PDA

View Full Version : Nvidia may be in trouble according to this article


Pages : 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8

Johnny C
02-21-10, 01:52 PM
I just wanna see some #'s....either I get another 5870 or a couple of 480's :headexplode:

Me too....

Sazar
02-21-10, 02:14 PM
And with each click he can tell his owners (ATi) that he served them well. :ass:

I don't have Fermi card yet, but Charlie's article doesn't make me feel bad about the prospect even if every word is true.

Here's why:

5% faster overall than a HD5870: 5870s are very fast cards, 5% faster wouldn't suck. It would be approximately the speed of a GTX295, which would be in line with pretty much every other next gen launch I can remember. (little faster in some games, little slower in others than last gen SLi)

Double the DX11 performance of a 5870: that speaks for itself, just amazing. If single chip NV offers double chip ATi DX11, imagine what double chip NV will offer? ZOMG

Hotter: Yawn. I'm a freaking enthusiast. I don't try to stuff my expensive parts into an old Compaq desktop case with one fan.

Power: Again yawn. For the same reasons I have good cases, I have good power supplies. I advise all people who want to run high end graphics and CPUs to do the same. ;)

Cost/losing money: As much as I like my buddies at NVIDIA, I won't lose sleep if they lose money selling consumer GTX480s at first. My guess is a. they'll figure a way to make money anyway, perhaps with those excellent Quadros that totally own the professional market b. they'll make more money with each revision c. the closer they are to ATi pricing, the more cards they'll sell as they are the market leader with the name recognition in the masses anyway.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. I bet if someone was REALLY bored they could go through my old posts find me "predicting" that when Fermi launches, ATi guys will be back to saying "NVIDIA cards cost too much to make! NVIDIA cards are too hot!"

Guess I can see the future, just like Charlie. :rolleyes:

And posts like this REALLY make me miss Chris more. Your posts crap on his memory and the good he did to the community Rollo. I really wish you would take that into consideration everytime you go into one of you "us against them" modes.

I am still waiting to see how Fermi does, personally, but making arbitrary statements like "twice the dx11 performance" while calling Charlie's equally arbitrary statements false is not quite the way to get your point across :)

The issue now is much like it was during the NV30 and the AMD 2xxx card release timeframe. The cards are late and the assurances and dates provided by the company have been off-base.

Still, even given that, I think people have been quite patient overall.

Enrico_be
02-21-10, 05:02 PM
Uhm, guys pls don't shoot me for posting this. Because I'm so hyped for the new Nvidia cards I'm searching the internet and here and there I stumble upon something interesting ^^

-> *Click me (http://www.we-wi.be/Images/rumors2.png)*

It's something that's 1.5 month old and the info should be from an Nvidia software engineer named Rahja but again, credibility is far away I'm affraid. I hope it's not posted yet here.

I would like that the facts (see *click me*) would be true =p ... Also for tomorrow I hope Nvidia gives us more then just "GTX 480 and 470 to launch in March" on their Facebook ^^

ps: Sorry for my bad english.

Ninja Prime
02-21-10, 05:06 PM
Twice the anything performance seems impossible when NVs own handpicked slides showed 60% in the best case possible they could find in anything resembling a real benchmark...

Rollo
02-21-10, 05:21 PM
Even ATI's CEO has already admitted that while he feels confident that the company will hold on to the speed crown for most of 2010,not only given the products they have now,but the ones they have coming in the pipeline,he also already went on record as saying that Nvidia might have the lead for a limited period of time during 2010.



LOL
ATi's CEO says ATi will do well? AMAZING!

Of course he said that without any knowledge of his competitors products. :confused:

Maybe he borrowed his favorite employee Charlie Demerjian's crystal ball! :headexplode:

shadow001
02-21-10, 05:39 PM
LOL
ATi's CEO says ATi will do well? AMAZING!

