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sbp
08-10-03, 03:32 AM
The Japanese manufacturer of Pokemon games won't be making more of its flagship GameCube consoles until this fall because of an inventory backlog, the president of Nintendo Co. said Thursday.

Satoru Iwata said the game market shrank dramatically last year, especially in Japan, because players were simply getting tired of spending the time and energy required to navigate increasingly sophisticated games.

more: http://technology.nzoom.com/technology_detail/0,1608,211897-113-381,00.html

PsychoSy
08-10-03, 05:31 AM
No big deal as this happens all the time among the console makers. It is bad news for Nintendo who is currently in dead last place in the console wars and, as a result, Nintendo is none too pleased about it and rumors are circulating they intend to fight tooth and nail to become #1 with their next console (which is allready in development).

However, such a thing is easier said than done. The Big N hasn't realized that the gamers have "moved on". The average gamer today is between 18-35 and Nintendo's console strategy isn't going keep them afloat. These types of consumers don't want a console that "just plays games". With no extras like watching DVDs, backward compatibility, and online play, Nintendo is simply doomed - now moreso then ever because Sony is entering the handheld business which is where Nintendo's GameBoy has had next to no competition in 13 years. In fact, Nintendo gains most of its revenue from the GameBoy and Pokemon trading card markets, not the GameCube. Now that Sony is entering that market with their own handheld, Nintendo has to wake up and FAST!

Also, it doesn't help when they ridicule the types of games that gamers are buying in droves. Recently, they prattled about how a game like "Grand Theft Auto" would never grace their consoles because they feel it is an offensive, morally corrupt game that glorifies crime and it would hurt their reputation as being more a "family oriented" company. That attitude is exactly why they are DEAD LAST - in any business, you have to either lead, follow, and get out of the way. Nintendo hasn't been a leader since the 8-bit days and hasn't followed since the 16-bit days where Sega beat them hand over fist.

Look where Sega is now! They woke up - granted it took a long time and many years of hemmoraging money, but they eventually woke up. Sega finally realized that they didn't have the financial resouces to bring affordable innovations of console hardware to the market place and changed to a software only company developing games for all three console systems. They couldn't compete with the deep coffers of Sony and Microsoft. Nintendo, on the other hand, can compete with them but they continue to grip that "gamers are teeny-boopers whose parents buy them everything" in a frail strangle-hold that's simply no longer true in the gaming industry.

Capcom, at this moment, is kicking themselves in the ass for signing the "Resident Evil" exclusive deal to Nintendo. Since the GameCube isn't doing so hot, the money Nintendo paid them for the exclusive rights is vastly inferior to what Capcom could rake in if "Resident Evil 4" was also on either the X-Box or PS2. As a result, Nintendo has been having great difficulty signing other exclusive deals with other developers - they take one look at the money this last-place console maker is offering them and weighing it against what they could potentially make if their titles were on all three systems. As a result, they demand more money which Nintendo balks at. Thus, the exclusive deals fall thru and Nintendo is back to square one.

If the features of their next console does not match or exceed what Microsoft and Sony plan on delivering - which will do more than just play games - as well as wooing third-party developers to deliver some of their franchise titles, The Big N is simply doomed.

Anyway, what this temporary moratorium on GameCube manufacturing means is that warehouses are full to capacity with plenty of supply to meet the demand. But since there's no real "must have" titles that are creating a demand for the GameCube...I predict that Nintendo will slash the GameCube's price down to $99 by October. That'll create some demand that'll put some of the GameCube systems in a home instead of in a warehouse.

Fusion
08-10-03, 06:20 AM
I completely agree with PsychoSy, that was a good post.

I will add that, Nintendo lately have been way too arrogant.

Their stance on importers, and using lawyers to threaten them, and with the recent Pokemon fiasco, isn't going to help them.

For crying out loud N, you are still making money.

And why is Animal Crossing not allowed in the UK ?
And because of this, Why can't we import it ?

Then there's the recent price fixing, whereby they were found to be keeping prices artificially high, on both hardware and software.

Then the GBA fiasco where they just wouldn't accept that users hated the screen, and wanted a backlit screen. And once they saw that money was being made on screens (Afterburner), they suddenly came out with the SP.
The price of GBA games is appalling, especially since the majority of them are old SNES titles without any enhancements. Talk about cashing it in.
If only the GP32 was more accepted everywhere. Superior in every way to the GBA. And tons of amazing emulators (ever wanted a handheld speccy ? Or a handheld Atari ST ?) This thing would wipe the floor with the GBA.

