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Rollo
02-24-10, 09:05 AM
Moi,i pose difficult questions to answer that's all....I go on hard realworld performance numbers,and all we've see of fermi is speculation,and technical papers for both GP-GPU back in late september and some gaming features in a late january article,but no clock speeds,or power consumption or a preview of performance....Even anandtech was getting pissed about it in his article.

The problem is you're not posting "difficult questions", you're just parroting "Butthurt Charlie's" FUD as if it were facts.

Whether Anand is angry or not isn't NVIDIA's primary reason for keeping all info NDA till the cards launch is my guess, as a corporation their only responsibility is to their shareholders.

If releasing information that could allow ATi to make production choices like "we know we have a 5% failure rate at core speed/core voltage X and a 10% failure rate at core speed/core voltage Y, but we estimate we'll have to produce Z performance based on the info NVIDIA was kind to give us" allows ATi to get some weeks/months jump on their refresh final spec, I can easily see why NVIDIA would hold their cards "close to the vest".

You need to look at things from a business perspective, not a "we want info and we're good guys" perspective. For all we know, you could work at ATi and be complaining about this in hopes of starting a grass roots "we want info!" movement, for the reasons I detailed above.

ViN86
02-24-10, 09:32 AM
I may take a day off and visit- Hynes C. Center is all of 30 minutes from my house.

Might come home with a shiney new card...maybe.

Maybe I will see you there grey. The convention center is about a 15 minute walk away from my place :)

Iruwen
02-24-10, 09:33 AM
I don't think any of these companies obtains its information from the sources "normal people" have access to, they'll already know the exact specifications. As if they'd care about NDAs. Whatever NVs reasons for not publishing any information are, it's consumer related imho.

Revs
02-24-10, 09:39 AM
Many people have had the specs of these card for a while, some have seen benchmarks, but they respect the NDA.

Johnny C
02-24-10, 10:09 AM
Am I an NV shill? Justs curious.

Since you may or may not have gotten a free Quadro.....the answer is yes....

:D

Ninja Prime
02-24-10, 10:10 AM
Am I an NV shill? Justs curious.

No beavis, you're not. Take some advice rollo, beavis supports NV, does some of the same kind of things you do for them, but you know what? Hes respectable, and not an arrogant ass about it. +1 beavis.

Johnny C
02-24-10, 10:14 AM
free Quadro, three free 295s, three free 280s, at least four free 9800 GX2s . . . ;) of course I have to produce projects for all that stuff so it is sort of an exchange I guess. I put in tons of time and money into the projects. Intel gave me a Skulltrail and two QX9775s which is about 4 grand all together, AMD gave me a Spider Platform (CPU, mobo, two 3870 X2s)back when I did a project for them.

(nana2)

AdamK47
02-24-10, 10:21 AM
I'll be an NV shill for free cards. I have a rather lengthy list of games to test them out with (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=127262). It would be going to a good cause.

grey_1
02-24-10, 10:26 AM
Maybe I will see you there grey. The convention center is about a 15 minute walk away from my place :)

If I can talk my super into letting me split for the day...that would be very cool. I'm sure I'd have the chance to meet a couple of posters here at the event. :)

Pity this thread turned the way it did. I love the competition as it only benefits we consumers, and I love the discussions about the technical merits of each vendor's products - too bad it can't be left at that.

Meh....I'll not add any more fuel to the fire....

Peace all

DiscipleDOC
02-24-10, 10:58 AM
Tell that to Kyle at [H]. He hates me big time.

It's that mustache thing you got going. He's jealous of your mustache. :bleh:

ViN86
02-24-10, 11:17 AM
bob wants a mustache ride.

Noriega
02-24-10, 12:15 PM
So I'm gonna do some OT discussion. What NV is going to show on Pax? Some other games than Rocket Sleed? Anyway it will be near end of NDA? So I won't bother about PAX. All I want to see are game benchmarks.

Vardant
02-24-10, 01:02 PM
DX11 version of Metro 2033 with PhysX and 3D Surround Vision, but the game will be out by then.

shadow001
02-24-10, 01:15 PM
The problem is you're not posting "difficult questions", you're just parroting "Butthurt Charlie's" FUD as if it were facts.

