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reever2
07-17-03, 08:22 PM
Taken from the Halflife2 boards: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=5

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2622&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

1) Is this a problem that can be fixed with new drivers, or would we have to buy a whole new card to recitify it? If so, are there any cards on the horizon that would offer it?

Drivers aren't likely to fix the problem, with the exception of the ATI 9500-9800. There's hope there for being able to use FSAA properly. You are out of luck on NVidia unless either NVidia or us come up with some clever way of solving this problem.

2) Is this a problem unique to hardware + Source?

It's a problem for any app that packs small textures into larger textures. The small textures will bleed into each other if you have multisample FSAA enabled. The best thing to do right now is either buy an ATI card in the hopes that it will be solved there, or wait until the next generation of cards come out.

That certainly explains this tidbit from the most recent gamespy halflife2 interview

http://www.gamespy.com/interviews/j...e2/index3.shtml

GameSpy: Is Half-Life 2 going to be the type of game that is really going to be pushing system requirements? Should the major computer manufacturers expect a bump in sales when the game ships, just because people will be upgrading their machines?

Doug Lombardi: I will sound arrogant as hell if I say yes! But I think that Valve tries very hard to support as far back with system as we humanly can, and in this case we're going back to a Pentium II 800 with 128 of RAM, but as get up to a Pentium 4 class you'll see better water and better effects. For folks who want the ultimate experience, they'll want the latest ATI card, and the fastest processor available from AMD or Intel.

You can email just about any member of the HL2 team about this, even the big boss man gabe newell if you need more information

edit by StealthHawk: fixed the links for you :D

saturnotaku
07-17-03, 08:38 PM
None of those links you provided work.

Originally posted by reever2
Drivers aren't likely to fix the problem, with the exception of the ATI 9500-9800. There's hope there for being able to use FSAA properly. You are out of luck on NVidia unless either NVidia or us come up with some clever way of solving this problem.

Well I certainly believe the onus lies on Valve to come up with a solution to this problem, considering that most people who would be buying this game probably have an NVIDIA card. I have a very hard time believing this statement. This game has been in development for how many years? I don't think Valve would be this myopic.

Kev1
07-17-03, 08:59 PM
Its kindof depressing :(

reever2
07-17-03, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by saturnotaku
None of those links you provided work.



Well I certainly believe the onus lies on Valve to come up with a solution to this problem, considering that most people who would be buying this game probably have an NVIDIA card. I have a very hard time believing this statement. This game has been in development for how many years? I don't think Valve would be this myopic.

Well you can email them yourselves if you want to talk to them about it more indepth

Sazar
07-17-03, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by saturnotaku
None of those links you provided work.



Well I certainly believe the onus lies on Valve to come up with a solution to this problem, considering that most people who would be buying this game probably have an NVIDIA card. I have a very hard time believing this statement. This game has been in development for how many years? I don't think Valve would be this myopic.

could it be hardware related ? something like the fog issue ?

therefore making a software work around a little harder ?

I dunno much about the supposed problem... perhaps in the next few days more details on b3d bout this matter will come up :)

Paul
07-17-03, 09:54 PM
Click here (http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2622) for the thread that reever tried to link to originally, but er... didn't. Stupid code.

digitalwanderer
07-17-03, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Paul
Click here (http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2622) for the thread that reever tried to link to originally, but er... didn't. Stupid code.
Thanks, off to read.

This would really suck if true, and I ain't saying that in any kind of gloating way...just in an "it would truly suck" way. :(

The Baron
07-17-03, 10:56 PM
Makes me wonder.

If Tomb Raider: AOD has an in-game AA selector because certain parts of it won't work correctly if AA is forced across the entire scene, couldn't a similar method be applied to HL2?

extreme_dB
07-17-03, 11:28 PM
I wonder if HL2 performance at maximum details will even allow AA to be usable with this generation of cards.

scott123
07-17-03, 11:36 PM
I haven't been able to read anything that specifically says why AA may not be able to be used.