Of course he said that without any knowledge of his competitors products. :confused:

Maybe he borrowed his favorite employee Charlie Demerjian's crystal ball! :headexplode:


Hey all i know is ATI has been owning Nvidia over the past 5+ months with the highest performance parts on the market right now,and actually managed to launch an entire DX11 lineup of cards from 60$ redwood based GPU's to 600$ + hemlock dual GPU cards,and did that in less than 6 months,something which Nvidia has never done in it's entire history,so can you blame ATI's CEO for being pretty optimistic here....I sure wouldn't.


If the above situation was Nvidia's,you'd bet it's CEO would be shouting it from the rooftops as loud as he could,instead,it's anouncing delays after delays for Fermi,saying that high volume shipments will only happen in the second quarter,and stating that their current DX10,DX10.1 GPU's are enough for the mainstream and value markets,because they're fabulous,when ATI has DX11 GPU's for those markets too.


I know most consumers aren't that informed,but even they can see the difference between a DX10 card and a DX11 one,so which one you think they'll pick?


To wich this scenario applies quite nicely for the past 5 months....Some here have seen it and it is quite funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR45ja_fNzU


In short,Nvidia is getting screwed hard here...;)

Enrico_be
02-21-10, 05:45 PM
Totally irrelative but quite funny :D:D
-> Nvidia GF100 FERMI Pressconference with ATI FANBOYS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNIPcSF5Wms)

josiahsuarez : "is that charlie demerjian before he went bald?" xD

Rollo
02-21-10, 06:29 PM
And posts like this REALLY make me miss Chris more. Your posts crap on his memory and the good he did to the community Rollo. I really wish you would take that into consideration everytime you go into one of you "us against them" modes.

I am still waiting to see how Fermi does, personally, but making arbitrary statements like "twice the dx11 performance" while calling Charlie's equally arbitrary statements false is not quite the way to get your point across :)

The issue now is much like it was during the NV30 and the AMD 2xxx card release timeframe. The cards are late and the assurances and dates provided by the company have been off-base.

Still, even given that, I think people have been quite patient overall.


How I post has nothing to do with how any other Focus Group member posts, or posted.

It's more than a little unfair and insensitive of you mention my deceased friend. You're either really young, really stupid, or both.

BTW- using false analogy isn't a good debate tactic. For example, in the two cases you noted, the cards launched were lacking in both features and performance. The Fermi cards will be market leaders in both performance per GPU and features. There's a little difference comparing that to two cards that could barely even do AA.

I only quoted Charlie on the 2X DX11 performance, because he said it. He also said it was only in the benchmark, but he said it was a "huge win". I agreed with him in a post I prefaced with "Even if everything he said is true".

Rollo
02-21-10, 06:38 PM
Totally irrelative but quite funny :D:D
-> Nvidia GF100 FERMI Pressconference with ATI FANBOYS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNIPcSF5Wms)

josiahsuarez : "is that charlie demerjian before he went bald?" xD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpWeMhkbka0&NR=1

I like this one as well. ;)

Rollo
02-21-10, 07:13 PM
Shadow001-

I'm sort of confused. You seem to know all about final clocks and power requirements of Fermi products, and I'm under NDA with NVIDIA and don't know.

You seem pretty sure of yourself, any sources for this info you can cite who aren't in ATi's employ and mentally challenged to boot?

JasonPC
02-21-10, 07:34 PM
He's got some of Charlie's magical NDA-less sources I'm sure.

I just have to wonder how Charlie's sources are so accurate. If they can't be trusted to keep an NDA they may not be able to be trusted at all.

Charlie got his 2% yield number at first from a poorly translated Chinese website. Then much later claimed he got this number from insider sources... Well which is it? Yields were probably lousy but it remains to be proven.

It didn't take a genius to figure out that there was no way nvidia would launch Fermi in November 09. But that is really the only thing he has definitely gotten right.

We know the card is going to draw more than 225 W but other than that there has been no proof yet that it is knocking on 300 W's door.

Everyone says oh he's been right on everything up until now. But really the only thing he has gotten right so far is the delay timeframe. We're still waiting to see heat, power draw, performance, and finally initial availability.

