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digitalwanderer
08-08-03, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Zardon
Ever wonder what the value of the two big graphic companies are? As of noon EST today, ATI is now the bigger company in terms of market capitalization (number of shares outstanding times share price). This is the first time this is the case in a very long time.

NVIDIA market capitalization 2.485 Billion US Dollars Info here (http://www.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=NVDA&d=t)
ATI market capitalization 2.739 Billion US Dollars Info here (http://www.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=ATYT&d=t)

:cool:

Link (http://www.driverheaven.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23072)

raysusan
08-08-03, 11:31 AM
ati over take nvidia?:confused:

combat_wombat
08-08-03, 11:48 AM
that's kind of funny, yesterday nv's market cap was over $3bil, but their stock has taken a dump in the last day.

btw, I fail to see how this makes ATI richer, Nvidia has more cash in the bank than ATI does. Just look at their books, both are publically held companies

digitalwanderer
08-08-03, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by combat_wombat
btw, I fail to see how this makes ATI richer, Nvidia has more cash in the bank than ATI does. Just look at their books, both are publically held companies
I suck with all things financial, so could you please explain that statement to me a bit? Having the largest market capitol doesn't translate into the richest company? (I'm not trying to flame here, I honestly suck with financial stuff and am seriously asking. )

B&R
08-08-03, 12:48 PM
Last time i saw like a month ago.. i thought nVidia had 3.26 billion and Ati around 2.76.:confused:

digitalwanderer
08-08-03, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by B&R
Last time i saw like a month ago.. i thought nVidia had 3.26 billion and Ati around 2.76.:confused:
Yup, last month... ;)

LycosV
08-08-03, 01:13 PM
Unfortunatly thanks to the volitle nature of the stock market, company "value" is often misrepresented. If a companies stock skyrockets the "value" of the company is calculated as if all of their stock was sold at the insanely overinflated price (Which is of course not possible). To assertain the true worth of a company, some in depth looking is required. A great example is Iomega. If anyone remembers their stock skyrocketed by like 200% back in the dot-com boom, increasing their companies "value" but it quickly tanked back down. Did the company actually become worth any more or less in that time, nope. It's just the crazy stock market.

LycosV

ricercar
08-08-03, 01:19 PM
Market Cap is basically a Wall Street fiction, an arbitrary stock broker's value of a company that has no bearing on a company's daily operations. Basically Wall Street valuation depends on future performance or growth potential. Wall Street finds current performance or current success totally irrelevant, except where it indicates future growth.

When a CEO says profits and revenue won't grow next quarter as fast as they did last quarter, Wall Street becomes less happy and looks elsewhere to make a quicker buck. Wall Street hammered NVIDIA last night because last night Jen Hsun said that future growth will increase by "only" 5% instead of a bigger number. In other words, even though NVIDIA is making more money in 2003 than NVIDIA made in 2002, Wall Street wanted even more profits, and is looking elsewhere.

Note that NVIDIA profits and revenue have not decreased. Stock price doesn't change the daily operation of a company, except if it affects the customer morale and prevents sales. In day-to-day reality, nothing has changed financially for NVIDIA operations. NVIDIA still sells more units-per-year than ATI, NVIIDA still has more market share than ATI--especially in the critical cash cow mainstream performance realm--and NVIDIA still has billions more cash in the bank than ATI.

I own NVIDIA stock and I own NVIDIA graphics cards. Performance of NVDA on Wall Street doesn't change performance of a GeForce card in my machine, and the reverse is also true.

B&R
08-08-03, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Yup, last month... ;)

but come on 1 month and such a big shift?

reever2
08-08-03, 01:22 PM
BOth ati and nvidias market cap has dropped from abour 3-3.3billion back to the 2.7billion mark

ricercar
08-08-03, 01:23 PM
it's not about one month. It's about a CEO reporting that the last 90 days of growth will not be the same as next 90 days of growth.

c4c
08-08-03, 01:55 PM
nm

Skuzzy
08-08-03, 02:48 PM
Stocks are funny beasts. I suspect the drop in NVidia's stock had more to do with the low projections against ATI's higher projections.
Sort of makes it sound like ATI will be kicking NVidia around in the marketplace to the stock folks. Whether it is true or not is irrelevant.

It's all a game, albeit a potentially lucrative one.

extreme_dB
08-08-03, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by ricercar
NVIDIA still sells more units-per-year than ATI, NVIIDA still has more market share than ATI--especially in the critical cash cow mainstream performance realm--and NVIDIA still has billions more cash in the bank than ATI.

The cash cow is actually the value/intergrated market. :)

Nvidia has ~1 billion in cash, and ATI has about 1/4 of that.

I listened to the conference call yesterday and could not believe the crap being said about their products. Nvidia claimed the unambiguous performance lead with up to a 67% advantage over the competition in benchmarks! :eek: They actually endorsed 3dmark03 (obviously because the 5900U is on top) and said they lead in 3dmark for DX8 and DX7 too, which is simply not true.

They danced around some investor questions which was strangely familiar. :rolleyes:

Even though Nvidia is a much healthier company than ATI, I guess investors got tired of their BS.

CapsLock
08-08-03, 03:12 PM
Say now- aren't we actually treading into very illegal sort of territory? Fraud, misrepresentation, something like that?

You know, I really don't know how nvidia get away with stuff like this. It boggles my mind.

