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View Full Version : HDMI capture device that can capture HDCP encrypted sources?


jalyst
02-24-11, 07:59 AM
Not sure if this forum is well geared for this sort of discussion.
This is the only sub-forum I found that comes "close" to the subject matter.
But there's been some very friendly/informative users in the past.
So I figured I'd throw this one out there....

I want one for legitimate reasons, not for some organisation's definition of pirating...
I'm interested for the purpose of capturing HD audio (normally found in BD's & PS3 Games, rarely XB360) via HDMI,
running it through a HRTF filter (for 2ch simulated surround), & then out through my modded Essence ST.

I realise with BD movies I can already do this in windows without the need for a capture card, so long as I have a PAP compliant card, BD reader, & softplayer that can do DH or similar.
And it's irrelevant whether my card is PAP compliant in Linux, so once the BD is ripped I should also be able to do this.

But as my Essence ST is not PAP compliant, it's not possible to handle the HD audio stream via the PAP process in Windows.
Capturing BD output from my PS3 via HDMI (once HDCP is stripped) should remove the PAP burden, then hopefully I can pass the signal to a HRTF filter, and then onto my Essence ST.

Another reason for HDMI capture is HD audio from console games...

Again I want my Essence ST to be the final DAC in the chain, not an AVR.
The only concern I have is desync, but if audio & video are passed to the capture device & video "passed-through", then clocking should remain "fairly" in-sync.
Of course because of the post-processing assoc/w running through a filter and then on to the ST, tweaking of timings may be necessary.

Sorry if this doesn't clearly convey what I'm wanting, write-up is quite rushed, strapped for time right now.
Thank-you for your time/thoughts/advice! All the best.

ViN86
02-24-11, 09:22 AM
Why HDMI? Why not use the optical out? BD players, the PS3, and the 360 all support it.

Use an optical in on your PC. This card has one.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102023&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Sound+Card-_-Creative+Labs-_-29102023

jalyst
02-24-11, 09:27 AM
Because s/pdif is limited to dd/dts 5.1...
There does appears to be a few "work-arounds" with some hdmi capture cards, so that hdcp sources can be captured.

Just not seen any of these "work arounds" result in 8-ch LPCM (DD & DTS had audio formats) being brought across with the HD video. So far it seems limited to 2-ch LPCM...

jalyst
02-24-11, 09:57 AM
some fairly interesting insights have already started to pop up in these 2 threads
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1479998#post1479998
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/332189-HDCP-compliant-HDMI-capture-card?p=2059163#post2059163
I've just realised the heading i used for them both is somewhat ambiguous :)

One potential direction will to be head back down the "analogue hole" route...
And be limited to s/pdif capture using a device like the colossus, hd-pvr, or just a sound-card.
But I want to be certain 1st that the former direction isn't feasible, it's not conclusive yet.

jalyst
02-25-11, 02:10 AM
ViN86/anyone? Thank-you.

jalyst
02-25-11, 06:16 AM
*bump* sorry, just in a massive rush :(

Rakeesh
02-26-11, 12:33 AM
Wait is somebody on there hinting that you can get around HDCP by hacking an avermedia card? If so what card is this and where do you get the hack?

I want to watch digital cable on my PC over HDMI (not interested in recording it, already have a tivo for that) and would like to know if this is possible as all digital content is HDCP protected.

jalyst
02-26-11, 12:51 AM
Yeah, have a close look at this thread I linked to...
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/332189-HDCP-compliant-HDMI-capture-card?p=2059163#post2059163
Don't know if it'll work with all cable boxes, but it works with at least once HDCP source (PS3), so it should in theory work for others.
Audio is limited to 2ch PCM though, for some bizarre reason that's about the best most HDMI capture cards can do :(

jalyst
02-26-11, 12:51 AM
can you add any advice to this thread? thanks.

jalyst
02-27-11, 07:49 AM
...

jalyst
04-11-11, 09:22 AM
....

jalyst
04-11-11, 12:41 PM
Oh I'm not arguing it'll be legal, at least according to the the US's DMCA...
But I don't want to circumvent HDCP for illegitimate purposes e.g. copying copyright content.

Here's one example of a card that can capture hdcp sources
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1457132#post1457132
There's one or two other examples if i recall correctly...

And of course one doesn't need to limit themselves to cards w/a software flaw that allows one to circumvent HDCP.
There are strippers aplenty around now, including ones that supposedly pass "HD" audio via HDMI.
One small problem though, there still isn't bloody anything that can capture that passed "HD" audio!

The only thing I've found so far that comes close is this (http://www.digitalnow.com.au/CaptureX_HDMI.htm).
But it's not clear whether it's "HD"* DD/DTS, or just regular 5.1.
I suspect it'll only be 2-ch PCM & hence just regular DD/DTS?
I'm emailing them for more detail....

