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StealthHawk
07-08-03, 10:29 PM
We've heard from many people what nvidia shouldn't be doing, but what do you guys think nvidia should do to make amends?

Your thoughts, please.

gstanford
07-08-03, 10:34 PM
First of all you need a general consensus from the computing world at large, not just enthusiasts that nVidia's reputation is broken in the first place...

Rogozhin
07-08-03, 10:38 PM
Asking for empirical evidence hum gs?

Never can give it though.

rogo

Rogozhin
07-08-03, 10:40 PM
If I remember your posts correctly I believe that your perception of the computing world at large is that of idoicy, therefore why would you even propose to use their perception of nvidia's actions as a premise for your conclusion?

rogo

walkndude
07-08-03, 10:42 PM
Why such hostility just because he has a different point of view...


Count me in with the idiots btw.

extreme_dB
07-08-03, 10:53 PM
So now it's all about semantics hehe. I think we all realize that Stealth is talking about the enthusiast community/informed industry professionals.

Slappi
07-08-03, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Rogozhin
If I remember your posts correctly I believe that your perception of the computing world at large is that of idoicy, therefore why would you even propose to use their perception of nvidia's actions as a premise for your conclusion?

rogo

I really don't like to correct people's grammar but........ if you are going to refer to someone or something they have done as being stupid, dumb, idiotic, moronic or such at least spell the word right. Ok? Thanks.

DSC
07-08-03, 11:41 PM
1) Release hardware with highest image quality, doesn't matter if it's slightly slower than the competition

2) Solicit active feedback on the drivers, like ATI does atm at Rage3d

3) Stop the dubious "optimizations" that reduce image quality or subvert what the original programmers write

4) Stop the terrible "damage control" PR statements which obviously isn't working

The Baron
07-09-03, 12:12 AM
Three things.

1. Fix AA on NV40. Everybody wants it, and it would shut everybody up.

2. Have driver team members more active in the community. Andy Mecham is all well and good, but that's only for Linux.

3. The big one. Adopt a TiVo-like attitude about people monkeying with the technology. Add more enthusiast stuff. The company that makes TiVo (I forget right now) takes a completely laissez-faire approach to modding the TiVo. They don't endorse it, it voids your warranty, they don't sell them, but they let it happen and they don't make it impossibly hard to do so. And guess what? People buy TiVos because of it. If NVIDIA were to add sections in the control panel that were enthusiast-oriented (accessible only through a registry tweak), e.g., one that allows individual application optimizations to be switched on and off, you would not see this huge outburst among the enthusiasts. Hell, I would bet my computer that you would see them supporting NVIDIA in a way that no computer company has been supported since 3dfx.

Will it ever happen? Meh. I can hope.

gstanford
07-09-03, 12:18 AM
The part about putting driver tweaks for enthusiasts in is precisely what I suggested a while back in an earlier thread and got howled down by stealthhawk and the fanATIcs for suggesting.

I still think it is the best way to go.

Nv40
07-09-03, 12:21 AM
what can Nvidia do to FIx ,any possible bad reputation ?
what they are already Doing. with good quality drivers ,great stability and performance with great IQ. latest 44.67 DEtonators drivers ROcks! :)

saturnotaku
07-09-03, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
The part about putting driver tweaks for enthusiasts in is precisely what I suggested a while back in an earlier thread and got howled down by stealthhawk and the fanATIcs for suggesting.

I still think it is the best way to go.

And I predict that if ATI did this, it would be hailed as the greatest thing since silicon was put to PCB. :rolleyes:

Sazar
07-09-03, 01:14 AM
denial is the main problem... denial that their competitor has a good product... denial that there are issues in benchmarking that have caused a ruckus around the web for months... denial that PERHAPS the PR department may be a little off the mark when it comes to hyping products...

once the denial is no more... a new nvidia revolution perhaps will come about... fueled by the sucess of a new gpu that works brilliantly... performs to pr standars or a good percentage thereof and competes well with competitor products w.o people having to question the drivers and whether there is cheating ongoing...