Also his latest update seems to be an admission that he was wrong on the 448 cuda core issue. His so-called sources say the GTX 480 had 512 cuda cores.

shadow001
02-21-10, 07:58 PM
Shadow001-

I'm sort of confused. You seem to know all about final clocks and power requirements of Fermi products, and I'm under NDA with NVIDIA and don't know.

You seem pretty sure of yourself, any sources for this info you can cite who aren't in ATi's employ and mentally challenged to boot?


I'm not sure of anything,and have just been keeping tabs on how painfull the birth of Fermi is being,and yes it's being a huge pain,quoted even by the Nvidia Engineers that are designing the damn thing(read anandtech's articles on it).


The main point is that this isn't 10 years ago when GPU's were screwing around with 10~25million transistor budgets and people were still worried about which model was the better gaming card for the longer run,and had to play games that were already available on store shelves at much more modest settings than we can now,so the wait argument held more water back then so to speak.


Today,we have GPU's with 2 to 3 billion transistors,allowing to play games even on 3 monitors at pretty insane settings,and all the main feature set for 3D effects are controlled by microsoft thru Direct X,so all cards have to support those features anyhow,and do them with good preformance,so with the current environment as it is,the waiting for the better gaming card argument is well behind us,and it's more about who scores the highest benchmarks as this point,so the wating for the miracle card when it's this late and with ATI having such good cards is basically insanity.


I own a pair of HD5970's in quad crossfire,which is simply an insane amount of graphics power for what is primarily a gaming machine,and will likely take years to release games that actually stress these in any meaningfull way on their graphics ability,and even if i didn't have a preferance for ATI cards and was completely neutral on which brand i'd pick,you'd want me to wait 6+ months for Nvidia to get it's act together,and ignore than HD5970's exist altogether?....Hell no.


And that's just on that delay alone,never mind the other rumors regarding it,such as very high power use even by enthusiast standards or ****ty yeilds and still limited quantities for the next couple of months at least,and the final nail in the coffin is if really the average performance of Fermi really is only 5% faster on average than the HD5870,making it more or less look like the same situation that happened with the NV30,even though Nvidia claimed for months it would be the greatest thing ever and was also trash talking the 9700/9800 pro cards as much as possible,and we all know how that turned out didn't we.

Rollo
02-21-10, 09:27 PM
I'm not sure of anything,and have just been keeping tabs on how painfull the birth of Fermi is being,and yes it's being a huge pain,quoted even by the Nvidia Engineers that are designing the damn thing(read anandtech's articles on it).


The main point is that this isn't 10 years ago when GPU's were screwing around with 10~25million transistor budgets and people were still worried about which model was the better gaming card for the longer run,and had to play games that were already available on store shelves at much more modest settings than we can now,so the wait argument held more water back then so to speak.


Today,we have GPU's with 2 to 3 billion transistors,allowing to play games even on 3 monitors at pretty insane settings,and all the main feature set for 3D effects are controlled by microsoft thru Direct X,so all cards have to support those features anyhow,and do them with good preformance,so with the current environment as it is,the waiting for the better gaming card argument is well behind us,and it's more about who scores the highest benchmarks as this point,so the wating for the miracle card when it's this late and with ATI having such good cards is basically insanity.


I own a pair of HD5970's in quad crossfire,which is simply an insane amount of graphics power for what is primarily a gaming machine,and will likely take years to release games that actually stress these in any meaningfull way on their graphics ability,and even if i didn't have a preferance for ATI cards and was completely neutral on which brand i'd pick,you'd want me to wait 6+ months for Nvidia to get it's act together,and ignore than HD5970's exist altogether?....Hell no.


And that's just on that delay alone,never mind the other rumors regarding it,such as very high power use even by enthusiast standards or ****ty yeilds and still limited quantities for the next couple of months at least,and the final nail in the coffin is if really the average performance of Fermi really is only 5% faster on average than the HD5870,making it more or less look like the same situation that happened with the NV30,even though Nvidia claimed for months it would be the greatest thing ever and was also trash talking the 9700/9800 pro cards as much as possible,and we all know how that turned out didn't we.

