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Xion X2
01-29-10, 10:13 PM
I said if not when so stop looking for a reason to argue with me - I'd actually prefer it if you just put me on ignore.

BTW, Slawter is also ditching his 5970 so I guess it's not just me.

It doesn't matter that you said "if", and I'm not looking for a reason to argue with you, you overdefensive little *#&@#.

Drop your battered wife complex for a second and try to reason with me.

My point was not that you were claiming Fermi was as fast (I know that you said "if); the point was that "if" it was as fast as has been hinted, which is still slower than 5970, that you still said that 5xxx owners would be "ditching their cards in droves" to go with Nvidia.

Pass your magic 8 ball along so I can revel in its wisdom.

News flash: You and slawter don't represent the majority. Most users will not swap a faster card for a slower card--especially one they've spent 600+ on.

Slytat
01-29-10, 10:14 PM
It doesn't matter that you said "if", and I'm not looking for a reason to argue with you, you overdefensive little *#&@#.

Drop your battered wife complex for a second and try to reason with me.

My point was not that you were claiming Fermi was as fast (I know that you said "if); the point was that "if" it was as fast as has been hinted, which is still slower than 5970, that you still said that 5xxx owners would be "ditching their cards in droves" to go with Nvidia.

Pass your magic 8 ball along so I can revel in its wisdom.

News flash: You and slawter don't represent the majority. Most users will not swap a faster card for a slower card--especially one they've spent 600+ on.

More insults.

You need to tone down the aggression.

I won't be responding to you anymore.

Good luck.

Xion X2
01-29-10, 10:18 PM
You need to tone down the aggression.

Likewise. You like to call people out for doing the same thing you are which is defending your decisions very passionately. You've been in more arguments than anyone on this forum for the past few weeks, I'd bet.

I won't be responding to you anymore.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/546/waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.jpg

shadow001
01-29-10, 10:53 PM
You can type till your fingers fall off, I still don't like their current offerings and I've sold them on.

ATI has won nothing until Fermi is released, when that happens, we'll see who has the better hardware. If Nvidia had released first, I wouldn't be declaring them the winner by default, I'd want to see what ATI was offering as well, even if it meant waiting. It's very telling that you are already declaring "winners" and "losers".


That is likely the largest pile of bull i've ever heard,since i still remember the huge amount of flak when the shoe was on the other foot,and it was Nvidia beating ATI to the punch with the first DX10 card on the market,and it was ATI's turn to release a massively delayed card and it ended up not performing well enough to beat the 8800GTX,released over 6 months earlier,and you still ignored the common points between both of course.


1:The R600 was ATI's first DX10 GPU(so is Fermi with regards to DX11 from Nvidia).
2:The R600 was delayed by at least 6 months(Fermi is also late by 6 months).
3:The R600 also used a lot more power than the G80,and so does Fermi over Cypress.
4:the X2900XT actually needed a 6+8 PCI-e power connector arrangement,and so does the evaluation samples of Fermi shown at Comdex.
5:The R600 ran hot and the cooling was noisy,and it seems to be the same for Fermi.
6:ATI didn't reveal any performance figures for the X2900XT until the reviews were out,and it looks like Nvidia is doing the same thing with Fermi.
7:Permance wise,the R600 was a dissapointment and didn't beat the 8800GTX released months earlier,and that's the only thing we still don't know about Fermi.


The parallels are easy to make between both products for their respective timeframes,and what the competition had at the time,and who released their cards first,ended up being the faster card overall.



The fact is, existing Nvidia hardware is capable of playing any game on the market and by the time there are more than 5 DX11 games, Fermi will have been released. It's not so much that Nvidia is late (and they are) as ATI was early.


That's actually pretty histerical since Nvidia released their 8800GTX 3 months before Vista was even available and there were 0 games using DX10,while ATI released the HD5800 series with the DX11 patch out for Vista,being right around the time that Windows 7 was released,which of course also supports DX11 and there's actually a few games using at least some DX11 features right now,and the bottom line is ATI is making money on DX11 card sales right now,while Nvidia hasn't made a dime on Fermi sales yet.