GlowStick
07-09-03, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by Sazar
denial is the main problem... denial that their competitor has a good product... denial that there are issues in benchmarking that have caused a ruckus around the web for months... denial that PERHAPS the PR department may be a little off the mark when it comes to hyping products...

I rember quotes of Jen-Hsung saying "ati has a good product" if thats denying it, i guess so.

The only thing nvidia needs is to get the products out of the door before ATi, and also help out the people with PowerPC's drivers.

CaptNKILL
07-09-03, 02:04 AM
Well, I for one dont see any reason to involve any sort of "feelings" in this whole fiasco, simply because its a corporation, not a close freind or family member. Too many people around here take Nvidias (crappy) marketing tactics as a personal slap in the face. If you feel "betrayed" or "lead astray" by Nvidia, you are just getting WAAAY too involved in this whole thing. What they did was lie to gain market share, not to betray you... so dont ask them to kiss and make up.

BUT, I do think that they have hurt the hardware market in general by pretty much canceling themselves out as competition. Think about it, what was the last card (other than the 5900 Ultra) that they released that actually consistantly competed with ATI's on a price\performance level? The 5200s arent competition for ATIs similarly priced cards, same with the 5600... heck, Nvidia doesnt even HAVE a card to compete with the $200-$300 range! This is limiting our choices a great deal. I want to upgrade pretty soon, and as it is, my only choices are a 9800np and a 9700 Pro! The 9700 Pro is being discontinued, so that leaves me with only one "choice"! Then of course, there was the 5800.... that was NEVER competition because they probably produced like 8 total 5800 cores (joking) over the course of its short life time.

And the benchmark cheating\lieing.... again, its not a personal thing, it was just a quick attempt at gaining some ground. But it was sloppy and it made their cards look even worse... which FURTHER hurt the market for Nvidia cards. If you didnt want an Nvidia card before the cheating, you REALLY didnt want one after it.

They pretty much took away our Nvidia choice by making things LOOK bad (by cheating\optimizing), RUN bad (underperforming cards), and cost too much.

So, basicly, what I want is for Nvidia to increase the incentive to buy nvidia cards!!! Lower the prices!!! Make them an obvious choice over ATIs!!! No amount of "SORRY!!"s is going to make the 5900 more worth the $360. They either have to make the cards a lot faster with drivers, WITH NO LOSS IN QUALITY (I really doubt this) or make them cost less.

Thats my point of view at least...

Im not the kind to take it personally. I dont care if NVidia continues to call their cheats "optimizations". I know they cheated, and so do most people who care. But when they charge more for less, and hurt the market, I complain.

Sazar
07-09-03, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by GlowStick
I rember quotes of Jen-Hsung saying "ati has a good product" if thats denying it, i guess so.

The only thing nvidia needs is to get the products out of the door before ATi, and also help out the people with PowerPC's drivers.

remember the rest of the quote ?

the whole smoking something halucinagenic thing ? SAME sentence init ? not denial you say... I dunno...

ati has always had good silicon... or for the most part had good silicon... it is about time the driver team caught up to the rest of the team :)

bkswaney
07-09-03, 02:37 AM
They are not hurt in the first place.
We are a very small handful of people.

Most people I've ask have no idea what I'm talking about.
They have never heard of driver cheating.
They buy only nvidia cards. About like they only use Windows. :)

Typedef Enum
07-09-03, 02:40 AM
Here's a real original one...

1. Just execute.

2. No paper launches...

3. Don't deceive. Tell it like it is. (4x1 or 8x1?)

4. Listen to the community for once...just once.

5. Can the entire PR department. I think every one of them are as responsible as the crappy engineering that has emerged from this outfit.

6. No more BS with your drivers. Stop it...just stop it.

7. Just once, is it possible for you guys to use an ounce of that 3dfx technology that is 10x more superior to what you've got with the NV35? You know I'm referring to AA.

8. Become more active. I have now read about 3 solid, kick ass interviews with actual ATI engineers doing implementation work, and they have been _far_ more enlightening than all the nVidia supposedly "tech-like" articles combined. They're making a very serious effort to get in touch with people, and nVidia seems to go well out of their way in building a 10 foot wall.