Heh- I don't care what you buy. I'm not telling anyone to wait, I'm not saying you should have.

It's kind of interesting you're so concerned with the "painful birth" of the Fermi when you already have your 2 X 5970s, not like you'll be switching, is it?

You just want to post FUD about Fermis apparently, try to help out ATi like Charlie. Whatever your reasons, that's fine.

I've played with Fermis, I'll be owning them very soon, and I'm pretty confident I'll enjoy them.

With my cards I can use AA in UE3 games like Batman, I'll be able to do 3d surround when I buy 2 more 2233RZs, and I can use the cool PhysX effects in my Darkest of Days, Batman AA, Mirrors Edge, Cryostasis, Dark Void, UT3, and GRAW2.

Heck, I'd stick with my quad GTX295s or GTX280SLi over your 5970CF this year just to do the things in that sentence. ;)

shadow001
02-21-10, 09:49 PM
Heh- I don't care what you buy. I'm not telling anyone to wait, I'm not saying you should have.

It's kind of interesting you're so concerned with the "painful birth" of the Fermi when you already have your 2 X 5970s, not like you'll be switching, is it?

You just want to post FUD about Fermis apparently, try to help out ATi like Charlie. Whatever your reasons, that's fine.

I've played with Fermis, I'll be owning them very soon, and I'm pretty confident I'll enjoy them.

With my cards I can use AA in UE3 games like Batman, I'll be able to do 3d surround when I buy 2 more 2233RZs, and I can use the cool PhysX effects in my Darkest of Days, Batman AA, Mirrors Edge, Cryostasis, Dark Void, UT3, and GRAW2.

Heck, I'd stick with my quad GTX295s or GTX280SLi over your 5970CF this year just to do the things in that sentence. ;)


The main reason for the painfull birth comment is that ideally,i'd like to see comparisons between both ATI and Nvidia cards before making a final decision either way if i were a consumer that doesn't really care which brand he owns as long as it's the fastest available for that particular time period,and i'm positive that Nvidia would want it that way too.


Like it or hate it, ATI won this round because it's competitor simply wasn't there to begin with,even if we disregard just how much HD5970's kicks ass in raw performance,and it's really that simple...Nvidia missed that train and it's long gone.


In the earlier years,i used to get all worked up about 10~20% performance differences between one card and the next,but these days,given the massive amount of performance available,especially in multi GPU setups,it's all pretty academic since it's far beyond what actual games are using anyhow,so i'd only be interested in an upgrade once setups eventually get 100% faster than what this Quad HD5970 setup can do,and the crazy part is that for all i know,it might happen late this year or early next.


As for UE3 games,i can force AA thru the control panel even if the games don't allow it thru their own in game graphics options list and have a massive amount of rendering power available to do it that way,even if it isn't as efficient in terms of performance.


As for 3D glasses or in game GPU physics,you know and i know it'll only truly take off when there's unified standards for those that work across all hardware,no matter how hard Nvidia tries to push those,and developers also know this.

Rollo
02-21-10, 10:30 PM
The main reason for the painfull birth comment is that ideally,i'd like to see comparisons between both ATI and Nvidia cards before making a final decision either way if i were a consumer that doesn't really care which brand he owns as long as it's the fastest available for that particular time period,and i'm positive that Nvidia would want it that way too.


Like it or hate it, ATI won this round because it's competitor simply wasn't there to begin with,even if we disregard just how much HD5970's kicks ass in raw performance,and it's really that simple...Nvidia missed that train and it's long gone.


In the earlier years,i used to get all worked up about 10~20% performance differences between one card and the next,but these days,given the massive amount of performance available,especially in multi GPU setups,it's all pretty academic since it's far beyond what actual games are using anyhow,so i'd only be interested in an upgrade once setups eventually get 100% faster than what this Quad HD5970 setup can do,and the crazy part is that for all i know,it might happen late this year or early next.


