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shadow001
01-29-10, 05:16 PM
You're the one making assumptions. Nobody said the drivers would be perfect and I'm sure there will be teething problems, there always are. Like Slawter, I'm not risking having to wait for SLI support for the new games coming in the next month or so. That's one of the major advantages that Nvidia offers and one that I'm just not willing to give up.

To each their own at the end of the day. I've tried 2 different flavours of ATI 5xxx and I wasn't happy with them. If you are, then who cares what anyone else thinks.


How isn't that a problem exactly?....You're getting a brand new generation of cards and want SLI to work with every new game release right off the bat,without you having to create your own custom profile?...Good luck,you'll need it.


For the record,the 10.2 drivers,or at least the beta's that i'm using,have a seperate tab just for crossfire profiles,meaning we'll soon not have to wait for new drivers every month to get crossfire support for new game releases,as the profiles can get updated seprately from the drivers themselves,directly from ATI's site.

shadow001
01-29-10, 05:24 PM
Not sure if this was in reply to me but if it was -



I've been Nv from the 6800GT to the 9800GTX and have always seen bugs squashed and drivers improved. While I love this card, it's been long enough (got it at release) so I've had time to compare long term the work of Nv's driver teams and ATIs.

I'm not claiming Nv has no issues, they just appear to be fixed sooner rather than later. Besides, Any issues the 58xx series has now "should" be fixed by Fermi's rollout. I can do a better comparison before buying at that time.



Just a general comment that drivers from the time of release of any new card aren't quite perfect or even extracting all the performance that the hardware is capable of either,but rather a gradual process of performance improvements and bug killing,and that applies to both ATI and Nvidia.


My brother owns an 8800GT,which given it's age and the countless drivers that have been released since that particular model hit retail,you'd think they'd be perfect after 2+ years,yet every now aand then when he's running new applications or games,he still has to update them when there's obvious stuff not running like it should.


The perfect driver will never be written by anyone,as there's always something wrong somewhere since there's thousands of applications out there.

Slytat
01-29-10, 05:24 PM
How isn't that a problem exactly?....You're getting a brand new generation of cards and want SLI to work with every new game release right off the bat,without you having to create your own custom profile?...Good luck,you'll need it.


For the record,the 10.2 drivers,or at least the beta's that i'm using,have a seperate tab just for crossfire profiles,meaning we'll soon not have to wait for new drivers every month to get crossfire support for new game releases,as the profiles can get updated seprately from the drivers themselves,directly from ATI's site.

Good for you, enjoy your cards and I'll enjoy mine.

Of course ATI's profiles will be perfect right off the bat while naturally, Nvidia will have all kinds of problems /sarcasm off

Get a clue and stop worrying about what other people are buying.

I'm not going to make an argument for you to bail on your cards anymore than you can convince me to stick with ATI. I tried them, I didn't like them.

shadow001
01-29-10, 05:35 PM
Good for you, enjoy your cards and I'll enjoy mine.

Of course ATI's profiles will be perfect right off the bat while naturally, Nvidia will have all kinds of problems /sarcasm off

Get a clue and stop worrying about what other people are buying.

I'm not going to make an argument for you to bail on your cards anymore than you can convince me to stick with ATI. I tried them, I didn't like them.


I didn't say that so stop implying stuff i didn't say.


What i did say is that there's no such thing as perfect software from anyone.....There's simply far too many applications on the market and different hardware configurations to make it possible.


If we had perfect drivers,there would be a single release for the entire lifespan of a given video card,but since both companies do regular driver updates,it's because not everything out there is running the way it should.


The only thing you can say is that software you use is running fine,but that is hardly considered perfection,not even close to it.

Slytat
01-29-10, 05:36 PM
I didn't say that so stop implying stuff i didn't say.


What i did say is that there's no such thing as perfect software from anyone.....There's simply far too many applications on the market and different hardware configurations to make it possible.


If we had perfect drivers,there would be a single release for the entire lifespan of a given video card,but since both companies do regular driver updates,it's because not everything out there is running the way it should.


The only thing you can say is that software you use is running fine,but that is hardly considered perfection,not even close to it.

some here are assuming that as soon as Fermi is released,regardless of it's performance or other issues,that it's drivers will be perfect right from the start?

Ok, I never implied anyone had perfect software. You assumed that's what other posters were implying.

I'm not sure what point it is you are trying to make tbh but whatever.

shadow001
01-29-10, 05:44 PM
Ok, I never implied anyone had perfect software. You assumed that's what other posters were implying.

I'm not sure what point it is you are trying to make tbh but whatever.


Mostly because some are getting rid of their ATI cards,not because the hardware sucks,but due to driver issues on a card that's barely been released,and going the fermi option as soon as that one is released,so it's easy to infer that they're expecting better experiences on the software side of things,right from the first driver release.

Slytat
01-29-10, 05:58 PM
Mostly because some are getting rid of their ATI cards,not because the hardware sucks,but due to driver issues on a card that's barely been released,and going the fermi option as soon as that one is released,so it's easy to infer that they're expecting better experiences on the software side of things,right from the first driver release.

Not really, I'm sure there'll be some teething problems with Fermi, but that's a given (at least as far as I am concerned).

It's been more than 90 days already since ATI released their DX11 cards,and they've shipped 800 000 GPU's to customers so far....Hardly an insignificant lead to start off,and didn't Nvidia make a big deal out of having the first DX10 graphics card a couple of years ago,when it was ATI's turn to suffer delays with the R600,which ended up not performing as well as people hoped and used too much power.

In one breath you use the fact that ATI beat Nvidia to market by what will be ~6 months and now it's "barely released".

Pretty funny stuff.

Have fun :)

shadow001
01-29-10, 06:07 PM
Not really, I'm sure there'll be some teething problems with Fermi, but that's a given (at least as far as I am concerned).



In one breath you use the fact that ATI beat Nvidia to market by what will be ~6 months and now it's "barely released".

Pretty funny stuff.

Have fun :)


In terms of driver releases yes,as there's only 1 WHQL driver set being released once a month on average,which is actually more than what Nvidia have been doing for a long while now....What Nvidia do is release a truckload of beta drivers.


And the 6 month mark will be with regards to the HD5870 cards,assuming you can actually find Fermi's in march,not the HD5970's,which were offcially released on the 18th of november,so only a bit over 2 months ago....I've had mine now for about 1 1/2 months.


And as for the 800 000 GPU's shipped,you can now update that to 2 million since ATI made a statement with regards to that about 3 weeks ago,so you can only imagine how many more they'll sell until Fermi does show up in march,so it's quite a nice present Nvidia gave them with Fermi being released this late.


For the record,ATI ships about 35 million GPU's per year worldwide.

Slytat
01-29-10, 06:12 PM
In terms of driver releases yes,as there's only 1 WHQL driver set being released once a month on average,which is actually more than what Nvidia have been doing for a long while now....What Nvidia do is release a truckload of beta drivers.


And the 6 month mark will be with regards to the HD5870 cards,assuming you can actually find Fermi's in march,not the HD5970's,which were offcially released on the 18th of november,so only a bit over 2 months ago....I've had mine now for about 1 1/2 months.


And as for the 800 000 GPU's shipped,you can now update that to 2 million since ATI made a statement with regards to that about 3 weeks ago,so you can only imagine how many more they'll sell until Fermi does show up in march,so it's quite a nice present Nvidia gave them with Fermi being released this late.

For the record,ATI ships about 35 million GPU's per year worldwide.

I'll have my Fermis in March.

I don't really care about how many GPUs ATI has shipped tbh :)

shadow001
01-29-10, 06:24 PM
I'll have my Fermis in March.

I don't really care about how many GPUs ATI has shipped tbh :)


Here's hoping that you will get them,and that they will be the full 512 SP versions.


As for the volume that ATI has already shipped,it might not be of any interest to the average user,but you can bet the bank that Nvidia's CEO and their share holders are plenty worried about it,that's for sure,even more so in this crappy recession we're still neck deep in.


So thanks to the delays that Nvidia has suffered with Fermi,ATI are raking it in in terms of sales,with cards flying out of the shelves and only the most staunch Nvidia fans are still resisting the temptation of not buying the cards.

Slytat
01-29-10, 06:30 PM
Here's hoping that you will get them,and that they will be the full 512 SP versions.


As for the volume that ATI has already shipped,it might not be of any interest to the average user,but you can bet the bank that Nvidia's CEO and their share holders are plenty worried about it,that's for sure,even more so in this crappy recession we're still neck deep in.


So thanks to the delays that Nvidia has suffered with Fermi,ATI are raking it in in terms of sales,with cards flying out of the shelves and only the most staunch Nvidia fans are still resisting the temptation of not buying the cards.

You're hilarious guy. You just can't help yourself.

If they are released in March, I'll have them in March.

FYI, I know 3 people who bought 5xxx series cards and quickly went back to Nvidia because they weren't happy and if Fermi is faster and priced right, we'll see how well ATI does in the face of actual competition (of which there is absolutely NONE right now).

Doubtless, you'll be ready with some ridiculous argument to try and justify why ATI is better but that won't come as any surprise.

Slytat
01-29-10, 06:31 PM
Like WHQL is important.... :headexplode:

What matters is bug fixing and game support for AA and Multi-GPU. I really prefer the nV way here. They usually have a driver ready before or on the game's release day. Sometimes even for pre-release versions (demos, betas). That's great support. It doesn't matter if it's beta or final... support is there and it works.

ATI's driver update schedule is simply too slow and not flexible enough. Hot Fix drivers are usually out too late and might even break some other stuff that worked before with the normal version.

/QFT

shadow001
01-29-10, 06:36 PM
Like WHQL is important.... :headexplode:

What matters is bug fixing and game support for AA and Multi-GPU. I really prefer the nV way here. They usually have a driver ready before or on the game's release day. Sometimes even for pre-release versions (demos, betas). That's great support. It doesn't matter if it's beta or final... support is there and it works.

ATI's driver update schedule is simply too slow and not flexible enough. Hot Fix drivers are usually out too late and might even break some other stuff that worked before with the normal version.



Seems like oh i dunno,OEM's like HP or compaq,Dell and all other brand name PC makers do,that's why it's there....They won't install beta drivers not having gone thru the windows certification program,period.

Slytat
01-29-10, 06:42 PM
Seems like oh i dunno,OEM's like HP or compaq,Dell and all other brand name PC makers do,that's why it's there....They won't install beta drivers not having gone thru the windows certification program,period.

It's irrelevant as far as Nvidia goes, I'm running non WHQL betas at least 50% of the time.

Why don't you just accept the fact that not everyone shares your glowing (and endless) endorsements of ATI.

You like their cards, we get it already :rolleyes:

shadow001
01-29-10, 06:45 PM
You're hilarious guy. You just can't help yourself.

If they are released in March, I'll have them in March.

FYI, I know 3 people who bought 5xxx series cards and quickly went back to Nvidia because they weren't happy and if Fermi is faster and priced right, we'll see how well ATI does in the face of actual competition (of which there is absolutely NONE right now).

Doubtless, you'll be ready with some ridiculous argument to try and justify why ATI is better but that won't come as any surprise.


Nope no argument about ATI being better at all,but rather being out first,having no competition on the market,selling a lot of cards in the process and making tons of money while they're at it....Basically,Nvidia's worst nightmare has and is continuing to happen right before our eyes.


For all we know,by the time Fermi is actually available in any sort of decent volumes,they'll have to face refreshed versions of the HD5870 and HD5970 cards,not the current ones,as they're old news by then....


The tech industry is brutal when your product is really late,just like when ATI was really late with their original R600 cards,which were 6+ months late,used too much power and ran hot, and didn't perform as good as was expected,and so far,apart from the actual performance numbers of fermi,which of course are still unknown,it's following the same path as the R600 did back in the day.


Just something to think about...;)

shadow001
01-29-10, 06:47 PM
It's irrelevant as far as Nvidia goes, I'm running non WHQL betas at least 50% of the time.

Why don't you just accept the fact that not everyone shares your glowing (and endless) endorsements of ATI.

You like their cards, we get it already :rolleyes:


OEM contracts pay the bills,as they order the highest volumes of cards from both ATI and Nvidia,so WHQL matters.

Slytat
01-29-10, 06:54 PM
Nope no argument about ATI being better at all,but rather being out first,having no competition on the market,selling a lot of cards in the process and making tons of money while they're at it....Basically,Nvidia's worst nightmare has and is continuing to happen right before our eyes.


For all we know,by the time Fermi is actually available in any sort of decent volumes,they'll have to face refreshed versions of the HD5870 and HD5970 cards,not the current ones,as they're old news by then....


The tech industry is brutal when your product is really late,just like when ATI was really late with their original R600 cards,which were 6+ months late,used too much power and ran hot, and didn't perform as good as was expected,and so far,apart from the actual performance numbers of fermi,it's following the same path as the R600 did back in the day.


Just something to think about...;)

You are dealing in baseless speculation.

For all we know by the time Fermi shows up, there'll be time travelling monkeys raiding 7/11s with cricket bats.

Seriously, that's why I said you can't help yourself and why as much as you keep telling me you are not biased, you very clearly are.

If Fermi were to be a substandard product, then I would agree that Nvidia had definitively lost this round. The point (that I suspect you'll refuse to concede no matter what happens) is that if Fermi is as fast as has been hinted at and priced competitively, all will be forgiven and your "devoted" ATI users will be selling/ditching their 5xxx series cards in droves.

Slytat
01-29-10, 06:57 PM
OEM contracts pay the bills,as they order the highest volumes of cards from both ATI and Nvidia,so WHQL matters.

Nope, not to the end user which is what we are talking about here.

As I told you, I run on non WHQL drivers more often than not. The fact is that Nvidia are far better at providing multi GPU support etc for new games in a timely fashion.

Sorry.

grey_1
01-29-10, 07:03 PM
Like WHQL is important.... :headexplode:

What matters is bug fixing and game support for AA and Multi-GPU. I really prefer the nV way here. They usually have a driver ready before or on the game's release day. Sometimes even for pre-release versions (demos, betas). That's great support. It doesn't matter if it's beta or final... support is there and it works.

ATI's driver update schedule is simply too slow and not flexible enough. Hot Fix drivers are usually out too late and might even break some other stuff that worked before with the normal version.

Bingo.

gulizard
01-29-10, 07:23 PM
Nope no argument about ATI being better at all,but rather being out first,having no competition on the market,selling a lot of cards in the process and making tons of money while they're at it....Basically,Nvidia's worst nightmare has and is continuing to happen right before our eyes.


For all we know,by the time Fermi is actually available in any sort of decent volumes,they'll have to face refreshed versions of the HD5870 and HD5970 cards,not the current ones,as they're old news by then....


The tech industry is brutal when your product is really late,just like when ATI was really late with their original R600 cards,which were 6+ months late,used too much power and ran hot, and didn't perform as good as was expected,and so far,apart from the actual performance numbers of fermi,which of course are still unknown,it's following the same path as the R600 did back in the day.