Whether Anand is angry or not isn't NVIDIA's primary reason for keeping all info NDA till the cards launch is my guess, as a corporation their only responsibility is to their shareholders.

If releasing information that could allow ATi to make production choices like "we know we have a 5% failure rate at core speed/core voltage X and a 10% failure rate at core speed/core voltage Y, but we estimate we'll have to produce Z performance based on the info NVIDIA was kind to give us" allows ATi to get some weeks/months jump on their refresh final spec, I can easily see why NVIDIA would hold their cards "close to the vest".

You need to look at things from a business perspective, not a "we want info and we're good guys" perspective. For all we know, you could work at ATi and be complaining about this in hopes of starting a grass roots "we want info!" movement, for the reasons I detailed above.


Really now?....The delays are accurate as charlie has been stating for months now,but hey it's Fud according to you.


Here's another good question,why show the cards at PAX,which is basically a glorified lan party basically,when CEBIT is in march 2nd to the 6th in hannover germany,and i think it's a lot more well known and gets way more media coverage than PAX ever will,and i quote

CeBIT has been called the world’s largest technology trade show,and gets 560 000 visitors on average.

http://www.cebit.de/homepage_e


And as for holding back clock speeds,i told you already,ATI itself alread went on the defensive and mentioned that Fermi might take the speed crown for a while,and ATI is a business in the end,so the refresh parts,whatever they are,are going to be clocked as high as they can,while still having good yeilds.


Trying to clock them as high as possible even after Fermi is released in some sort of dick mesuring contest,so that reviews show it winning,but when it comes to mass production,the yeilds are so bad that hardly any volume can be made,is no victory for ATI in money making terms,it's just a PR victory at most,and it's completely pointless.


Oh and here's what they're going with the 300 series designation,and this has got to be a new record in rebranding:

http://vr-zone.com/forums/564815/it-s-at-it-again-nvidia-rebrands-yet-more-gpus.html


If i were an Nvidia investor,would that make me happy when ATI has DX11 cards on the market and performing better than those already,for the same money....No i wouldn't.

Rollo
02-24-10, 01:25 PM
No beavis, you're not. Take some advice rollo, beavis supports NV, does some of the same kind of things you do for them, but you know what? Hes respectable, and not an arrogant ass about it. +1 beavis.

NP:

If I were to tell you "Please stop posting negative to NVIDIA slanted comments because Darth Beavis doesn't post negative things about NVIDIA", would you do it?

If I were to ask you to change you posting style for any reason, would you do it?

So why do you expect me to?

I am not Darth Beavis, I am not ChrisRay. Hard as it may be for you to believe, I'm an individual with my own take on things. I'm not an employee of NVIDIA, there is no "company line" to follow. Note in my signature the verbage NVIDIA's legal team prepared for focus group member which states the opinions I express are strictly my own.

While I imagine ATi, and every ATi fan under the sun would prefer that I focused on modding cases like Darth Beavis, or running benchmarks and doing tech support like Chris used to, that's not how I choose to enjoy my hobbie.

I play video games with NVIDIA hardware, I post about the experience. When I see FUD or innacurate information posted about NVIDIA hardware I'm quick to point it out. I moderate on nZone, or don't, as time and mood allow. I post press releases for NVIDIA. I forward valid concerns about NVIDIA hardware to them. I give advice on purchasing, and if I know the answer to a question I post it.

The key is all of the above are things I enjoy doing and want to do, and that's what I plan to keep on doing. :)

Rollo
02-24-10, 01:41 PM
Really now?....The delays are accurate as charlie has been stating for months now,but hey it's Fud according to you.


Here's another good question,why show the cards at PAX,which is basically a glorified lan party basically,when CEBIT is in march 2nd to the 6th in hannover germany,and i think it's a lot more well known and gets way more media coverage than PAX ever will,and i quote



http://www.cebit.de/homepage_e


And as for holding back clock speeds,i told you already,ATI itself alread went on the defensive and mentioned that Fermi might take the speed crown for a while,and ATI is a business in the end,so the refresh parts,whatever they are,are going to be clocked as high as they can,while still having good yeilds.


Trying to clock them as high as possible even after Fermi is released in some sort of dick mesuring contest,so that reviews show it winning,but when it comes to mass production,the yeilds are so bad that hardly any volume can be made,is no victory for ATI in money making terms,it's just a PR victory at most,and it's completely pointless.


Oh and here's what they're going with the 300 series designation,and this has got to be a new record in rebranding:

http://vr-zone.com/forums/564815/it-s-at-it-again-nvidia-rebrands-yet-more-gpus.html


If i were an Nvidia investor,would that make me happy when ATI has DX11 cards on the market and performing better than those already,for the same money....No i wouldn't.

1. Why not show the cards at PAX? It's a week earlier? I'm sure NVIDIA will be at CeBit as well.

2. You apparently didn't understand me, and you apparently don't understand business. Are you an adult?
There are choices to be made when manufacturing these products. If NVIDIA released game benchmarks (or to a lesser extent clocks) 3 weeks before launch, ATi can make choices about their refresh parts.
A more expensive heatsink fan might be needed to run the cards at competitive (or better) levels, or a better PCB. I'm not an electrical engineer but better quality capacitors, etc might be required. Even if the board layout and HSF is "set in stone" a choice might be made to use more voltage to run at higher clocks, or not, and give OEMs the freedom to market OCd variants,or not. They might opt for higher speed and factor higher returns in exchange for a "halo" part, or not.

This is how business works. You don't tip you hand and give useful information to competitors because "some guys on the forum want it" or "the press wants it".

Likewise, withholding the information doesn't imply the parts are bad, or good. Much like the HD2900XT and HD4870, or the FX5800 and 8800GTX were surprises of the good and bad flavor, lack of information does not imply anything. (contrary to what chromosome deficient stillborns like Charlie Demerjian post as they soil their cheap boxers, or ATi fans post as they think "Ooh boy! I'm helping ATi now! Down with NVIDIA!")

Capiche?

shadow001
02-24-10, 02:05 PM
1. Why not show the cards at PAX? It's a week earlier? I'm sure NVIDIA will be at CeBit as well.


Actually,Cebit is 3 weeks before Pax,and the main point is that it's a far larger technology show,having far more visitors and press coverage than PAX ever could....Nvidia would get more benefit from a Fermi presentation there than they ever could at PAX,period.


2. You apparently didn't understand me, and you apparently don't understand business. Are you an adult?
There are choices to be made when manufacturing these products. If NVIDIA released game benchmarks (or to a lesser extent clocks) 3 weeks before launch, ATi can make choices about their refresh parts.
A more expensive heatsink fan might be needed to run the cards at competitive (or better) levels, or a better PCB. I'm not an electrical engineer but better quality capacitors, etc might be required. Even if the board layout and HSF is "set in stone" a choice might be made to use more voltage to run at higher clocks, or not, and give OEMs the freedom to market OCd variants,or not. They might opt for higher speed and factor higher returns in exchange for a "halo" part, or not.

This is how business works. You don't tip you hand and give useful information to competitors because "some guys on the forum want it" or "the press wants it".

Likewise, withholding the information doesn't imply the parts are bad, or good. Much like the HD2900XT and HD4870, or the FX5800 and 8800GTX were surprises of the good and bad flavor, lack of information does not imply anything. (contrary to what chromosome deficient stillborns like Charlie Demerjian post as they soil their cheap boxers, or ATi fans post as they think "Ooh boy! I'm helping ATi now! Down with NVIDIA!")

Capiche?


You're not getting it,ATI already went on the safe side and said that Nvidia might hold on to the speed crown for a bit with fermi,so the surprise effect from with holding final clocks on fermi buys Nvidia a few weeks extra at most,hardly any advantage that matters in the longer term,as the major damage to fermi already happened with the delays it's suffered so far.


It's ancient history basically,as we all know that computer products in general,already have a short lifespan as it is as the best thing on the market,made a lot shorter when they're 6 months late....It blew it's window of oportunity as the fastest thing out there and hold on to that title at least for 6~7 months.


