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ronin_razors
07-19-03, 01:44 PM
There's something wrong with the story about Valve not supporting nvidia, or seeming to bless ati and not nvidia for FSAA.

Remember when you last upgraded HL with their patch? You were invited to take part in a survey. Take a look at the results;
http://valve.speakeasy.net/

63% of their users are nvidia based.

Now add in the fact that the latest Mercury market research (http://www.mercuryresearch.com/statistics) just published show that nvidia still dominates with over 65% of the desktop add in card market, compared to ati with something like 25%. Unfortunately you cant see the market share stats in their webpage (they make you pay) but anyone in the pc industry knows them and knows these numbers are correct.

YOU might buy an ati card over this story if its true but the fact remains that the majority of valves customers and consumers wont - they'll be using nvidia and so doing anything that makes them seem anti nvidia would be a bad move for them. Especially since doom3 looks like its been made for geforcefx based on the results so far.

The other interesting fact is that the story talks about dx9, does that mean that HL2 doesnt support opengl any more - does anyone know? If it does then can it be run in FSAA in opengl?

I'd like to know that.

lukar
07-19-03, 01:50 PM
GFX do not support pixel shader 1.4, GFX don't fully support DX 9.0 (there is a list of features). Ati has programmable FSAA, GFX is doing old way. Well, It's not Valve's fault. Nvidia simply sucks with GFX line.

Let me tell you about market share. Those numbers you presented are wrong if you're talking only about video cards. Those numbers include mobos and other Nvidia products.
On the other hand how many users own **** like GF2 or TNT. a lot of them. Well, for sure Valve Software ain't gonna spend time fixing Nvidia's mistake in their hardware.

I applaud them. We saw enough B.S. from Santa Clara in last a couple of years.

Hanners
07-19-03, 01:51 PM
Most of those 65% are GeForce2/4MXs - I doubt a lot of those people even know what AA is, let alone be able to use it on such low spec cards.

ronin_razors
07-19-03, 01:56 PM
Thats perfectly true - but that doesnt alter the fact that many of them still have them or that nvidia doesnt still control the gpu market outside of a small bunch of ati fans.

It does not make commercial sense for valve to alienate their customers.

The other question remains unanswered - what about opengl?

lukar
07-19-03, 01:58 PM
Well, Valve Software can't wait for those people to upgrade their GF2. It's holding PC industry. Simply, people if you want to play HL2 get the better video cards.

muzz
07-19-03, 02:13 PM
NV has NOT overcome the issues they have. period.
The better Vcard right now is the 9800p imo.

Hanners
07-19-03, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by ronin_razors
Thats perfectly true - but that doesnt alter the fact that many of them still have them or that nvidia doesnt still control the gpu market outside of a small bunch of ati fans.

It does not make commercial sense for valve to alienate their customers.

If the cards don't support the features they need, then what choice do they have? They can either make the engine poorer and dampen down the experience for everyone, or accept that one feature won't work and just get on with it.

As for OpenGL, I don't think we'll be seeing anything revolutionary on that front until OpenGL 2.0 is released and supported in it's final form. Even then, it may not have helped matters, who knows?

phye2002
07-19-03, 02:26 PM
here's my take on this issue

1: Nvidia has been recruiting game developers for their "way it's meant to be played" platform.... what do you think this is? It's a way to alienate non Nvidia graphics cards, so some poor shmuck buying a game without info will believe the game won't work without an Nvidia card.

2: "the way it's meant to be played" in some instances to be released (not sure which games) is going to offer added features to games when played on Nvidia video cards.

3: the vast majority of Nvidia based cards currently in the marketplace are in fact GF3 and below. there was an article in maximum pc about futuremark when it released 3dmard03. when you submit to orb with your results you are giving you're information to them to use against others to create statistics on everything computer based. their findings stated that something like 70% of nvidia cards currently trying 3dmark01, and 03 were in fact gf3 and below.

How do you figure the gaming community to get new games with all the cool features when they still have to be backwards compatible with 3-4 year old hardware? you can't really... Most people that run games have at least a 1GB MHZ processor, why are developers still required to cater to older hardware, when the community is upgrading everything but not their video cards? this may be a way to force the gaming community to look to the future, and less in the glories of old and dated technology.

