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Hellbinder
07-10-03, 11:52 AM
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDkw

While it has taken Nvidia the better part of a year to catch up.. at this point it looks like the Fx product line is *overall* a smoother better Equiped slope from top to bottom.

For sure at the Top end Ati Is still king (IMO). But once you hit the middle and especially the lower middle and low Budget cards Nvidias Products just completely outclass anything ATi is offering now.

It is begining to look like ATi's Marketing department may have missed the boat by going with the dx8 8500 based Rv280 for the low end market. I just cant see any reason on earth except for Blind Fanboyism to get anything but an Nvidia card at the sub $100 level. It is even a little Questionable when looking at the 9600 Vs 5600 contest.

This is looking like Nvidia is going to mantain their marketshare in the mainstream yet again... sooner or later I hope that ATi actually Nails it all the way not just one section of the market at a time.

DSC
07-10-03, 11:55 AM
Well, NV36/FX5700 is coming soon. The mainstream/midrange market is gonna get a little bit more crowded soon. More choices, more power to the consumer. :D

Hellbinder
07-10-03, 12:00 PM
Well, NV36/FX5700 is coming soon. The mainstream/midrange market is gonna get a little bit more crowded soon. More choices, more power to the consumer

Yeah *but* in septemberish you are going to see new cards from ATi also for the high and mid range. So imo the fx 5700 wont really be that big of a deal as far as getting Nvidia any real seperation.

However, The Question still remains as to what Ati is going to do at the low end. If it were me i think i would drop 2 pipelines or cut some core clock and ram and offer the Rv360 all the way down to a 50$ card.

But we'll see what happens.

PreservedSwine
07-10-03, 12:01 PM
How do you tell the 128bit bus version of the FX5200 from the 64bit Bus? They are both non-ultra, right?

5150 Joker
07-10-03, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDkw

While it has taken Nvidia the better part of a year to catch up.. at this point it looks like the Fx product line is *overall* a smoother better Equiped slope from top to bottom.

For sure at the Top end Ati Is still king (IMO). But once you hit the middle and especially the lower middle and low Budget cards Nvidias Products just completely outclass anything ATi is offering now.

It is begining to look like ATi's Marketing department may have missed the boat by going with the dx8 8500 based Rv280 for the low end market. I just cant see any reason on earth except for Blind Fanboyism to get anything but an Nvidia card at the sub $100 level. It is even a little Questionable when looking at the 9600 Vs 5600 contest.

This is looking like Nvidia is going to mantain their marketshare in the mainstream yet again... sooner or later I hope that ATi actually Nails it all the way not just one section of the market at a time.


nVidia knows where the money is and they have a stronghold on that segment of the market. ATi will never learn...

CaptNKILL
07-10-03, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDkw

While it has taken Nvidia the better part of a year to catch up.. at this point it looks like the Fx product line is *overall* a smoother better Equiped slope from top to bottom.

For sure at the Top end Ati Is still king (IMO). But once you hit the middle and especially the lower middle and low Budget cards Nvidias Products just completely outclass anything ATi is offering now.

It is begining to look like ATi's Marketing department may have missed the boat by going with the dx8 8500 based Rv280 for the low end market. I just cant see any reason on earth except for Blind Fanboyism to get anything but an Nvidia card at the sub $100 level. It is even a little Questionable when looking at the 9600 Vs 5600 contest.

This is looking like Nvidia is going to mantain their marketshare in the mainstream yet again... sooner or later I hope that ATi actually Nails it all the way not just one section of the market at a time.

When you look at the graphs, SURE some cards look faster than others, but look at the actual frame rates in the newer games! UT2K3: 40fps at 1024x768!?!?!?!? They really should show frame rates with LOWER AF settings when the framerates unplayable with 8x AF. 40 constant is fine, but 40 average isnt. The minimum framerate in those averages is probably less than 20.

Theres a point where benchmarks matter, and theres a point where they dont. If the cards do fine in last-gen games (SS2 and Q3 engine games) thats good, but if you were buying a card right now, wouldnt you want it to play the games that come out in the next 6 months? Obviously, yes.