Just something to think about...;)

I will have to disagree. No way that ATI makes more money then nvidia selling graphics cards. Sorry but nvidia has been doing this a long time, and if you honestly think nvidia is just in the pc market here, you are sadly mistaking. They make bank off of a lot of things. Their names are on big titles, they are even expanding into cars now. GPS, Phones, Consoles... The list just continues to grow. nvidia use to have an awesome sound board to. The nforce2 sound would out do a PCI Audigy Card back in the day. Their chipsets have been simply awesome.

SLI "enhanced memory". I mean they have their name on everything literally. ATI has just as of recent actually started to jump back up, and it just so happens they released their card first... If nvidia was that worried, they'd of released fermi already. However they are making damn sure all the bugs are worked out.

shadow001
01-29-10, 08:44 PM
You are dealing in baseless speculation.

For all we know by the time Fermi shows up, there'll be time travelling monkeys raiding 7/11s with cricket bats.

Seriously, that's why I said you can't help yourself and why as much as you keep telling me you are not biased, you very clearly are.

If Fermi were to be a substandard product, then I would agree that Nvidia had definitively lost this round. The point (that I suspect you'll refuse to concede no matter what happens) is that if Fermi is as fast as has been hinted at and priced competitively, all will be forgiven and your "devoted" ATI users will be selling/ditching their 5xxx series cards in droves.


How exactly is it baseless?...Let's review the facts shall we?

ATI:

1:They have their cards out,starting with the HD5870 in late september.
2:Yeilds are no longer an issue,we can easily find them everywhere.
3:They are the fastest cards on the market period.
4:They've shipped at least 2 million GPU's as of 3 weeks ago.


Nvidia:

1:First official presentation of Fermi was in late september,in order to take out some wind from ATI's anouncement a week earlier and even then,only talking about GP-GPU capabilities.
2:They're already on the 3rd respin of the GPU,as it kept having issues obviously with the previous revisions.
3:No gaming performance numbers still reveiled.
4:No official anouncement date for retail availability is still set.


You're right that in normal comparisons,we pick the best between both brands,but they both have to be available in the first place,and that isn't the case with Fermi,even 4 months after the release of the HD5870 cards,and the potential is there that they will be facing faster refresh cards by the time you can actually go out and buy one.


So the road for Fermi to establish itself as the king of the hill is very much an uphill one at this point,largely because it's so ****ing late as the main reason,so ATI win by default when your competition simply isn't there.


This isn't biased or brand preferance talking,it's just plain logic.

shadow001
01-29-10, 08:50 PM
I will have to disagree. No way that ATI makes more money then nvidia selling graphics cards. Sorry but nvidia has been doing this a long time, and if you honestly think nvidia is just in the pc market here, you are sadly mistaking. They make bank off of a lot of things. Their names are on big titles, they are even expanding into cars now. GPS, Phones, Consoles... The list just continues to grow. nvidia use to have an awesome sound board to. The nforce2 sound would out do a PCI Audigy Card back in the day. Their chipsets have been simply awesome.

SLI "enhanced memory". I mean they have their name on everything literally. ATI has just as of recent actually started to jump back up, and it just so happens they released their card first... If nvidia was that worried, they'd of released fermi already. However they are making damn sure all the bugs are worked out.


You're talking in global terms wich is much broader view overall,but i'm talking about DX11 cards specifically,which ATI is selling by the truckloads right now,and will do so for a while still,assuming Nvidia really releases Fermi in march and it's not a paper release,but with actual product on store shelves ready to buy.


You know,the same critisism levied on the HD5870 once it got released...That cuts both ways ;),and the bottom line is,did Nvidia sell any DX11 cards so far?...Not a single one.

Slytat
01-29-10, 09:10 PM
How exactly is it baseless?...Let's review the facts shall we?

ATI:

1:They have their cards out,starting with the HD5870 in late september

That's really irrelevant PROVIDING Fermi doesn't tank

2:Yeilds are no longer an issue,we can easily find them everywhere.

Bull**** - The 5970 is still AWOL

3:They are the fastest cards on the market period.

