
I'll stick to testing on a GPU vs GPU basis and you do whatever makes you happy. As usual, you feel this misplaced need to defend ATI from what you perceive as an attack.

You keep treating this like a competition but I'll remind you again that I own a 5970 (and I had 2 5870s before that). I would be far more amenable to ATI if they had an app like nHancer and their drivers were a little better.

I could go on and on but you'll keep thinking this is an argument that you have to "win" while I'll keep on enjoying my hardware regardless of who makes it :)

Happy trails.

I'm not treating it like a competition at all,just drawing on the different strategies by both companies that make your comparison on a GPU versus GPU,not only a competition,but you also assume the idea for both was to make the best possible GPU they could.


That is the case for Nvidia,which has a much larger transistor budget and is more expensive to make without a doubt,compared to what ATI did with Cypress,which is also the best they could do,but with lower limits on transistor budget,die size,and power consumption.


It's really that simple.

Slytat
01-24-10, 10:50 PM
I'm not treating it like a competition at all,just drawing on the different strategies by both companies that make your comparison on a GPU versus GPU,not only a competition,but you also assume the idea for both was to make the best possible GPU they could.


That is the case for Nvidia,which has a much larger transistor budget and is more expensive to make without a doubt,compared to what ATI did with Cypress,which is also the best they could do,but with lower limits on transistor budget,die size,and power consumption.


It's really that simple.

Hey, I never said ATI made bad hardware. They both have their strengths and weaknesses :)

Just looked on NCIX and there are STILL no 5970s in stock. I thought that had been sorted.

Armed_Baboon
01-24-10, 11:09 PM
It's irrelevant - as long as you compare it to 2 Fermi's (or the Fermi dual GPU card)

I can guarantee you there would be some major "dummy spitting" on this forum if things were the other way around.

From what little we know, it appears that 2 Fermi's will beat the 5970.

People who shell out ~$800+ for 2 video cards are rarely worried about price.

cards should be compared by price, not configuration. Doesn't matter how the performance is delivered.

shadow001
01-24-10, 11:11 PM
Hey, I never said ATI made bad hardware. They both have their strengths and weaknesses :)

Just looked on NCIX and there are STILL no 5970s in stock. I thought that had been sorted.



You're not getting it,the overall product strategy is different for both,and that directly translates into the engineering requirements for both,so it doesn't really have anything to do with bad hardware as you're stating.


Fact is,if Fermi didn't beat a single Cypress would be a shock,and we still have yet to see by how much given that it is using 850 million extra transistors,so about a 40% higher transistor budget over cypress,and it would be funny if Fermi's performance advantage was smaller than that :D ;)

Slytat
01-24-10, 11:23 PM
You're not getting it,the overall product strategy is different for both,and that directly translates into the engineering requirements for both,so it doesn't really have anything to do with bad hardware as you're stating.


Fact is,if Fermi didn't beat a single Cypress would be a shock,and we still have yet to see by how much given that it is using 850 million extra transistors,so about a 40% higher transistor budget over cypress,and it would be funny if Fermi's performance advantage was smaller than that :D ;)

I get it just fine.

I was just making the point that I have nothing against ATI.

If Fermi ends up being substandard, it'll be a shame, but I won't be the one trying to tell everyone it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Obviously, I'm hoping for a strong card but time will tell.

Slytat
01-24-10, 11:24 PM
cards should be compared by price, not configuration. Doesn't matter how the performance is delivered.

Can't agree with you on that but to each their own :)

kaptkarl
01-25-10, 12:41 AM
Some folks here say the best card is the fastest card...period. In which case ATI wins w/ the 5000 series.

Some folks say is the best card is the one that has the best price vs. performance ratio. Again ATI wins w/ the 5000 series.

Sorry NVidia fanboys......facts speak for themselves....period. Now before you guys get your panties in a wad here, I currently OWN a NVidia card. I'm not chosing sides, nor am I loyal to a particular brand.

I just wish some people would quit looking at this w/ blinders on. See it for what it is. I hope the Fermi GF100 series cards rock the planet.......competition is a good thing for us all.:D

Oh, and before I get off my soapbox.....let me set something straight. ATI's drivers are EQUAL to, if not better than NVidia's. Quit using that as a crutch to justify NVidia having an advantage. In my personal experiences the last few yrs I've experienced MORE issues w/ NVidia's drivers than ATI's. Just saying from my own personal experiences. Now NVidia does have profiles.....ATI does not. But does that make them better??? uh...ur...no.