You were saying about being too early???


You see, the difference between you and I is that if Fermi tanks, I won't try and defend Nvidia (I might well go with ATI's refresh at that point although Fermi would have to be very bad for that to happen), but if the Fermi arrives and smacks ATI upside the head, you'll still be here with some worthless rationale. It'll be heat or price or whatever.


I'm saving this quote for later use once Fermi reviews are out.....


TBH, I understand your position. If 2 Fermi GPUs are even close to as fast or faster than your 4 ATI GPUs, well, let's just say I probably wouldn't be very happy either.

PS : Just checked NCIX - Still no 5970s, so your "yields are no longer an issue" statement is FOS.

LOL,keep dreaming in color....Here's a hint,didn't you find it funny that in all the slides regarding the gaming previews released recently to all major hardware sites,they compared it to the HD5870 cards,didn't make a mention of settings used in the least,and completely ignored that the HD5970 even existed in all the Nvidia provided slides?


Fermi is going to have enough trouble dealing with a Single Cypress GPU,never mind 2 of them,and god knows when a dual GPU fermi card is going to be released if the single GPU version is giving them this much trouble to release..


Here's a funny video that used for everything really,but really puts the perspective on the current situation right now:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR45ja_fNzU

Slytat
01-29-10, 11:00 PM
That is likely the largest pile of bull i've ever heard,since i still remember the huge amount of flak when the shoe was on the other foot,and it was Nvidia beating ATI to the punch with the first DX10 card on the market,and it was ATI's turn to release a massively delayed card and it ended up not performing well enough to beat the 8800GTX,released over 6 months earlier,and you still ignored the common points between both of course.


1:The R600 was ATI's first DX10 GPU(so is Fermi with regards to DX11 from Nvidia).
2:The R600 was delayed by at least 6 months(Fermi is also late by 6 months).
3:The R600 also used a lot more power than the G80,and so does Fermi over Cypress.
4:the X2900XT actually needed a 6+8 PCI-e power connector arrangement,and so does the evaluation samples of Fermi shown at Comdex.
5:The R600 ran hot and the cooling was noisy,and it seems to be the same for Fermi.
6:ATI didn't reveal any performance figures for the X2900XT until the reviews were out,and it looks like Nvidia is doing the same thing with Fermi.
7:Permance wise,the R600 was a dissapointment and didn't beat the 8800GTX released months earlier,and that's the only thing we still don't know about Fermi.


The parallels are easy to make between both products for their respective timeframes,and what the competition had at the time,and who released their cards first,ended up being the faster card overall.

While they conveniently support YOUR arguments, they certainly don't prove anything and they are more of a "best case" for your line of thinking than anything else. I didn't ignore them, I just don't put as much stock as you do in your own "coincidence" theory.

What's bull? The fact that I would wait for both before declaring a winner? Are you telling me how I think now?



That's actually pretty histerical since Nvidia released their 8800GTX 3 months before Vista was even available and there were 0 games using DX10,while ATI released the HD5800 series with the DX11 patch out for Vista,being right around the time that Windows 7 was released,which of course also supports DX11 and there's actually a few games using at least some DX11 features right now,and the bottom line is ATI is making money on DX11 card sales right now,while Nvidia hasn't made a dime on Fermi sales yet.


You were saying about being too early???

I never said too early, I said early, big difference.

And that's entirely my point DX10 wasn't a factor then and DX11 isn't a factor now (as in the next few months). Obviously Nvidia used it then and ATI is using it now because they could/can. It's irrelevant in both cases (and still is for DX10 for the most part although I will say that DX11 looks like it might be more significant over time)




I'm saving this quote for later use once Fermi reviews are out.....

That's comedy :) If Fermi sucks I will not be happy or complimentary towards Nvidia. You're sceptical because of the way YOU think. I've already said I would likely go with ATI's refresh if Fermi is abysmal.



LOL,keep dreaming in color....Here's a hint,didn't you find it funny that in all the slides regarding the gaming previews released recently to all major hardware sites,they compared it to the HD5870 cards,didn't make a mention of settings used in the least,and completely ignored that the HD5970 even existed in all the Nvidia provided slides?


Fermi is going to have enough trouble dealing with a Single Cypress GPU,never mind 2 of them,and god knows when a dual GPU fermi card is going to be released if the single GPU version is giving them this much trouble to release..

From the few benchmarks I've seen, that is simply not the case

Again, you don't know anything definitive either way so I am not dreaming anymore than you are.



Here's a funny video that used for everything really,but really puts the perspective on the current situation right now:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR45ja_fNzU

Oh and as far as Fermi (380) vs 5970, just stop making that comparison already. Its the 395 (or whatever it ends up being called that is coming in April) that should be compared to the 5970 (not that it's going to stop anyone as it looks way better for ATI users to compare the 380 to the 5970).

shadow001
01-29-10, 11:15 PM
Oh and as far as Fermi (380) vs 5970, just stop making that comparison already. Its the 395 (or whatever it ends up being called that is coming in April) that you should compare the 5970 to (not that it's going to stop anyone as it looks way better for ATI users to compare the 380 to the 5970).



Not telling you what to think,just that i'm not dumb enough to wait for a product that long,which is an obvious sign that something isn't going well with it's development,and ATI released something as good as their latest cards.


ATI ****ed up with the R600 and the same signs are there for Fermi,so it's up to users to remain objective about it,without any favoritism either way.


If you,me or anyone else doesn't perform at their job,the boss eventually loses patience and we lose that job eventually,so it should be no different for hardware you purchase.

Slytat
01-29-10, 11:17 PM
Not telling you what to think,just that i'm not dumb enough to wait for a product that long,which is an obvious sign that something isn't going well with it's development,and ATI released something as good as their latest cards.


ATI ****ed up with the R600 and the same signs are there for Fermi,so it's up to users to remain objective about it,without any favoritism either way.


If you,me or anyone else doesn't perform at their job,the boss eventually loses patience and we lose that job eventually,so it should be no different for hardware you purchase.

I didn't wait, I bought (and subsequently sold) 3 ATI 5xxx series cards but I'm holding out for Nvidia's offerings before declaring a winner.

Just to be VERY clear - Fermi could still be an unmitigated disaster. That wouldn't be good, but it isn't out of the realm of possibilty. It could equally be a resounding success.

More delays or a paper launch would not be very confidence inspiring. I'm hoping that they manage to pull through with a good card all the same.

Johnny C
01-30-10, 12:55 AM
Here's a funny video that used for everything really,but really puts the perspective on the current situation right now:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR45ja_fNzU

I laughed sooo hard at that....thanks.....made my day....

Slytat
01-30-10, 12:57 AM
I laughed sooo hard at that....thanks.....made my day....

I'd seen it before but it's pretty damn funny :)

Redeemed
01-30-10, 01:29 AM
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/546/waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.jpg
:lol:

:hug:


:wonder:




















:bleh:

sammy sung
01-30-10, 03:54 AM
Wow,just wow :headexplode:
This thread sure as hell degenerated into the same fanboy crap as always but why am i surprised :p Nvidia better get some new hardware out the door pretty damn fast since the idle speculation and uncertainty about its features and performance seems to be getting on people's nerves.

Personally i'd say that single gpu's is where its at for me,i game at 1680x1050 so there's no need for xfire or sli.There's not a single game out now that i can't play at decent framerates/detail-levels but i also don't care as much as i used to.Dunno about fermi,i'll update when there's need for it and if ati has a better singlegpu card out at that time i will consider it.

Slytat
01-30-10, 07:57 AM
Nvidia better get some new hardware out the door pretty damn fast since the idle speculation and uncertainty about its features and performance seems to be getting on people's nerves.



You are of course correct.

I'm done with this until we actually have a released Fermi to compare (or at the very least, extensive testing from some reputable sites).

Johnny C
01-30-10, 08:54 AM
That's true and the reason why nV also has WHQL versions.
But OEMs don't care about stuff like AA support at release, texture flickering and other "minor" gaming details.
But that's important for me as an end user. So nV's beta program is the preferred solution for me.



Well I seriously don't care about FPS. I always play with vsync on at 1080p. Even last gen cards are fast enough for that most of the times. If my old SLI does 100 FPS in a game and a single 5970 does 240, both are fast enough for me.
What matters is what works and what's problematic. I don't want to deal with annoying problems...
I upgrade GFX cards for the fun of it. That's why I also got the 5970 - to try it out. But in the end I want the most issue free experience and that simply wasn't the case with ATI, again.

Don't you have a pretty unique setup tv/display combo Slawter?

gulizard
01-30-10, 09:48 AM
Actually a majority have swapped back to old video cards, especially people who were nvidia users. ATI rather they are a faster or not is just hard to get use to. For me its like a keyboard, I ended up going back to an older keyboard because I never could adapt to the new one, and the same goes for a mouse to. I may buy 2-3 different mice when mine finally goes bad. I have a 4870x2 behind me in a box. I used it for a week and went back to my nvidia card. I can't tell the difference in games, and my games look more crisp with the nvidia cards, and the colors are a lot better in windows, probably due to digital vibrance.

I think a lot of people that were nvidia fans that swapped to ATI have swapped back. Sure newegg reviews aren't always good but the majority there say the same things being said here. Crappy drivers, and lack of features that nvidia has over the ati series. nvidia is delayed but thats fine, ATI has been delayed to. To say ATI is winning is dumb. They simply are not.

Xion X2
01-30-10, 09:51 AM
Well I seriously don't care about FPS. I always play with vsync on at 1080p. Even last gen cards are fast enough for that most of the times. If my old SLI does 100 FPS in a game and a single 5970 does 240, both are fast enough for me.
What matters is what works and what's problematic. I don't want to deal with annoying problems...
I upgrade GFX cards for the fun of it. That's why I also got the 5970 - to try it out. But in the end I want the most issue free experience and that simply wasn't the case with ATI, again.

Yeah, I know, as you've stated as much.

That wasn't a slam at you but just a general statement. Most folks with 5970s are quite happy with them and aren't looking to trade them for a slower card.

On the other hand, those who are looking for an all-in-one machine that does media playback--and that they can hook up to their HDTV problem-free--may not be as happy with it as they would if they'd owned Nvidia for several years prior (I, too, have had more luck with Nvidia for non-gaming purposes, but I have a separate box that I do my video editing or media playback on so it isn't an issue for me.)

gulizard
01-30-10, 10:06 AM
Yeah, I know, as you've stated as much.

That wasn't a slam at you but just a general statement. Most folks with 5970s are quite happy with them and aren't looking to trade them for a slower card.

On the other hand, those who are looking for an all-in-one machine that does media playback--and that they can hook up to their HDTV problem-free--may not be as happy with it as they would if they'd owned Nvidia for several years prior (I, too, have had more luck with Nvidia for non-gaming purposes, but I have a separate box that I do my video editing or media playback on so it isn't an issue for me.)

If I had a Crossfire like you I'd be very happy with them. However I will be buying fermi cards..Which is why I've waited. Hopefully Fermi will be faster then ATI.

Xion X2
01-30-10, 10:15 AM
Actually a majority have swapped back to old video cards

Saying it's the "majority" is going a little far. There are a ton of guys around here right now that are still running 5xxx series cards that were running Nvidia prior.

my games look more crisp with the nvidia cards, and the colors are a lot better in windows, probably due to digital vibrance.

As a result of digital vibrance, probably. ATI also has the same option called "Avivo Color":

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3627/avivooooooooooooo2.jpg

And this, I feel, is another case of people just being so used to Nvidia that they don't want to make a change. That's fine that you're used to something. Just don't make it sound like ATI doesn't have the same functionality. A lot of the complaints I've seen around here about problems getting AA to work or lack of digital vibrance are things that would take a few minutes to figure out if the user had the patience to do so instead of just looking for a reason to go back to Nvidia. I don't understand why a lot of these guys don't find an ATI support forum to ask these questions at instead of complaining about them on an Nvidia forum. I know that Eric Demers, lead designer of the 5xxx series, hangs out on Rage3D a lot and answers questions and concerns from people all the time.

With the exception of a few more bugs in media playback, you can pretty much get the same experience from ATI as you can from Nvidia. They just implement things differently.

I do agree with slawter that ATI has more bugs in non-gaming usage but, like some others, I have a separate box for that kind of stuff. I don't see the point in using a rig that consumes up to 700-800w regularly for things that a lesser machine can do just fine.

Xion X2
01-30-10, 11:43 AM
You have to admit, that wattage amount is way over the top ;) Many CPU or GPU reviews show that they measure much less Watts, even at load, at the outlet.
When it comes to media playback, the 100-200W difference between a good HTPC and a "all-in-one" PC is probably negligible compared to the total consumption of the complete AV equipment.



I was talking about my OC'd quad Crossfire setup, not yours. And I can tell you there's certainly more than a "100-200w" difference between my gaming box and my render box. More like 300-400w.

In my opinion though, a product is good and usable when it can perform at at all times in all the usual tasks for a specific product.

My own opinion is that this is asking a lot from a computer to play everything perfectly all of the time given the mass amount of varying configurations that are out there. I admiitted just recently that I've seen a few more bugs from ATI when it comes to non-gaming use, but Nvidia has never been perfect, either. The G80 cards gave me fits in all sorts of ways, and we both know what a catastrophe 680i was. So Nvidia is not without their flaws.

In fact, I'm sitting here on a 9800GT right now that I have in my renderbox and hooked up to my 42" 1080p Toshiba, and every time that I boot Windows, the driver wants to reset back to 1920x even though I have it saved to 1280x720, which my TV is capable of, in the control panel upon shutting down. I realize the driver's probably resetting to the native res, but it's still a pain to have to reset the resolution every time that I want to surf the web.

Just a small example of one of the many bugs that are inevitable in the world of PCs. When you don't have a set standard, you're always going to have them.

Xion X2
01-30-10, 11:59 AM
Did you try using Ultramon? You can set up different profiles and assign key shortcuts to activate them or even auto-load them on startup.

Never heard of it until now. Says it's for multi-monitor support when I look it up. I'm using a single display on my renderbox; Eyefinity is set up on the gaming box. Does it work for single displays as well?

Still, I'd consider it a nuisance to have to run a 3rd party software utility just to keep my resolution set at what I save it to. The driver should take care of that, but like I said, just one of the inevitable bugs of PC usage.

Xion X2
01-30-10, 12:48 PM
Sure it works also for single display setups. But it also has features that are very useful for multi-screen setups. I'd try it with Eyefinity (not in a merged single screen mode but 3 or more separate screens) also. It's really cool for setting up your screens and working with multiple windows/apps at the same time.

btw, why don't you use your Eyefinity screens for Rendering as well? That whole screen real estate should be great for stuff like Rendering, CAD or A/V productions :)

Alright then, thanks for the suggestion. Doesn't HydraGrid do something similar to this?

My Eyefinity setup is in another room, with an office chair. I like to keep my renderbox in the den as I can usually just kick back on the couch and relax for that kind of stuff (gaming requires me to be upright and alert.)

I sit in an office chair all day at work and so like to have a break from it when I can.

gulizard
01-30-10, 12:52 PM
Saying it's the "majority" is going a little far. There are a ton of guys around here right now that are still running 5xxx series cards that were running Nvidia prior.



As a result of digital vibrance, probably. ATI also has the same option called "Avivo Color":

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3627/avivooooooooooooo2.jpg

And this, I feel, is another case of people just being so used to Nvidia that they don't want to make a change. That's fine that you're used to something. Just don't make it sound like ATI doesn't have the same functionality. A lot of the complaints I've seen around here about problems getting AA to work or lack of digital vibrance are things that would take a few minutes to figure out if the user had the patience to do so instead of just looking for a reason to go back to Nvidia. I don't understand why a lot of these guys don't find an ATI support forum to ask these questions at instead of complaining about them on an Nvidia forum. I know that Eric Demers, lead designer of the 5xxx series, hangs out on Rage3D a lot and answers questions and concerns from people all the time.

With the exception of a few more bugs in media playback, you can pretty much get the same experience from ATI as you can from Nvidia. They just implement things differently.

I do agree with slawter that ATI has more bugs in non-gaming usage but, like some others, I have a separate box for that kind of stuff. I don't see the point in using a rig that consumes up to 700-800w regularly for things that a lesser machine can do just fine.

Maybe not majority but many people. How does that sound? Many people have swapped back.

It may have the same functionality. I had never knew that though. I just like my nvidia card. I am a "Fan" of nvidia. A few extra FPS doesn't make me want to buy it any more or less.. I simply cannot adapt to ATI. With nvidia I feel like I am getting a lot more. That maybe just me, but that is why I am sticking with them.

Sazar
01-30-10, 01:50 PM
Maybe not majority but many people. How does that sound? Many people have swapped back.

It may have the same functionality. I had never knew that though. I just like my nvidia card. I am a "Fan" of nvidia. A few extra FPS doesn't make me want to buy it any more or less.. I simply cannot adapt to ATI. With nvidia I feel like I am getting a lot more. That maybe just me, but that is why I am sticking with them.

That's what being a FAN is all about :)

Don't judge other people for their choices simply because you do not agree with them as a result of your being a FAN of a specific IHV. :cool:

kaptkarl
01-30-10, 04:06 PM
Hey Xion X2, give it up arguing with these fanboys. I know it's a NVidia site, just geeze you'd think sometime they would take off thier green blinders and see things for what they are. ATI has the fastest and best cards on the market right now.....sorry but that is fact. It wasn't very long ago that NVidia was king of the hill - it's just now ATI has the honors. If I were doing a new build right now it would be ATI all the way.

It's ok to be a loyal fan to one brand or another - just saying give ATI it's due guys. Your time will come......with GF100 Fermi.......maybe.....hehe:D

Kapt

Dogmifier
01-31-10, 03:52 PM
Regardless of which is better (I find my NV cards to be better from a quality stand point (MY OPINION..I'm fine with you feeling differently)), both cards (even the 'slower' NV's (By a few frames, maybe) are great cards...

Buy what you want, don't worry about the rest....I'm buying the Fermi when it finally arrives simply because I've had the best luck with NV. ATi (According to my friends who swear by them) are great as well, I just won't be one of those buying one.

Can't we all just get along? Buy what you want, like what you want...let others
like and buy what they want?

Madpistol
01-31-10, 04:04 PM
Here's why I bought the 5870.

My last 8800 GTX and a 9800 GTX+, that were the result of the same RMA to evga twice, died. The 8800 GTX artifacted and then died, while the 9800 GTX+ wouldn't even startup or post. Has Nvidia's quality control been slipping lately, or have I just been a victim of bad luck? Either way, the 8800 GTX lasted 2 years, and the 9800 GTX+ lasted 1. That's unacceptable for high-end parts. Now, all I will buy is cards that have a lifetime warranty on them, because apparently cards nowadays need a fat warranty to ensure a long life.

From what I've read, less people have had problems with the latest generations of ATI cards than Nvidia's offerings. I don't know if that's due to quality control issues, or what, but if you research this on the internet, there are more people griping about reliability of current nvidia cards. It may be because nvidia sells more of them, but I doubt it.

Regardless of the reason, my Fiance has a 4870 512mb card in her rig, and I have a 5870 1GB card in mine. Both cards have performed admirably, and as long as they continue to perform, I will have no reason not to get ATI cards provided they remain competitive in the market.