Caps

digitalwanderer
08-08-03, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by CapsLock
Say now- aren't we actually treading into very illegal sort of territory? Fraud, misrepresentation, something like that?

You know, I really don't know how nvidia get away with stuff like this. It boggles my mind.

Caps
OMFG, I totally agree!

I'm actually listening to the conference call now (http://biz.yahoo.com/cc/9/32929.html) and it is just unfricking real the BS they are talking! :mad:

They're claiming the 5900 Ultra has a 67% performance lead over their competition?!?! Who the heck is this "competition" of which they refer to?!?

It bugged me when they declared the 5900 U a winner over the 9800 Pro since I think the court is still out on it, but to claim a 67% performance lead over it?!?!

In-FRICKING-sane! :rolleyes:

Paul
08-08-03, 03:24 PM
I don't recall anything in the conference call being a direct lie. There is probably some specific benchmark that nV can get a 67% performance advantage in. Sure, the reverse is true also - But they don't have to mention everything, and thus won't.

ATi is exactly the same, so please take your blinkers off.

NickSpolec
08-08-03, 03:34 PM
I don't recall anything in the conference call being a direct lie. There is probably some specific benchmark that nV can get a 67% performance advantage in. Sure, the reverse is true also - But they don't have to mention everything, and thus won't.


Is that with or without cheats :D


P.S. Nvidia, buttering up the numbers? I'm so surprised.

digitalwanderer
08-08-03, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Paul
ATi is exactly the same, so please take your blinkers off.
I really don't feel that they are. ATi has been listening to it's customers and been giving them what they want, nVidia has been trying to tell it's customers what they want and tell 'em they like it. :mad:

And at least ATi ain't afraid to talk to their customers... :p

ChrisRay
08-08-03, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by ricercar
Market Cap is basically a Wall Street fiction, an arbitrary stock broker's value of a company that has no bearing on a company's daily operations. Basically Wall Street valuation depends on future performance or growth potential. Wall Street finds current performance or current success totally irrelevant, except where it indicates future growth.

When a CEO says profits and revenue won't grow next quarter as fast as they did last quarter, Wall Street becomes less happy and looks elsewhere to make a quicker buck. Wall Street hammered NVIDIA last night because last night Jen Hsun said that future growth will increase by "only" 5% instead of a bigger number. In other words, even though NVIDIA is making more money in 2003 than NVIDIA made in 2002, Wall Street wanted even more profits, and is looking elsewhere.

Note that NVIDIA profits and revenue have not decreased. Stock price doesn't change the daily operation of a company, except if it affects the customer morale and prevents sales. In day-to-day reality, nothing has changed financially for NVIDIA operations. NVIDIA still sells more units-per-year than ATI, NVIIDA still has more market share than ATI--especially in the critical cash cow mainstream performance realm--and NVIDIA still has billions more cash in the bank than ATI.

I own NVIDIA stock and I own NVIDIA graphics cards. Performance of NVDA on Wall Street doesn't change performance of a GeForce card in my machine, and the reverse is also true.

Yup. Essentially. Company Value does not equate to company Market Share. company Value does not equate to company Profit.

I doubt Digital Wanderer Even listened to this tho. He sees it as some huge victory for ATi. When in fact. It's just another day on Wall Street.

It can just as easily happen to ATI as if it were to happen to Nvidia.

Skuzzy
08-08-03, 03:38 PM
CEO's/Presidents have a responsibilty to thier investors they cannot side step. When addressing the stock analysts, they will say what needs to be said to bolster confidence.
Remember, the stock analysts are not tech heads. If NVidia can show they can flip a bit on and off, in a register, 67% faster than ATI, then the claim is justified for the purpose it is intended.

Perspective folks, perspective.

Paul
08-08-03, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by NickSpolec
Is that with or without cheats :D


P.S. Nvidia, buttering up the numbers? I'm so surprised.

In this situation, it's irrelevant whether they cheated or not. They can claim they are 67% faster in some circumstances, and not be lying.

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
I really don't feel that they are. ATi has been listening to it's customers and been giving them what they want, nVidia has been trying to tell it's customers what they want and tell 'em they like it.

Again, in this situation they're exactly the same. You think ATi would tell their investors and interested partners that nVidia is beating them by X% in Y Benchmark? No. You report the good things, and if you're forced to talk about the bad, you present it in the best light possible.

This isn't about chatter on an ethusiast message board - This is the real world. Phrasing things wrong on here leads to mild confusion or anger. Phrasing things wrong out there leads to the loss of millions of dollars.

Slight difference.

NickSpolec
08-08-03, 03:43 PM
Let's face it --- As of late, everything Nvidia says or reports is almost all BS. It's misleading, PR bullsh*t. Pure and simple.

Nvidia doesn't live in reality, they live in the Nvidia fantasy.

digitalwanderer
08-08-03, 03:45 PM
I guess the 19+% drop of their stock today isn't reflective of anything either and I shouldn't go reading anything into it. :(

Skuzzy
08-08-03, 03:49 PM
Paul is correct. The job/career of a CEO/President is measured by the Board of Directors. If he/she does not keep the stock analysts happy, he/she will be out of work.

In that light, you accentuate the positive and side step the negative as much as possible.

Look, I don't like the guy and think he is a ego-manical person with delusions of godhood, but in this instance, he is just doing the job he is expected to do.

The fact that the stock dropped says the stock analysts were not happy, but that could be due to ATI's projections being much better than NVidia's as much as anything.