StealthHawk
08-10-03, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by PsychoSy
Also, it doesn't help when they ridicule the types of games that gamers are buying in droves. Recently, they prattled about how a game like "Grand Theft Auto" would never grace their consoles because they feel it is an offensive, morally corrupt game that glorifies crime and it would hurt their reputation as being more a "family oriented" company. That attitude is exactly why they are DEAD LAST - in any business, you have to either lead, follow, and get out of the way. Nintendo hasn't been a leader since the 8-bit days and hasn't followed since the 16-bit days where Sega beat them hand over fist.

Eh, Sega beat Nintendo hand over fist in the 16bit days? I always hear people talking about how they loved their Super Nintendo, how it was the best console they ever owned, I simply don't hear that about Genesis. If you could link to some sales figures showing that Sega outsold Nintendo I would be bery interested in that.

Look where Sega is now! They woke up - granted it took a long time and many years of hemmoraging money, but they eventually woke up. Sega finally realized that they didn't have the financial resouces to bring affordable innovations of console hardware to the market place and changed to a software only company developing games for all three console systems. They couldn't compete with the deep coffers of Sony and Microsoft. Nintendo, on the other hand, can compete with them but they continue to grip that "gamers are teeny-boopers whose parents buy them everything" in a frail strangle-hold that's simply no longer true in the gaming industry.

Well, it's not so much that Sega was not innovative. Saturn definitely had some potential, but it was a bitch to program for compared to Playstation. Dreamcast wasn't bad either, but the specter of Playstation2 and Xbox basically killed it in the cradle.

Capcom, at this moment, is kicking themselves in the ass for signing the "Resident Evil" exclusive deal to Nintendo. Since the GameCube isn't doing so hot, the money Nintendo paid them for the exclusive rights is vastly inferior to what Capcom could rake in if "Resident Evil 4" was also on either the X-Box or PS2. As a result, Nintendo has been having great difficulty signing other exclusive deals with other developers - they take one look at the money this last-place console maker is offering them and weighing it against what they could potentially make if their titles were on all three systems. As a result, they demand more money which Nintendo balks at. Thus, the exclusive deals fall thru and Nintendo is back to square one.

Indeed, I found it strange that Capcom had a love affair with Nintendo after scorning them in the Nintendo64 days...too bad for Capcom Xbox didn't flop after its poor sales and instead surpassed GameCube.

If the features of their next console does not match or exceed what Microsoft and Sony plan on delivering - which will do more than just play games - as well as wooing third-party developers to deliver some of their franchise titles, The Big N is simply doomed.

From what I have heard, Nintendo will not be moving forward with online gaming in its next console...big mistake IMO. Connectivity is the next step forward.

Anyway, what this temporary moratorium on GameCube manufacturing means is that warehouses are full to capacity with plenty of supply to meet the demand. But since there's no real "must have" titles that are creating a demand for the GameCube...I predict that Nintendo will slash the GameCube's price down to $99 by October. That'll create some demand that'll put some of the GameCube systems in a home instead of in a warehouse.

When all is said and done, I could care less about Nintendo. They make some good games to be sure, but so do other companies. Nintendo is just always late with their products, and milks them for far too long. They are always the last to come out with next gen consoles compared to their competition. Which was fine back in the day when they were number one. Nintendo64 was just poor hardware with too few outstanding games. GameCube actually has a lot better games right now than N64 ever had. I don't think I'd be disappointed at all if Nintendo just left the console business and made games only like Sega has done.

Fusion
08-10-03, 06:40 AM
Nintendo64 was just poor hardware with too few outstanding games.

Not for it's time, it had amazing hardware.
Remember, this was Waayyy before 3DFX.

CPU MIPS 64-bit RISC CPU (customized R4000 series)
Clock Speed: 93.75 MHz

MEMORY RAMBUS D-RAM 36M bit Transfer Speed: maximum 4,500M bit/sec.

CO-PROCESSOR RCP: SP (sound and graphics processor) and DP (pixel drawing processor) incorporated.
Clock Speed: 62.5MHz

RESOLUTION 256 x 224 ~ 640 x 480 dots.
Flicker-free interlace mode support

COLOR Color frame buffer support
21-bit color video output

GRAPHIC PROCESSING Z buffer
Anti-aliasing
Realistic texture mapping: Tri-linear filtered MIP-map interpolation, Perspective correction, Environment mapping

DIMENSIONS Width 260mm (10.23")
Depth 190mm (7.48")
Height 73mm (2.87")
WEIGHT: 1.1kg (2.42 lb.)