Also the colossus will supposedly have DTS 5.1 support soon, along with DD 5.1 via HDMI.
It's only 2-ch PCM & of course can't support the "HD" formats I was hoping for, but it's likely to be better supported than the above option.

The only other devices that come kinda close, but I doubt will be usable unless anyone can verify/debunk are:
http://www.grassvalley.com/products/pegasus
Available via USB or PCIe
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
No PCI/e card option...
http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/pc/mxo2_family/
Still not listed on OEM's site, I've emailed to find out when they'll release, & for more detail
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1491617#post1491617

Not every BD utilises HD audio & it's not for capturing HD audio from BD's anyway, as that can be done "on PC".
It's for capturing HD audio that's sometimes used in PS3 games, and on the rare occasion, Xbox games.
Although for the latter I won't be able to grab HD audio, because Xbox's can only pass DD/DTS 5.1 2ch LPCM externally.

But it's looking increasingly unlikely that a HDMI device that can capture HD audio exists.
So I may have to settle for one of the aforementioned, or one of the soundcards that does the same.

OR...

A multi-ch analogue capture card, but that just gets too complicated don't you reckon?!?
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta44.html
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta66.html
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010LT.html

If I go for digital capture....
I'm leaning more towards the colossus, as it can also capture/transcode analogue, which may be handy if DVB-C tuning's unreliable! :)

*"HD" = DTS-MA & TrueHD 7.1 (& more) HD surround formats

ViN86
04-11-11, 01:34 PM
May I ask why is 5.1 not sufficient?

jalyst
04-11-11, 01:45 PM
It might have to do... Of the devices i mentioned...

Only one can do DD/DTS 5.1 (prolly 2ch), or possibly DTS-MA/TruHD 8ch LPCM, but highly unlikely.
The colossus may be another option not yet on my list, as there's talk that DTS 5.1 is also coming for hdmi.

As to why DD/DTS 5.1 is not sufficient....
I will explain later or reread my earlier posts (pretty sure i explained then), 440am.

ViN86
04-11-11, 01:54 PM
It might have to do... Of the devices i mentioned...

Only one can do DD/DTS 5.1 (prolly 2ch), or possibly DTS-MA/TruHD 8ch LPCM, but highly unlikely.
The colossus my be another option not yet on my list, as there's talk that DTS 5.1 is also coming for hdmi.

As to why DD/DTS 5.1 is not sufficient....
I will explain later or reread my earlier posts (pretty sure i explained then), 440am.

You said that you didn't want Optical or SPDIF because they only carry 5.1, but you didn't say why you need 7.1 as opposed to 5.1. I really doubt you will be able to tell a difference on your own setup, and capturing audio via SPDIF or optical is much easier than messing with HDMI and HDCP.

jalyst
04-12-11, 02:00 AM
You said that you didn't want Optical or SPDIF because they only carry 5.1, but you didn't say why you need 7.1 as opposed to 5.1. I really doubt you will be able to tell a difference on your own setup, and capturing audio via SPDIF or optical is much easier than messing with HDMI and HDCP.

Not every BD utilises HD audio & it's not for capturing HD audio from BD's anyway, as that can be done "on PC".
It's for capturing HD audio that's sometimes used in PS3 games, and on the rare occasion, Xbox games.
Although for the latter I won't be able to grab HD audio, because Xbox's can only pass DD/DTS 5.1 2ch LPCM externally.

But it's looking increasingly unlikely that a HDMI device that can capture HD audio exists.
So I may have to settle for one of the aforementioned (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2417023&postcount=12), or one of the soundcards that does the same.

OR...

A multi-ch analogue capture card, but that just gets too complicated don't you reckon?!?
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta44.html
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta66.html
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010LT.html

If I go for digital capture....
I'm leaning more towards the colossus, as it can also capture/transcode analogue, which may be handy if DVB-C tuning's unreliable! :)

marqmajere
04-12-11, 02:09 AM
90% of capture cards / devices won't record HDMI sources because it's considered copyrighted material. HOWEVER, I personally use the Avermedia Avertv HD DVR. It's around $100 or so. I then use a powered splitter to send the hdmi signal to both my tv and my pc. Using the software that came with the Avertv, you can run the hdmi option and it will give you an error. Once it does that (leave the software running) fire up VH Capture (a free software download) to actually see the hdmi signal. You can then use fraps to record the vid feed. It sounds like a hassle, but it's actually pretty easy to set up and it takes great video records. Hope this helps.

jalyst
04-12-11, 02:15 AM
Attention modz, apologies for the inconvenience, but can we change thread title to:
HDMI device that can capture (unencrypted) "HD" audio sources?
The one I suggested earlier was a bit "long winded"... :)

Thanks!

jalyst
04-12-11, 02:38 AM
HOWEVER, I personally use the Avermedia Avertv HD DVR. It's around $100 or so. I then use a powered splitter to send the hdmi signal to both my tv and my pc. Using the software that came with the Avertv, you can run the hdmi option and it will give you an error. Once it does that (leave the software running) fire up VH Capture (a free software download) to actually see the hdmi signal. You can then use fraps to record the vid feed. It sounds like a hassle, but it's actually pretty easy to set up and it takes great video records. Hope this helps.

Yeah I know about that, I think I already mentioned it earlier in this thread.
Alas the Aver card is only capable of 2ch LPCM & does not recognise DD/DTS formats.

Also there's a stripper available soon, that negates the need to rely on such "software flaws".
So I can use any HDMI capture card that comes closer to my requirements...
The great thing about this stripper is that it does HDMI-out (inc. audio), & supposedly may also pass "HD" audio.

jalyst
04-13-11, 03:09 PM
...

jalyst
04-14-11, 02:27 PM
Anyone, post #12 (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2417023#post2417023)? Thank-you.

Modz can you please change thread title:
HDMI device that can capture (unencrypted) "HD" audio sources?

jalyst
04-18-11, 01:55 PM
......

jalyst
04-19-11, 02:39 AM
The only other devices that come kinda close, but I doubt will be usable unless anyone can verify/debunk are:
http://www.grassvalley.com/products/pegasus
Available via USB or PCIe
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
No PCI/e card option...
http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/pc/mxo2_family/

I think these 3 can all be ruled-out, because as far as I can tell...
None support reading/capturing any of the incoming DD/DTS formats?
This leaves only the Colossus, CaptureX, MonsterXX, or the Analogue capture cards.
I've asked Skydigital (CaptureX) questions similar to this:

(1) Does the card allow "real-time processing"?

i.e. Many (not all) capture devices allow real-time access to captured data.
That way it can be grabbed & reprocessed/redirected, as the remaining data comes in.

(2) What format is the captured audio data stored once it's dumped locally?

Signs are positive based on their feedback to those questions (they're Koreans).
Although so far I've not had feedback directly from them...
Only reformatted & sent via a retailer here in Australia, who -bizarrely- won't give me their direct addy.
Skydigital only have a web-form on their site, which they won't respond to :(
I'm trying to work out how to contact them directly, I don't trust the retailer acting as a intermediary.

I'm yet to ask Hauppauge the same set of questions...
I will also formulate a similar set of questions for M-Audio, to see if their analogue cards are suitable.
For the MonsterXX (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1491617#post1491617) (SKNet) there's absolutely no specs on their product page yet.
So far SKNet has only confirmed it's going into production, they have not answered my other questions :(
(They're Japanese)

If anyone can think of anything else that needs to be asked, please advise.
If you know how I can get answers to my current questions for MonsterXX & CaputreX, please do tell!
I'm not anticipating any issues in getting feedback from Hauppauge.

jalyst
04-20-11, 08:11 AM
Google voice works beautifully w00t!
Got through to Hauppauge in Singapore, & SKNet in Japan successfully.
Skydigital & others here I come, no longer shall you ignore me!
Hopefully more updates in 24hrs, once I've got much more feedback.

jalyst
04-22-11, 02:42 AM
I think these 3 can all be ruled-out, because as far as I can tell...
None support reading/capturing any of the incoming DD/DTS formats?
This leaves the Colossus, CaptureX, MonsterXX, or the Analogue capture cards.
I've asked Skydigital (CaptureX) questions similar to this:
<SNIP>

Based on feedback I've now gathered from all OEM's...
I'm going to try makes/models in the following order, if the prior make/model turns-out to be unsuitable etc.

(1) Colossus (http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_colossus.html) (Hauppauge)
(2) CaptureX (http://www.digitalnow.com.au/CaptureX_HDMI.htm) (Skydigital)
(3) Semi-Pro soundcard (exact make/model YTBD, suggestions welcome!)

(4) Delta ? (http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.family&ID=PCIinterfaces) (M-Audio: one of their cheaper PCI/e multich analog capture cards)
(5) Pegasus (http://www.grassvalley.com/products/pegasus) (GrassValley: no HDMI-in DD/DTS but it does support 8ch LPCM, the main reason it stays on the list)
(6) MX02 family (http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/pc/mxo2_family/) (Matrox: external & no DD/DTS support, but there may be other redeeming qualities, YTBC)

It's not clear if the MonsterXX's audio specs will be suitable.
SKnet (http://www.sknet-web.co.jp/) (Japan) explained that they won't release them for at least one more month.

Intensity Pro (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/techspecs/) (Blackmagic) audio specs don't look suitable.
The Shuttle's better & perhaps more suitable than the Pegasus (uses newer HDMI), but it's external (USB3).
So for now Blackmagic's products are "off my radar" entirely.

If anyone feels the order should be different, please let me know why!

Thanks again.