I find it hard to understand how a game can be in development for this long, and then a few months before its release they say....oh, by the way....AA may not work.

I just pre-ordered this thing tonight, but I may excersice my option to bail before the release if this issue isn't resolved.

Scott

lukar
07-17-03, 11:59 PM
Anyway If you want to enjoy HL2, get Radeon 9700Pro or 9800Pro. Nvidia will have a hard time in this game, simply because GFX sucks in shaders. And I bet the game in full details is unplayable with NV35, unless Nvidia replace shader Hm :eek: I don't think so...

reever2
07-18-03, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by lukar
Anyway If you want to enjoy HL2, get Radeon 9700Pro or 9800Pro. Nvidia will have a hard time in this game, simply because GFX sucks in shaders. And I bet the game in full details is unplayable with NV35, unless Nvidia replace shader Hm :eek: I don't think so...

Nothing will make HL2 be unplayable, if the fps is low the engine dynamically lowers LOD and details until it is playable

john19055
07-18-03, 12:29 AM
Something due to the core of the FX5900,probley more people will have a R9700pro 0r R9800Pro since you can get one of them a lot cheaper,Glad I did'nt take back my R9800Pro to get a FX5900Ulta,almost did,But Half Life2 is one of the games I been waiting for, so looks like I mad the right choice,but they still have almost two months before it's comes out surely they will have some kind of fix .

scott123
07-18-03, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by lukar
Anyway If you want to enjoy HL2, get Radeon 9700Pro or 9800Pro. Nvidia will have a hard time in this game, simply because GFX sucks in shaders. And I bet the game in full details is unplayable with NV35, unless Nvidia replace shader Hm :eek: I don't think so...

Wow, there is a whole lot of speculation going on in your post.

Nv40
07-18-03, 01:07 AM
i dont use AA, because i play mostly at high resolutions with max AF ,so this is a non issue for me ,but many FAns will be extremely pissed with VAlve about this.. :) no doubt HL2 its going to sell hardware ,but if we take in to account that NVidia have increased even more its market share ,mostly in the mainstream market with Geforce4's/other Geforce's..and with the low end FX's that are selling well ,then i will take with a HUGE grain of salt this information,unless is -officially- stated by VAlve .

update..
here is a thread about the AA issue..
http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2622

There are problems with the way that current hardware implements FSAA. If you enable it, you will see a lot of artifacts on polygon boundaries due to the way that they sample texture subrects with FSAA enabled. We are working with the harware companies and the DirectX team to make sure that future hardware doesn't have this problem. Gary

looks like splintercell part2 :)
didnt Hl2 videos where demostrated in a radeon9800pro?

EMunEeE
07-18-03, 01:25 AM
Wow!!! AA not working...I guess I'll have to get used to playin at 1280x1024 without AA:D....EDIT: OH wait I have a Radeon 9700 Pro....:afro: :afro: :afro2: :angel: :D

jAkUp
07-18-03, 01:41 AM
the hl2 developer said it should be resolved by shipping ones

at least thats what i heard

GlowStick
07-18-03, 01:44 AM
I wrote an e-mail to Valve asking why they decided to keep AA off for the videos and here is what they had to say:

Now, the Videos were taken on a system running an ATi Radeon 9800Pro, so how you do assume the problem is strictly on nvidia cards? It sounds like its all video cards.

Secondly, Valve also stated (though we have no proof) that their engine is so advanced no hardware now can fully take advantage of it, that would mean that AA cant be applied yet. Maybe in 2 gens of video cards the game will play so fast that we can add in AA and still have 100+ fps.

but on a off topic note, i feel that the source engine is not really that advanced, if you look at still's you can see the shadows are EXACTLY like half-life, and the weapon models are sooooo low poly count compared to even, Elite Force II.

EMunEeE
07-18-03, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by GlowStick
Now, the Videos were taken on a system running an ATi Radeon 9800Pro, so how you do assume the problem is strictly on nvidia cards? It sounds like its all video cards.