GameCube actually has a lot better games right now than N64 ever had

Again, sorry to disagree, but the N64 had some of THE finest games in history

Mario64 - Still THE defining 3D platformer, that NONE of today's consoles has matched.
Banjo-Kazooie
Banjo-Tooie
Blast Corps
Body Harvest
Castlevania - Legacy of Darkness
Choro Q 64 1 & 2
Conker's Bad Fur Day - What a laugh :)
Diddy Kong Racing
Donkey Kong 64
Excitebike 64
F-Zero X
GoldenEye 007 - The undisputed king of Console FPS
Jet Force Gemini
Kirby 64 - The Crystal Shards
Legend of Zelda, The - Majora's Mask
Legend of Zelda, The - Ocarina of Time
Mario Kart 64
Ogre Battle 64
Paper Mario - looked amazing for it's time.
Perfect Dark
Pilotwings 64
Star Fox 64
Wave Race 64
Yoshi's Story

StealthHawk
08-10-03, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Fusion
Not for it's time, it had amazing hardware.
Remember, this was Waayyy before 3DFX.

Yeah, it had really great graphics...for like the first one to two years it was out. Too bad after that it looked extremely dated compared to the PC with 3d acceleration, and the games were a blurry mess. A lot of the games had low framerate too. Especially in four player mode. Which is why I say the hardware was poor. It was powerful enough to create 3d worlds, but not powerful enough to create convincing 3d worlds with decent texture detail and non-repetitive textures at full speed.

Again, sorry to disagree, but the N64 had some of THE finest games in history

Mario64 - Still THE defining 3D platformer, that NONE of today's consoles has matched.
Banjo-Kazooie
Banjo-Tooie
Blast Corps
Body Harvest
Castlevania - Legacy of Darkness
Choro Q 64 1 & 2
Conker's Bad Fur Day - What a laugh :)
Diddy Kong Racing
Donkey Kong 64
Excitebike 64
F-Zero X
GoldenEye 007 - The undisputed king of Console FPS
Jet Force Gemini
Kirby 64 - The Crystal Shards
Legend of Zelda, The - Majora's Mask
Legend of Zelda, The - Ocarina of Time
Mario Kart 64
Ogre Battle 64
Paper Mario - looked amazing for it's time.
Perfect Dark
Pilotwings 64
Star Fox 64
Wave Race 64
Yoshi's Story

I never said it didn't have any good games. I still think the average GameCube game is better than the average Nintendo64 game. And that list hardly proves me wrong, considering it is compiled from a time of 5 years or so. Whereas GameCube has been out less than half of that time. And OMG, how could Smash Bros Melee not be on your list?! One of the most innovative and fun games ever.

saturnotaku
08-10-03, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
And OMG, how could Smash Bros Melee not be on your list?! One of the most innovative and fun games ever.

And Mario Golf! Two of the only reasons ever to own a Nintendo 64.

But Sy, I agree with 'ya 100%. I've seen more people walking out of local retailers with Xboxes and PS2s than Gamecubes.

I highly recommend taking a few minutes to read this (http://www.actsofgord.com/Proclamations/chapter01.html) lengthy piece on the 'cube. I found it to be very informative; it's written by a guy who owns a video game rental/sales store.

Fusion
08-10-03, 09:52 AM
Yeah, it had really great graphics...for like the first one to two years it was out. Too bad after that it looked extremely dated compared to the PC with 3d acceleration, and the games were a blurry mess. A lot of the games had low framerate too. Especially in four player mode. Which is why I say the hardware was poor. It was powerful enough to create 3d worlds, but not powerful enough to create convincing 3d worlds with decent texture detail and non-repetitive textures at full speed.

When Mario64 made it's debut, about the same time the console was previewed in Japan back in 1994, it literally BLEW everything the PC had, away. Nothing could touch it, it was a masterpiece. And hardly had a poor frame rate, despite looking amazing.


And OMG, how could Smash Bros Melee not be on your list?! One of the most innovative and fun games ever.

You had to be picky, didn't you :rolleyes:
I compiled that list in a few minutes, literally as I sat there typing it. And I think you'll agree that I covered the BEST of the N64, in such a short time.

And Mario Golf! Two of the only reasons ever to own a Nintendo 64.

It was hardly groundbreaking, like Mario64 was.
And hardly a reason to own an N64.