Back on topic........again I hope the GF100 series is a solid, fast and competitively priced product. We'll see...............................

I say, upon Fermi's release, throw the top dog up against ATI's best. And for us price minded folks, show price vs performance as well.


Kapt

Slytat
01-25-10, 12:45 AM
Some folks here say the best card is the fastest card...period. In which case ATI wins w/ the 5000 series.

Some folks say is the best card is the one that has the best price vs. performance ratio. Again ATI wins w/ the 5000 series.

Sorry NVidia fanboys......facts speak for themselves....period. Now before you guys get your panties in a wad here, I currently OWN a NVidia card. I'm not chosing sides, nor am I loyal to a particular brand.

I just wish some people would quit looking at this w/ blinders on. See it for what it is. I hope the Fermi GF100 series cards rock the planet.......competition is a good thing for us all.:D

Oh, and before I get off my soapbox.....let me set something straight. ATI's drivers are EQUAL to, if not better than NVidia's. Quit using that as a crutch to justify NVidia having an advantage. In my personal experiences the last few yrs I've experienced MORE issues w/ NVidia's drivers than ATI's. Just saying from my own personal experiences. Now NVidia does have profiles.....ATI does not. But does that make them better??? uh...ur...no.

Back on topic........again I hope the GF100 series is a solid, fast and competitively priced product. We'll see...............................

I say, upon Fermi's release, throw the top dog up against ATI's best. And for us price minded folks, show price vs performance as well.


Kapt

While I agree that ATI has the faster cards and WAY better pricing, I can't agree on the driver situation. Of course, in a lot of cases I think that boils down to luck.

As for the profiles, well actually it does make them better in that particular respect.

Xion X2
01-25-10, 01:09 AM
PS : JFYI, I never asked for any endorsements from you or anybody else here, I stated my experiences and was not looking for any validation.

Stating experiences is one thing. Going around and repeatedly claiming and arguing with people about 285 SLI being comparable in performance to 5970 is doing a little more than that. You're laying a claim to fact which you must then prove if you expect others to take you seriously.

And that's where there's a problem, because the only proof you have of this "fact" that you keep claiming is a single benchmark review that is quite questionable since it clashes with results found on several other reputable sites.

I don't care if Hilbert is a CEO of a graphics division, if he were, there is still the margin of error that you get when you decide to take a single set of benchmarks and ignore everything else out there. You keep going that route if you like; I'm not going to. I would rather see something validated and confirmed by a few different sources before I believe something, but hey, you do what you like.

Do you really think I care if they meet with your approval? (That's a resounding "I don't" in case you were in any doubt).

You keep turning this into some sort of personal issue. It is not. It's not about meeting "[my] approval"; it's about you proving your claims to fact.

PPS : 10-15% is not significant in my opinion but that's subjective. Obviously you think it is and you are entitled to that opinion.

Yes, because 3x performance of a 285 in Stalker equates to "10-15%" difference between 5970 and 285 SLI. I guess you plan to show us the first confirmed case of SLI scaling about 180% on a game. :rolleyes:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8981/fall2560.gif

Slytat
01-25-10, 01:17 AM
Ughh, are you still going? Just move on already.

Xion X2
01-25-10, 01:22 AM
Ughh, are you still going? Just move on already.

"Pot, meet kettle."

Fotis
01-25-10, 01:30 AM
While I agree that ATI has the faster cards and WAY better pricing, I can't agree on the driver situation. Of course, in a lot of cases I think that boils down to luck.

As for the profiles, well actually it does make them better in that particular respect.

Profiles are included in the Catalyst 10.1 version due by the end of the month.:)

Xion X2
01-25-10, 01:32 AM
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5504/1258499856bbwqnveagr44.gif
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2009/11/18/amd_ati_radeon_hd_5970_video_card_review/4

GTX295 = -53%

But hey, I'm just so sure that 285 SLI could make up that 54fps gap since it's in no way comparable to a 295.

:bleh: