PDA

View Full Version : No more AntiDetector on future nVidia drivers


Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5

Hanners
07-08-03, 05:03 AM
I think this all but answers the 'Will nVidia remove optimisations from their drivers any time soon?' question. :(

I just thought I'd draw everyone's attention to a comment made by Unwinder in this thread (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33696163&perpage=20&pagenumber=2) at Rage3D:

Originally posted by Unwinder at Rage3D
NVIDIA prepared to launch new 44.67 drivers, that have heavily encrypted D3D driver which decrypts itself in runtime (to tangle disassembling) and internal code checksums calculations that emulate visual artifacts if at least one byte of code is patched. Currently the company acts exactly as I've assumed in the conclusion of the article. Shame.

So, it looks like rather than take a hint and stop the cheating, nVidia are going to keep digging the hole they are in and hide themselves further away from the public gaze. Sad to see, but not unexpected. :(

deejaya
07-08-03, 05:18 AM
The benchmark optimizations are unacceptable, if they deviate from the reference. The UT2k3 "optimization" is acceptable to me, but I can understand other people not liking it.

But the detector script will remove legitimate optimizations for games, so I think nVidia have every right to block it out. It's up to them what they do with their drivers, ultimately. You can always go back to an older set of dets that aren't blocked if you want to point out optimizations, or if you aren't happy with new "optimizations" coming in future revisions. I don't think it's fair for anyone to block all optimizations for a driver, be it Catalyst or Detonator, then start posting articles on how much optimization a certain game has. Yeah, you may well uncover some "bad" optimizations, but you have no way of knowing if you didn't uncover some "good" ones too (which may have even been where the majority of optimization came from, or if the "bad" optimization was a side effect of some kind of fix).

extreme_dB
07-08-03, 05:43 AM
How is disabling trilinear filtering even when you enable it in the driver and the game considered a legitmate optimization? Nvidia forces lower quality, but does it secretively so everyone benches their products with trilinear "on" for an unfair advantage, regardless of whether the IQ difference in game play is "unnoticeable". I can't believe anyone can defend these types of actions.

Enjoy "the way it's meant to be played". :rolleyes:

XForce
07-08-03, 06:14 AM
Thanks for the heads up Hanners.

I really, REALLY wish I'd be surprised. :banghead:

scott123
07-08-03, 07:00 AM
Im running the 44.67 drivers on my 5900 U, and they are great.

euan
07-08-03, 07:16 AM
And people should ATI was the evil darkside for emulating screen corruption when people softmod'ed their 9500's...

:angel2:

Skuzzy
07-08-03, 07:19 AM
There is no such thing as 'legitimate optimizations' in the sense of detecting applications or shaders. Basically you are saying, 'ignore what the programmer wants and do what I want'.

It's wrong. The simple fact of the matter is, when I, or any other programmer, calls for a feature, it is expected it to be used. For a video card company to assume they know what is best, is just wrong. There is no other way around it.

Legimitate optimizations are done when the driver takes the request and optimizes it for thier hardware. This should be done dynamically and not favor any application. To favor an application is the completely incorrect approach.
Optimizing for hardware does not include, altering shaders or ignoring them, it does not include changing the DX pipeline to get around a feature that may cost performance, and it does not include (under any circumstances) altering the output of what the programmer intended.

NVidia's approach is to insure they can alter the code a programmer sends down the pipeline with complete impunity. Why bother programming to NVidia's product, when there is a fair chance that a next release driver will serve to circumvent all the work that the programmer put into it?
Of course, if your game/application is not used for benchmarking, or is not a top seller, then your code may be safe from NVidia's tampering.

The Baron
07-08-03, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by Unwinder at Rage3D
NVIDIA prepared to launch new 44.67 drivers, that have heavily encrypted D3D driver which decrypts itself in runtime (to tangle disassembling) and internal code checksums calculations that emulate visual artifacts if at least one byte of code is patched. Currently the company acts exactly as I've assumed in the conclusion of the article. Shame.
...

...

You'd think they could just spend effort on enabling an Application Detection tab in the driver. Giving people the option. You know, stuff that would make them look good.

I grow less and less surprised every day.

gstanford
07-08-03, 07:49 AM
Whinge, whinge whinge...

If you don't like what nVidia is doing, go buy an ATi product and use that instead. While you are at it, piss off to Rage3d and leave those who want to use nVidia products in peace.

StealthHawk
07-08-03, 07:52 AM
No big surprise, I expected their next driver to disable the anti-detection patch script. Oh well, we can still test older drivers to see what games nvidia is optimizing in, and whether or not visual quality is affected.

Grechie
07-08-03, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
Whinge, whinge whinge...

If you don't like what nVidia is doing, go buy an ATi product and use that instead. While you are at it, piss off to Rage3d and leave those who want to use nVidia products in peace.

w0rd:cool:

Hanners
07-08-03, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
Whinge, whinge whinge...

If you don't like what nVidia is doing, go buy an ATi product and use that instead. While you are at it, piss off to Rage3d and leave those who want to use nVidia products in peace.

Don't you think this information is of interest to people who have paid good money for nVidia cards, and aren't even be allowed to find out the true performance of their card, or use the settings they select in games or the driver control panel?

I also wonder what the possible fallout of this encryption will be for people who want to write or use tweaking software for their nVidia card....

reever2
07-08-03, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
Whinge, whinge whinge...

If you don't like what nVidia is doing, go buy an ATi product and use that instead. While you are at it, piss off to Rage3d and leave those who want to use nVidia products in peace.

What the heck is winge?

Hanners
07-08-03, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by reever2
What the heck is winge?

Whinge = Complain

extreme_dB
07-08-03, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
Whinge, whinge whinge...

If you don't like what nVidia is doing, go buy an ATi product and use that instead. While you are at it, piss off to Rage3d and leave those who want to use nVidia products in peace.

Oh, so let's not complain at all, on a discussion forum of all places, and just accept whatever tactics IHVs use when their products are not winning benchmarks as expected, so that these practices can potentially become the norm. :rolleyes:

Why don't YOU piss off and start your own corporate worship site where customers are not allowed to criticize?

I AM a current user of Nvidia products, and I WILL buy ATI next, and I will continue to post valid criticisms where I see fit.

gstanford
07-08-03, 08:08 AM
As long as a game performs well, looks good and isn't buggy I could care less how it is coded or what optimizations are used.

Actually I think that ATi becoming competitive will be a good thing for nVidia. The downfall of S3, 3DFX and hibernation of Matrox has meant that many people who would ordinarily have never bought nVidia cards ended up having to buy one to get the performance they desired.

A lot of these people, especially the ex-3dfx'ers have never really seemed truly comfortable with nVidia. I think it is good that now they don't have to purchase nVidia products if they don't want to.

nVidida does not need these consumers - we beat the competition without them, let them go elsewhere if thats what they want.

extreme_dB
07-08-03, 08:17 AM
And consumers that prefer Nvidia and expect settings to actually work when enabled can just stay quiet and cheer them on no matter what, right?

There's a difference between brand loyalty and blind, ignorant fanboyism.

gstanford
07-08-03, 08:25 AM
Every company has at least on black spot in their history.

NV3x is nVidia's.

Still won't stop me from purchasing one.

It won't stop nVidia from releasing kick ass chips in the future either.

I look at NV3x like TNT-1 (I own one of them as well) - it's the raw beginning of a new family of GPU's.

And for any disgruntled nVidia users out there that want to go ATi next time - why wait? I gaurantee your current cards will sell fast and at a good profit on ebay/elsewhere.

Behemoth
07-08-03, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Skuzzy
There is no such thing as 'legitimate optimizations' in the sense of detecting applications or shaders. Basically you are saying, 'ignore what the programmer wants and do what I want'.

if you can prove that there is not such thing as 'legitimate optimizations' in the sense of detecting applications or shaders, i bet i can use your proof to prove there is no such thing as 'legitimate optimizations' in any sense.

The Baron
07-08-03, 08:51 AM
There is no such thing as 'legitimate optimizations' in the sense of detecting applications or shaders. Basically you are saying, 'ignore what the programmer wants and do what I want'.
Well, you could use the bug fix argument, but meh, that doesn't really apply here.

However, I still think there should be a Big Fat Window where you can toggle individual cheats/optimizations/whatever you want to call them for individual applications.

extreme_dB
07-08-03, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
Every company has at least on black spot in their history.

NV3x is nVidia's.

Still won't stop me from purchasing one.

It won't stop nVidia from releasing kick ass chips in the future either.

I look at NV3x like TNT-1 (I own one of them as well) - it's the raw beginning of a new family of GPU's.

And for any disgruntled nVidia users out there that want to go ATi next time - why wait? I gaurantee your current cards will sell fast and at a good profit on ebay/elsewhere.

Who cares about black spots in a company's history? Problems eventually fade into history and become irrelevant for the present and future. Right now, Nvidia has got some serious problems with current products, and consumers have every right to voice their concerns and disapproval to get them to change.

Nvidia's conduct in the past year is indefensible. Their current products aren't bad, not at all, but Nvidia is misrepresenting them just because the competition is stronger in some areas. Doing so is only hurting their customer's experience with their products. You don't see Matrox cheating to make their products look more appealing - they are what they are. A customer can know the advantages and disadvantages to make an informed decision.

I can't believe how you're not only supporting Nvidia's recent wrongdoings, but bashing those who aren't! Can't you distinguish between the actual merits of their products, and the aspects that are purely negative and detrimental to potential customers?

Hanners
07-08-03, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
nVidida does not need these consumers - we beat the competition without them, let them go elsewhere if thats what they want.

'We beat the competition without them'?

Was that a slip of the tongue, or do you actually work for nVidia?

The Baron
07-08-03, 09:08 AM
Bad mojo is rising here. Already deleted one post, so let's not let it go too far.

(and if you want to call me a big meanie, meh, PM me)

stop pming me now. really.

The Baron
07-08-03, 09:57 AM
well, they called me a big meanie.

in spades.

so, I reopen this. As soon as it gets flamey, boom, it closes.

gstanford
07-08-03, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Hanners
'We beat the competition without them'?

Was that a slip of the tongue, or do you actually work for nVidia?

No, I don't work for nVidia, though I'd like to. Huang and I share pretty much the same viewpoint as far as running a company successfully goes.

What I meant was, we, the consumers who bought nVidia products made the company what it is today.

And it is the consumers who will see nVidia through the current tight spot. Even if every enthusiast on the planet switched to ATi, that is only 15% of the total video card market.

No matter how successful Ati is with R3xx they won't outsell nVidia anytime soon.

It doesn't really matter how much better ATi is or isn't than nVidia - developers will develop for the most common cards out there. That's nVidia and will remain nVidia for the forseeable future.