They should have benchmarked with more reasonable settings in the newer games..... UT2K3 and Splinter Cell are pretty much useless benchmarks, because both cards suck when 8x AF is enabled... wheres the decision there?

Hellbinder
07-10-03, 12:52 PM
Good point CK.

They should have tested with 2x AA 4x AF for the *Quality* settings. The settings they use dont make much sense at all for the low end.

The Baron
07-10-03, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by PreservedSwine
How do you tell the 128bit bus version of the FX5200 from the 64bit Bus? They are both non-ultra, right?
The 128-bit version has 8 memory chips rather than 4.

My review of the Soltek vanilla 5200 should be up very soon (Mike's been busy trying to get his new system up, so he hasn't been able to finish his editing/correcting my piss-poor graphs :p ). You know, the more I use it, the better I feel about it.

It is going to be *THE* OEM chip. Is it fast? Meh, no. But, you can run most things at lower resolutions just fine, and the fact that most cards come with 250Mhz RAM that's clocked at 200 doesn't hurt either. Is it a smart buy for somebody looking to play Doom 3 and HL2 at decent resolutions? No. But, if you're going to use TV-out only or don't mind running at 800x600 without AA or AF, it should be fine.

Hell... the driver "optimizations" make SENSE for the 5200. It's a slow card, yeah, so sacrificing a small bit of quality for quite a bit of speed (like in UT2k3) is fine; on the high end, that's unacceptable, but on the low end? Meh, why not?

And yes, I have benchies with 2xAA 4xAF at both 640x480 and 1024 using the Quality setting. UT2k3, don't have Splinter Cell. Probably need to pick it up.

From what I can remember, 8xAF is something like a 20% performance hit, and 2xAA is like 15%. But, increasing the memory from 200 to 250 gives about a 15% performance increase to boot.

Soo... not a bad choice.

Hmm.... GAMING BINGE! :D

surfhurleydude
07-10-03, 01:34 PM
IMO, all of the low end stuff is trash except for the Ti4200, the 9500 Pro, and the 9600 Pro.

The Baron
07-10-03, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by surfhurleydude
IMO, all of the low end stuff is trash except for the Ti4200, the 9500 Pro, and the 9600 Pro.
None of that is low-end. Ti4200 is cheap just because there are leftover quantities.

rokzy
07-10-03, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by surfhurleydude
IMO, all of the low end stuff is trash except for the Ti4200, the 9500 Pro, and the 9600 Pro.

lol since when is 9500 pro low end?

surfhurleydude
07-10-03, 01:39 PM
None of that is low-end. Ti4200 is cheap just because there are leftover quantities.

I can get a Ti4200 for about the same price as I can a GeForce FX 5200...Sorry, I meant Radeon 9500, not the pro one... and I can get that for about as much as a 5200 as well. It doesn't really matter to me if the Ti4200 consists of "leftover quantities" because as it is now, it's pretty much just as easy to buy one of those as it is to buy a GeForce FX 5200. You can't disqualify a card just because it's "discontinued". I mean damn, if that was true, nobody would still be recommending the Radeon 9700 Pro left and right like they are. OH, and how about that old Radeon 9100? May be left over quantities, but it still is cheap and KICKS ASS!

The Baron
07-10-03, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by surfhurleydude
I can get a Ti4200 for about the same price as I can a GeForce FX 5200...Sorry, I meant Radeon 9500, not the pro one... and I can get that for about as much as a 5200 as well. It doesn't really matter to me if the Ti4200 consists of "leftover quantities" because as it is now, it's pretty much just as easy to buy one of those as it is to buy a GeForce FX 5200. You can't disqualify a card just because it's "discontinued". I mean damn, if that was true, nobody would still be recommending the Radeon 9700 Pro left and right like they are. OH, and how about that old Radeon 9100? May be left over quantities, but it still is cheap and KICKS ASS!
I think you missed the entire point of Hellbinder's post. These cards aren't for end-users--they're for OEMs. And for bottom-of-the-barrel OEM cards, they are fantastic.