Hellbinder
07-19-03, 02:48 PM
The MAJORITY of Nvidia and ATi cards cant do FSAA worth a ****. Its only been this latest generation that really offeres reasonable FSAA solutions.

There's something wrong with the story about Valve not supporting nvidia, or seeming to bless ati and not nvidia for FSAA.

Did you actually read the CONTENT of the articles on this subject?? The game is going to play with different levels of Quality and features depending on the system. It still going to be a nice looking game regardless.

Want to point the finger at someone to hold accountable for not having programable FSAA?? its hardly valves fault.

Funny thing is.. i keep reading all these reviews of the 5900 claming that its *better equipped* for *Future games* than the 9800pro.

Which is pretty far from the truth.

ronin_razors
07-19-03, 02:52 PM
The fact is that nvidia hasnt managed to keep its dominant hold on the industry by still selling geforcemx and geforce3. Its still number one currently due to strong sales of geforcefx.

They have kept all their partners in asia including Asus, MSI, Leadtek, Abit, AOpen, Palit, Prolink, etc, etc and not lost one of them. On the other hand rumour abounds that Gigabyte are going back to nvidia. All those companies presumably are still in production and a glance at any of their sites shows a lot of geforcefx;

http://www.asus.com/products/vga/vgaindex.htm
http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/vga/vga/pro_vga_list.php
http://www.abit.com.tw/abitweb/webjsp/english/products.jsp?pSEARCH_PRODUCT_TYPE=Video%20Card
etc, etc

I'm not going to post every link to every page but you get the point.

Add to this the fact that geforcefx looks strong on doom3 and it seems like valve need to make sure they fix THEIR problem or lose sales.

ronin_razors
07-19-03, 02:53 PM
Hellbinder - you're hardly an unbiased observer now are you?

saturnotaku
07-19-03, 02:59 PM
FYI - HL2 was not written using OpenGL. And don't forget the original HL was just the Quake engine on seroids.

Hanners
07-19-03, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by ronin_razors
The fact is that nvidia hasnt managed to keep its dominant hold on the industry by still selling geforcemx and geforce3. Its still number one currently due to strong sales of geforcefx.

I don't think that's true at all, with the possible exception of the 5200, which won't be able to run Half-Life 2 at full detail anyway, let alone with AA.

To be honest, I imagine that if AA does get fixed on ATi cards (and lets remember, that is still a big if), then this problem is only going to affect about 1 or 2% of users if you take into account only people with cards capable of running AA at any decent speed.

Besides, what do you want Valve to do? Completely rewrite the Source engine from scratch?

Hellbinder
07-19-03, 02:59 PM
hmmm...

When Nvidia gets developers to play favorites for years know with its practices and recent *Way its meant to be played* tactics its *great business practices*..

Now suddenly when *ONE* major game says it will work and play better on an Ati card.. then the Developer is *not playing fair*.. Not being legit.

The fact is that nvidia hasnt managed to keep its dominant hold on the industry by still selling geforcemx and geforce3. Its still number one currently due to strong sales of geforcefx.

That is completely totally False. They barely started selling FX cards.. Did you even read the data already posed in this thread?? 70% of Nvidia cards out there are Gf3 and lower.. THAT is what currently has them dominating the add in market.

Times are changing.

Hellbinder
07-19-03, 03:02 PM
This is what really irritates me...

Hellbinder - you're hardly an unbiased observer now are you?

READ THE INFORMATION.

What on earth does Bias have to do with anything here? The truth is what the truth is.. If one day it favors something Nvidia is doing Great.. if the Next day something favors ATi, or PowerVR or anybody So be it..

Bias comes from the people who refuse to see the obvious for closed minded reasons.

saturnotaku
07-19-03, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by ronin_razors
The fact is that nvidia hasnt managed to keep its dominant hold on the industry by still selling geforcemx and geforce3. Its still number one currently due to strong sales of geforcefx.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Open mouth, insert foot, suck on it until you're blue in the face.

NVIDIA sold an awful lot of GeForce2 and 3 cards which is what a lot of people are still running in their machines right now. The FX has been in the mainstream what? 2 months tops? And I sure as hell ain't seeing major OEM's using those cards. Go to your local Best Buy, CompUSA, etc and look at what video cards are in those machines - lo and behold most are of the GeForce4 MX persuasion. :eek:

gokickrocks
07-19-03, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by ronin_razors

Add to this the fact that geforcefx looks strong on doom3 and it seems like valve need to make sure they fix THEIR problem or lose sales.

valve lose sales on HL2? thats a laugh...

as long as people meet the minimum requirements, i bet they would still buy it...in fact, i bet more people will buy HL2 than D3 since it will cater to the multiplayer community and well, its the baseline for the next CS

ronin_razors
07-19-03, 03:08 PM
I'll ignore Hellbinder.

Here's a story in nvidia's latest market share;
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030428.watii428/BNStory/Technology/

nvidia hasnt lost a single partner in asia and these are the guys with the manufacturing muscle; asus, msi, leadtek, gainward, abit, aopen, prolink, etc A glance at their websites shows they are all now shipping geforcefx.

on the other hand rumours abound that gigabyte is going back to nvidia - why would they do that unless it was good business?

You may have "the way its meant to be played" but its getting traction and consumers are starting to understand that for an increasing number of games they need nvidia graphics to see them at their best.

muzz
07-19-03, 03:09 PM
Times changed over 8 months ago....... the thing that changed them was the 9700P..........
NV was NOT ready for that monster.
The folks got to see the way things were REALLY meant to be played........
Forget about it...........

NV has just fkd around/dicked around since.

End of story really, and there aren't ALOT of things to back the NV's faulty fans stance since..........

NV has put out NOTHING that is revolutionary, regardless of what the NV fans pout ( I prefer to call the blind clowns,........ but what do I know..........).
OLD and slow without cheats..... sad really

Edited bit: Grammar/ cohesion.

Hanners
07-19-03, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by ronin_razors
You may have "the way its meant to be played" but its getting traction and consumers are starting to understand that for an increasing number of games they need nvidia graphics to see them at their best.

:rofl

If that didn't sound so much like a PR statement, I'd think you actually believed it for yourself.

gokickrocks
07-19-03, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by ronin_razors

nvidia hasnt lost a single partner in asia and these are the guys with the manufacturing muscle; asus, msi, leadtek, gainward, abit, aopen, prolink, etc A glance at their websites shows they are all now shipping geforcefx.


youre right about them not losing a single partner in asia...

because they in fact lost 2...

gigabyte and elsa

saturnotaku
07-19-03, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by ronin_razors
You may have "the way its meant to be played" but its getting traction and consumers are starting to understand that for an increasing number of games they need nvidia graphics to see them at their best.

Oh boy. Listen, I've got some land in Florida I'd like to sell you.

saturnotaku
07-19-03, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by gokickrocks gigabyte and elsa [/B]

Elsa's based in Germany actually. And speaking of European graphics card makers, NV also lost Hercules.

ronin_razors
07-19-03, 03:14 PM
For losing partners I meant in the last year or so, but if you mean ever then OK I'll concede Gigabyte.

As for Elsa, they didnt leave they became bankrupt and the name was bought by some guys who couldnt get a deal from nvidia to continue.

Hercules did leave its true but they are not exactly an advert for success since their market share in europe dropped off a cliff after signing ati.

phye2002
07-19-03, 03:15 PM
I enjoy a lively debate, but call a spade a spade...... The entire FX series has been in one form or another, a big joke. We all know the issues plagueing the series so i won't rehash old arguments. the r300+ series has been selling for about a year, and is well, repeat well over a Million units sold.... that says alot considering how fickle the market is. This isn't a flame thread, this isn't a personal attack on the loyalties of a member...this is a thread to discuss HL2, and the reason some members believe that they are being unfairly treated because the video card they support (somewhat militantly), is Rumored to have issues with the game. Let's keep the blows above the belt please.