As for UE3 games,i can force AA thru the control panel even if the games don't allow it thru their own in game graphics options list and have a massive amount of rendering power available to do it that way,even if it isn't as efficient in terms of performance.


As for 3D glasses or in game GPU physics,you know and i know it'll only truly take off when there's unified standards for those that work across all hardware,no matter how hard Nvidia tries to push those,and developers also know this.

I'll give you an "A" for trying, but what is it you think you're "winning"?

You or I aren't going to change each others opinions, and we won't change the opinons of people reading this, so is there a point to your speculation and FUD?

kaptkarl
02-21-10, 11:04 PM
First of all, shadow001 I totally agree w/ you 100%. But you must remember you are posting on an NVidia site and these fanboys have really gotten thier little green egos hurt because ATI has been kicking thier ass the last 6 months w/ the 5000 series cards.:D

Secondly, Rollo bacause you are an Nvidia fanboy I understand and except your opinion here. After all, this IS an NVidia site.:)

I say let's just agree to disagree. HOWEVER, noone in there right mind can ignore the facts. As it stands right now, ATI has the fastest, best performing, most efficient (power usage), most economical cards on the planet.........PERIOD.......END OF STORY. Hello? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out!;)

Now that may change w/ Fermi's release. But we'll just have to wait and see won't we.....

Kapt

shadow001
02-21-10, 11:27 PM
I'll give you an "A" for trying, but what is it you think you're "winning"?

You or I aren't going to change each others opinions, and we won't change the opinons of people reading this, so is there a point to your speculation and FUD?


I'm not trying for anything,the facts speak for themselves,so they sure aren't speculation or FUD.


1:Fermi is late as hell.
2:God knows when mainstream and budget DX11 cards will be released from Nvidia,judging by what Nvidia's CEO said yesterday.
3:ATI released an entire lineup of DX11 cards and they kick ass.
4:Standards that work on all graphics cards always win in the end,and the same applies for GPU physics and 3D glasses and GP-GPU features.
5:Microsoft owns and controls the Direct X standard,and OpenGL is dead and buried as a gaming API,so special features in hardware can't be supported with OpenGL driver extensions anymore.


This has nothing to do with charlie or his articles and opinions,it's just plain common sense for anyone who's been using computers for gaming for the last few years,the usual marketing BS used to distinguish one card from another by implying it can do something that others can't simply doesn't fly anymore.


It's really that simple and obvious in the end,and i'm sure other users realise this as well,so what i'm saying isn't rocket science here,but it's in your right to refuse to accept that if you wish.

shadow001
02-21-10, 11:35 PM
I like playing in 3d stereo on a LARGE monitor . . .what brand GPU allows me to do that TODAY?
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9227/dsc014161953480.jpg
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2841/infernalanmar272905be14.jpg
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5011/dsc012662571468.jpg


I can live with 3 displays using a single card though and can use the DX11 features on a couple of games already(Dirt 2,aliens versus predator,battlefield bad company 2),and you need to use an SLI setup to pull that off with 3 displays btw ;)


Each side has it's advantages basically.

shadow001
02-21-10, 11:36 PM
Shadow you sure expend alot of energy in this thread. Me thinks you need to get laid. When is the last time you had some (|)?


Sorry if stating actual facts bothers you so much...;)

Rollo
02-21-10, 11:45 PM
First of all, shadow001 I totally agree w/ you 100%. But you must remember you are posting on an NVidia site and these fanboys have really gotten thier little green egos hurt because ATI has been kicking thier ass the last 6 months w/ the 5000 series cards.:D

Secondly, Rollo bacause you are an Nvidia fanboy I understand and except your opinion here. After all, this IS an NVidia site.:)

I say let's just agree to disagree. HOWEVER, noone in there right mind can ignore the facts. As it stands right now, ATI has the fastest, best performing, most efficient (power usage), most economical cards on the planet.........PERIOD.......END OF STORY. Hello? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out!;)

Now that may change w/ Fermi's release. But we'll just have to wait and see won't we.....