Secondly, Valve also stated (though we have no proof) that their engine is so advanced no hardware now can fully take advantage of it, that would mean that AA cant be applied yet. Maybe in 2 gens of video cards the game will play so fast that we can add in AA and still have 100+ fps.

but on a off topic note, i feel that the source engine is not really that advanced, if you look at still's you can see the shadows are EXACTLY like half-life, and the weapon models are sooooo low poly count compared to even, Elite Force II.

1) Is this a problem that can be fixed with new drivers, or would we have to buy a whole new card to recitify it? If so, are there any cards on the horizon that would offer it?

Drivers aren't likely to fix the problem, with the exception of the ATI 9500-9800. There's hope there for being able to use FSAA properly. You are out of luck on NVidia unless either NVidia or us come up with some clever way of solving this problem.

AA was not running on the ATi card now because it was not working, BUT there is a possibility of AA working (I hope it does) on ATi cards only...nV maybe out of luck not unless they sue or something.

Nv40
07-18-03, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by GlowStick
but on a off topic note, i feel that the source engine is not really that advanced, if you look at still's you can see the shadows are EXACTLY like half-life, and the weapon models are sooooo low poly count compared to even, Elite Force II. [/B]

yes.. i was thinking something like that..
we have seen pure directx9 demos with intensive use of PS2.0/Vs2.0 and more ,with everything that is possible in current directx9 hardware from Nvidia and ATI a -none- have issues with AA. and remember this game have been in development for 5 years so this have no sense..
why this is an "issue" with AA in NVidia or ATi hardware :confused:

or why a "Valve guy" have more "hopes" with ATI drivers team ,than with Nvidia team. :angel2: mmm... take anything that people say others have told them in forums with grain of salt. unless if officially stated by VAlve to the press.

Steppy
07-18-03, 02:35 AM
I'd assume because of the fact that it seems to be a problem with MSFSAA, leads me to believe that it is not a problem for super sampling methods. The R300 hardware I believe supports full super sampling methods(only the hardware is capable right now , but the drivers don't support it), whereas the GF3 - 5900 only support full multi-sampling modes or mixed multi and super sampling modes. This could be an ace in the R300's hand if they can and do enable ssaa in the R300's drivers.

Nv40
07-18-03, 03:02 AM
is that is the case.. that SSAA is the only solution ,then this is clearly an engine issue ,a game developer issue,not a hardware issue. because game development (at least until today) is made around -all- the hardware and features that exist. around what each hardware can do. -not about a hardware that doesnt exist - or features that no hardware currently support in their drivers . if hard to believe the story that just 75 days earlier (a game that have been in development for 5 years) of the release of the game AA doesnt work ,and that IHV's need to "fix" something that is not a feature originally planned in their cards.

Clockwork
07-18-03, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by saturnotaku
......most people who would be buying this game probably have an NVIDIA card. .


If you actually believe this...

(well at least ones that are gonna run full eye candy and at decent speeds with AA)

-=DVS=-
07-18-03, 03:56 AM
:fanboy:



:rofl

Quitch
07-18-03, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by Nv40
is that is the case.. that SSAA is the only solution ,then this is clearly an engine issue ,a game developer issue,not a hardware issue. because game development (at least until today) is made around -all- the hardware and features that exist. around what each hardware can do. -not about a hardware that doesnt exist - or features that no hardware currently support in their drivers . if hard to believe the story that just 75 days earlier (a game that have been in development for 5 years) of the release of the game AA doesnt work ,and that IHV's need to "fix" something that is not a feature originally planned in their cards.

Uh, that's a load of nonsense. Games are the driving force behind hardware, not visa versa. Higher poly counts, shaders... these are things games increase and new hardware needs to come out to run it.

And this IS something that is supported by hardware... but not nVidia hardware. Considering nVidia would probably have released a new driver which disabled AA no matter what you did anyway, I doubt this matters.

The FX range makes a hash of even meeting the DX9 specs, so we should hardly be surprised that it can't support new techniques.

HL2 has been in development how long? Yet you think the hardware companies knew nothing of this?