So yes, I CAN qualify a card if it's discontinued.

Geforce4ti4200
07-10-03, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by PreservedSwine
How do you tell the 128bit bus version of the FX5200 from the 64bit Bus? They are both non-ultra, right?


I believe ram chips come in either 16 or 32mb, so the 64mb cards have 4 16mb chips and all are 64 bit. the 256mb's have 8 32mb chips so all are 128 bits. the 128mb cards, avoid those with 4 chips like the plague! the 8 chips are fine :)

GlowStick
07-10-03, 06:14 PM
Heh, it looks like they boht suck at the same level? witch one is cheepr?

But i really do like the fx5200 for being able to have 2 monitors. Id buy it so i can have 2 monitors on a low end system for web browsing.

ja18
07-10-03, 08:06 PM
heh yeah its pretty good for the dual monitor.... and its also pretty damn cool for being able to run vulcan well i should say pretty damn hot.:D http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/geforce0/vulcan.JPG

surfhurleydude
07-10-03, 08:13 PM
I think you missed the entire point of Hellbinder's post. These cards aren't for end-users--they're for OEMs. And for bottom-of-the-barrel OEM cards, they are fantastic.

So yes, I CAN qualify a card if it's discontinued.

The only problem is that it's still easier to find GeForce 4 Ti cards in OEMs than it is GeForce FX cards!!! Gateway won't even offer GeForce FX class cards in its desktop systems... It's either ATi's top of the line offerings, GeForce 4 Ti, or integrated... And for OEMs, integrated is the PREFERRED choice for lower end computers. And if the GeForce FX 5200 will be offered in a new nForce model that will go mainstream shortly, then yes they are "fantastic"... However, considering many of the huge OEMs offer an all or nothing package (i.e. like noted before, you either get integrated with no AGP or mid/top of the line GPU), I just can't see how these are "fantastic".

StealthHawk
07-10-03, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
It is begining to look like ATi's Marketing department may have missed the boat by going with the dx8 8500 based Rv280 for the low end market. I just cant see any reason on earth except for Blind Fanboyism to get anything but an Nvidia card at the sub $100 level. It is even a little Questionable when looking at the 9600 Vs 5600 contest.

ATI missed the boat with the whole r9600/Pro line too. Too low performing, could have, and should have, been clocked higher.

Hellbinder
07-10-03, 09:35 PM
Yep.. I have no earthly idea what ATi Was thinking with the 9600pro. It was *ok* when there was nothing else out there... but now...

It does have better DX9 performance than the Fx class but thats about it. That card had absolutly no business whatsoever getting released at anything less than about 425/425. Then the 9600 non pro could go at 350/350. The low end should be a 9600 card clocked at 300/300 or 250/300.

Hellbinder
07-10-03, 09:38 PM
ok a side note that performance issue with the 9600pro and non pro is about to be rectified.. in the not to distant future ;)

EMunEeE
07-10-03, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
ok a side note that performance issue with the 9600pro and non pro is about to be rectified.. in the not to distant future ;)

Give us details...what would they name it...9650...lol...or maybe its clocked at 500/500...or maybe its 8x1....who nows..:eek:

reever2
07-10-03, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Yep.. I have no earthly idea what ATi Was thinking with the 9600pro. It was *ok* when there was nothing else out there... but now...


because it saved Ati money. Almost every tech company makes moves like that

Hellbinder
07-10-03, 09:58 PM
Not that much money...

GlowStick
07-10-03, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by reever2
because it saved Ati money. Almost every tech company makes moves like that

Yeah, from the marketing side i can see what they were doing.

SUre it preforms lesser than a 9500pro, but it costs less, ive seen some online retailers have em really cheep.

Skynet
07-10-03, 10:24 PM
But the point is well taken, ATI pulls another boner. Why in Gods name do they do such stupid things over and over again? I just don't understand. They are destined to be #2 (I don't count Intel) forever.