Kapt
What guys like you and Shadow forget is that this is not a sporting event where we're cheering for teams.

Why would any sane persons ego be hurt? Why would any sane person think "ATi has been kicking their ass"?

Heh- if anything ATi is HELPING my ass. If NVIDIA didn't have any competition, I doubt they'd have bother with a focus group, and I wouldn't get the review samples to give my impression of. They'd just sell whatever they make, and we'd all have to buy it, because there would be nothing else.

Kaptkarl- do you feel bad when NVIDIA has the fastest card on the market? Have you ever given any thought to whether that is mature or "normal"? Seems to me you must think it's a normal state of affairs to have one's ego hurt by these events that are beyond your control and largely shouldn't matter to anyone but employees of either firm, if you're assuming we would react in this way.

Something to think about Kapt- and maybe speak to a psychiatrist about. Help is available.:hug:

shadow001
02-21-10, 11:48 PM
lol -there are no facts yet to hang your hat on. the fact you are getting so worked up is a sign that you need some poontang bud. Unless you are a shareholder of AMD stock, who gives a rats arse? I am pretty involved with Nvidia and I am not all hot and bothered over the build up and launch like you are. well, it does mean more projects for me to do and that they will upgrade my hardware with the latest and best but it is not like a cure for cancer is being held back from being released or that a magic pill that increases breast size or penix is about to hit the market. we are talking videocards.

now if she were at your door then you would have a reason to get all worked up
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9765/pennymathissexygirlacti.jpg



True,it is video cards in the end,hence why i got my pair of monsters on the first day they became available in late november and never looked back,even more so after it became obvious that Nvidia was going to be very late with Fermi.


The only time it wouldn't matter if a card is late of not is if there was only one company to choose from,so they can release what they want,when they want it and charge whatever they want for it,much like what Intel does for their higher end CPU's since AMD can't touch them there and hasn't been able to for a long while now.

Rollo
02-21-10, 11:52 PM
Heh, you and I think alike Darth Beavis. (and I was getting laid 20 minutes ago and your post made me think about it again- bodacious!)

shadow001
02-21-10, 11:53 PM
What guys like you and Shadow forget is that this is not a sporting event where we're cheering for teams.

Why would any sane persons ego be hurt? Why would any sane person think "ATi has been kicking their ass"?

Heh- if anything ATi is HELPING my ass. If NVIDIA didn't have any competition, I doubt they'd have bother with a focus group, and I wouldn't get the review samples to give my impression of. They'd just sell whatever they make, and we'd all have to buy it, because there would be nothing else.


Honestly,given the obviously high regard you have for Nvidia,i get the impression they could release anything and you'd state it's the greatest thing on planet earth,regardless if the competition is actually better and released their products earlier.


Being in a focus group primarily means viewing things objectively,and call it like it is.

Rollo
02-21-10, 11:56 PM
Honestly,given the obviously high regard you have for Nvidia,i get the impression they could release anything and you'd state it's the greatest thing on planet earth,regardless if the competition is actually better and released their products earlier.



Ah well, you're wrong about this as well. Maybe you should email Charlie for his take on the situation?

kaptkarl
02-21-10, 11:57 PM
I like playing in 3d stereo on a LARGE monitor . . .what brand GPU allows me to do that TODAY?
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9227/dsc014161953480.jpg
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2841/infernalanmar272905be14.jpg
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5011/dsc012662571468.jpg

And your point is.....what? Playing in 3d makes NVidia better today??? PLEASE......It makes them different, not better.....duh.:p

I get it you like the play in 3d. But please take the green blinder glasses off and re-read my post. I'll repeat it for you......Right now as it stands ATI has the FASTEST, BEST PERFORMING, MOST EFFICIENT (power usage), MOST ECONOMICAL cards on the planet.......period.....end of story.

Remember this is coming from a guy who currently owns a GTX260 card.....check my sig. Just stating facts people, that's all.

Kapt