True, but not by a great deal against substantially older technology (Except at 2560 x 1920 where it's just a case of unplayable FPS vs very unplayable FPS)

4:They've shipped at least 2 million GPU's as of 3 weeks ago.

Bully for them


Nvidia:

1:First official presentation of Fermi was in late september,in order to take out some wind from ATI's anouncement a week earlier and even then,only talking about GP-GPU capabilities.
2:They're already on the 3rd respin of the GPU,as it kept having issues obviously with the previous revisions.

So does ATI and they continue to do so as evidenced by the 5970 shortage - moot point

3:No gaming performance numbers still reveiled.

There have been some and they indicated that Fermi was ~35% faster than ATI on a GPU vs GPU basis

4:No official anouncement date for retail availability is still set.

It might not be official but people "in the know" are saying March


You're right that in normal comparisons,we pick the best between both brands,but they both have to be available in the first place,and that isn't the case with Fermi,even 4 months after the release of the HD5870 cards,and the potential is there that they will be facing faster refresh cards by the time you can actually go out and buy one.


So the road for Fermi to establish itself as the king of the hill is very much an uphill one at this point,largely because it's so ****ing late as the main reason,so ATI win by default when your competition simply isn't there.


This isn't biased or brand preferance talking,it's just plain logic.

I don't like ATI's current offerings and I've sold them on.

ATI has won nothing until Fermi is released, when that happens, we'll see who has the better hardware. If Nvidia had released first, I wouldn't be declaring them the winner by default, I'd want to see what ATI was offering as well, even if it meant waiting. It's very telling that you are already declaring "winners" and "losers".

The fact is, existing Nvidia hardware is capable of playing any game on the market and by the time there are more than 5 DX11 games, Fermi will have been released. It's not so much that Nvidia is late (and they are) as ATI was early.

You see, the difference between you and I is that if Fermi tanks, I won't try and defend Nvidia (I might well go with ATI's refresh at that point although Fermi would have to be very bad for that to happen), but if the Fermi arrives and smacks ATI upside the head, you'll still be here with some worthless rationale. It'll be heat or price or whatever.

TBH, I understand your position. If 2 Fermi GPUs are even close to as fast or faster than your 4 ATI GPUs, well, let's just say I probably wouldn't be very happy either.

PS : Just checked NCIX - Still no 5970s, so your "yields are no longer an issue" statement is FOS.

Xion X2
01-29-10, 09:59 PM
You are dealing in baseless speculation....

...if Fermi is as fast as has been hinted at and priced competitively, all will be forgiven and your "devoted" ATI users will be selling/ditching their 5xxx series cards in droves.

If you're going to accuse others of "baseless speculation", then you should probably avoid tossing gems like this out there yourself.

Why the hell would anyone who owns a 5970 (aside from yourself, apparently,) be so eager to ditch it for a lower performing card, which Fermi appears to be at this point? The cases that come to mind are those who just want a single GPU or those who just prefer to own Nvidia because of their drivers or general fandom for the company. But neither of these represent the majority or fit into your "droves" description. Majority public opinion appears to be just the opposite as the 5xxx series has been praised since launch by both professional reviews and users who have owned Nvidia in the past.

Slytat
01-29-10, 10:01 PM
If you're going to accuse others of "baseless speculation", then you should probably avoid tossing gems like this out there yourself.

Why the hell would anyone who owns a 5970 (aside from yourself, apparently,) be so eager to ditch it for a lower performing card, which Fermi appears to be at this point? The cases that come to mind are those who just want a single GPU or those who just prefer to own Nvidia because of their drivers or general fandom for the company. But neither of these represent the majority or fit into your "droves" description. Majority public opinion appears to be just the opposite as the 5xxx series has been praised since launch by both professional reviews and users who have owned Nvidia in the past.

I said if not when so stop looking for a reason to argue with me - I'd actually prefer it if you just put me on ignore.

BTW, Slawter is also ditching his 5970 so I guess it's not just me.