9. Next time, just say, "They got us this time around. However, we're hard at work ensuring that we'll come out as the clear champ the next go round."

gstanford
07-09-03, 02:43 AM
And the benchmark cheating\lieing.... again, its not a personal thing, it was just a quick attempt at gaining some ground. But it was sloppy and it made their cards look even worse... which FURTHER hurt the market for Nvidia cards. If you didnt want an Nvidia card before the cheating, you REALLY didnt want one after it.
I don't know why you feel nVidia's market has been hurt. Since the launch of NV30 in september, nVidia has gained, not lost market share.

The only dumb thing they did IMO was push NV30 too hard at the beginning and not NV34 hard enough.

If nVidia had demonstrated NV30 at comdex and said there is still problems with the silicon, but in the meantime we are launching NV34 to the masses, a lot of the fuss would never have happened.

Basically nVidia over reacted to to R300 when there was no real need to react to it or acknowledge it at all. One of their rare mistakes.

StealthHawk
07-09-03, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
The part about putting driver tweaks for enthusiasts in is precisely what I suggested a while back in an earlier thread and got howled down by stealthhawk and the fanATIcs for suggesting.

I still think it is the best way to go.

What you suggested was not driver "tweaking," it was breaking of standards.

And when you make statements like this is it any wonder why people consider you unreasonable? Like I said before - ATi could outperform nVidia a million to one - I could not care less.

My next card will be a nVidia product (probably a 5600U), regardless of whether anyone in this or any other forum thinks me foolish or not, regardless of cost vs ATi.

ATi, Matrox, S3, SiS, etc do not even exist as far as I'm concerned when considering my next card. Your mileage may vary.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=143445#post143445

gstanford
07-09-03, 03:12 AM
So what!? It would be a user choice to break the standard or not.

Who are you to say how people can and cannot run the hardware they buy with their own money?

edit: for the benefit of ninja prime, trying to twist my words around will get you nowhere. The suggestion I and the baron made in this thread was that nVidia would supply driver tweaks to enable the users to run their cards in the mode they want. Nothing was said about illegally hacking nVidia's intellectual property - that is both wrong and illegal, and no, i don't support it.

StealthHawk
07-09-03, 03:19 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
So what!? It would be a user choice to break the standard or not.

Who are you to say how people can and cannot run the hardware they buy with their own money?

I've already given you reasons why I consider driver baggage to be bad.


Why in the world do you people have to drag in all this off-topic bull**** into this thread? This thread was created for one reason and one reason only. Someone I respect gave me the topic idea and asked if I would create the thread. Since it is interesting, I obliged that person. Why in the world we have non-constructive posts popping up is beyond me.

You single handedly caused the next five posts after yours to spiral into digression.

:banghead:

Ninja Prime
07-09-03, 03:20 AM
Who are you to say how people can and cannot run the hardware they buy with their own money?

Actually, I believe it was you that said in another thread that people shouldn't be able to make hacks that turn off Nvidia's cheats... i.e. running their hardware the way they want.

Better get on that backwards bike and pedel as hard as you can, maybe you can go back in time and change what you said...

CaptNKILL
07-09-03, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
I don't know why you feel nVidia's market has been hurt. Since the launch of NV30 in september, nVidia has gained, not lost market share.

The only dumb thing they did IMO was push NV30 too hard at the beginning and not NV34 hard enough.

If nVidia had demonstrated NV30 at comdex and said there is still problems with the silicon, but in the meantime we are launching NV34 to the masses, a lot of the fuss would never have happened.

Basically nVidia over reacted to to R300 when there was no real need to react to it or acknowledge it at all. One of their rare mistakes.
I wasnt necisarilly talking about Market share in that instance... Im just short on vocabulary at the moment :D

I meant the popularity of Nvidia cards... Besides, im sure 75% of Nvidias market share comes from 3 year old hardware and OEMs.

Ninja Prime
07-09-03, 03:39 AM
trying to twist my words around will get you nowhere


How am I twisting your words, there is only one meaning to that sentence, and your veiws oppose said meaning. Thus, you are a hypocrit. Pretty simple.

BTW, it appears it was nv40 that said that, but you've just said the same thing yourself in this thread so...

edit2: Hey look, I can edit in bold too!