You mentioned the FX5800 and the HD2900XT right,what happened with both products after they were released?....They both were replaced very quickly with the FX5900,having a 256 bit memory bus rather than the 128 bit the FX5800 shipped with,and on ATI's side,they moved to 55nm pretty fast to make the original R600 GPU cheaper to make and use less power and be easier to cool,now relabled the RV670 chip.


In both failures,that happened within 2~3 months after the original release,which were both very late as well,just like Fermi is.....In short,there's very little reason to keep the clocks on this first generation Fermi a closely guarded secret anymore....If you miss your launch window by that much,you're screwed basically.

shadow001
02-24-10, 02:21 PM
Nvidia wants to REELASE the card at a Geforce LAN. They already did the first public Fermi presentation at PDXLAN (see my videos). They clearly want to appeal to real-world users hence a LAN party event.


When was PDXLAN?.....I was under the impression that the first public presentation of working Fermi cards happened at CES(another large trade show btw) in early january?

shadow001
02-24-10, 02:32 PM
I was not at CES (in person, I had builds there) to see if Nvidia actually ran the Fermi cards. PDXLAN was in January. It was the first LAN appearance and stated as the first GAMERS to see the Fermi.


KK,i'm going by the demo video's shown of working Fermi cards running that rocket sled graphics/physics demo during the CES show,as they were all over the major hardware sites...Even a triple water cooled SLI setup was shown if i'm not mistaken.

Iruwen
02-24-10, 02:36 PM
Actually,Cebit is 3 weeks before Pax,and the main point is that it's a far larger technology show,having far more visitors and press coverage than PAX ever could....Nvidia would get more benefit from a Fermi presentation there than they ever could at PAX,period.

CeBIT Home doesn't exist any more and the CeBIT is actually not meant to be a consumer tradeshow. Although there are always some multimedia shows and events for consumers, it is mainly focused on professionals and contractors. Some even say the expo is dead. Many big companies have not been there last year (the number of exhibitors decreased by more than 25%, four pavilions less were in use as compared to 2008), some are coming back this year (like AMD). I have been there last year and it would definitely not have been a great place for a Fermi (or any other highly anticipated) presentation.

wysiwyg
02-24-10, 02:43 PM
i think i SHOULD have a working Fermi card

shadow001
02-24-10, 03:27 PM
i think i SHOULD have a working Fermi card


We'll see in a month i guess..Cross your fingers andd hope for the best.

shadow001
02-24-10, 03:37 PM
CeBIT Home doesn't exist any more and the CeBIT is actually not meant to be a consumer tradeshow. Although there are always some multimedia shows and events for consumers, it is mainly focused on professionals and contractors. Some even say the expo is dead. Many big companies have not been there last year (the number of exhibitors decreased by more than 25%, four pavilions less were in use as compared to 2008), some are coming back this year (like AMD). I have been there last year and it would definitely not have been a great place for a Fermi (or any other highly anticipated) presentation.


I can't say how it's been in the past couple of years,but it was one of the largest shows,along with CES of course,for showing new products,which both ATI and Nvidia released new/refresh products over the last decade in either show many times in the past.


Granted a LAN show like PDX is likely more focused towards gamers,but it having the media coverage and attendance in terms of people actually visiting it can't be even close to shows like CES at least,even if Cebit is going downhill these last 2 years.


Anyone who was interested in Fermi or high end cards in general,saw the videos of it online,which originated from the CES show,and i'm sure Nvidia would have loved to launch the product then and there.

wysiwyg
02-24-10, 03:49 PM
i meant i should have a free one now cos im a nvidia fanboy! :P

Rollo
02-24-10, 06:19 PM
Once we are issued our Nvidia mankinis so we can make the pictures of us wearing them our avatars, peace will again prevail. Fear not young Rollo. I am not sure why people are getting so tweaked but I have found when people get pissed at me (which the often do) I need to go back and read my posts in a different mindset. Often I find I did not 'mean' to come across as I did. Internet posting is a handicapped form of communication as non-verbal communication is totally left out (which is why I use WAY out there humor and pictures to compensate for this shortcoming). Well, I am also compensating for a lack of other things but we will not discuss those issues here.

Darth, if I wear a mankini ATi will think NVIDIA bought a circus bear to attack them. I'm 6'4", hairy, and around 3 bills.