If you look at the best 100 games of all time, do you see Mario Golf ? Or Smash brothers ?
No, You see Mario64.
Although I do still like Mario Golf, oh and Mario Tennis.

The Baron
08-10-03, 09:58 AM
Mario 64 was trash... a 3D jumping puzzle? BOY OH BOY! HOW INVENTIVE! oh wait, okay, so it's inventive, IT JUST SUCKS.

Fusion
08-10-03, 10:07 AM
Taken from the Top 100 games of all time.

No.5

Name: Super Mario 64
Platform: Nintendo 64
Developer: EAD, Nintendo
Publisher: Nintendo
Year Released: 1996
Why it Made the Top 100 List: Designer Shigeru Miyamoto's Mario sequel is considered by many to be one of the greatest videogames of all time. The title successfully proved that the famously polished, tried-and-true 2D play mechanics of the Super Mario Bros. series could be translated to 3D and, indeed, even in some cases improved upon. It also simultaneously helped define 3D gaming as a whole and pushed Nintendo's plumber mascot even further into the spotlight as one of the most recognizable figures in the games industry. The platformer remains, even by today's harsh standards, a true masterpiece.

The Baron
08-10-03, 10:23 AM
Wasn't that the list that had Doom at #45 or something?

Hence, that list is BS. Complete and utter BS.

Fusion
08-10-03, 10:39 AM
Wasn't that the list that had Doom at #45 or something?

Hence, that list is BS. Complete and utter BS.

Whatever. :rolleyes:

saturnotaku
08-10-03, 10:58 AM
Do you have a link to that list? Not questioning the results (yet) but I want to see where everything stacks up.

a4164
08-10-03, 11:28 AM
this is probably the list he is referring to:

http://top100.ign.com/


I find that gamerankings.com is a better tool for ranking modern titles. In which case its rankings are based on published reviews (mag. and internet based):

http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/simpleratings.asp?rankings=y


The top 5 are:

1. Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (N64)
2. Metroid Prime (GameCube)
3. Soul Calibur (DreamCast)
4. Half-Life (PC)
5. Goldeneye 007 (N64)



Off-Topic, I have a GameCube, being that I am 23, I do not feel Nintendo of today pushes kiddie stuff on the consumer. I find that Nintendo would rather make games for all ages to enjoy. Not even for one second would I have Shigeru Miyamoto waste his time on a Grand Theft Auto clone (like the mainstream press keep crying for him to do) instead of on another title like Pikmin. That being said one of my favorite games this gen. and my pick for GOTY 2002 was Eternal Darkness, one of Nintendo's few Mature-rated titles. It was awesome, and better than Resident Evil Remake IMHO. Those insanity-effects; badass. I can not wait for Silicon Knights (the Nintendo 2nd party that did the title) to release the long delayed: Too Human. At least they are giving us Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes this christmas. Similarly, I am looking forward to Shinji Mikami's R&D4 studio and the work they are doing: Resident Evil 4, Killer 7, P.N.03, Viewtiful Joe, and Dead Phoenix. GameCube definitely has enough quality-mature content between Capcom and Silicon Knights; for Nintendo die-hards at least. Metroid Prime 1&2 , though rated T for Teen, I would not call Samus Aran's exploits kiddie.

In closing, I have found that it is the father of the Xbox, Seamus Blackley, that has best expressed what Miyamoto and Nintendo have become. You can hear that within this interview:

http://media.planetgamecube.com/PGCaudio/seamus/blackley.mp3

Fusion
08-10-03, 12:08 PM
this is probably the list he is referring to:

http://top100.ign.com/

Thats the one.

While it isn't what you'd call upto date with modern games, they DO have a wide and varied taste, from a few decades ago.

Whereas Gamerankings seems a wee bit biased towards the "Mainstream" games.

IMHO, No.2 and No.3 do not belong to Metroid Prime and Soul Calibur.

Viewtiful Joe

This actually looks great, and certainly a fresher approach to the platformer of today.
The rest of the list, however, looks a bit too mainstream for myself. Not saying it's bad, but just looks like it's all been done to death.

The Baron
08-10-03, 03:09 PM
5 of the top 6 games on the IGN list are Nintendo... yet you call the otherone more biased towards the mainstream?

And FF6 is better than FF4. Period.

saturnotaku
08-10-03, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
5 of the top 6 games on the IGN list are Nintendo... yet you call the otherone more biased towards the mainstream?


No kidding. And how could Half-Life or DooM not be in that top 10 list? If not for DooM, PC gaming as we know it would either be 1) dead or 2) so far behind the times that no one would be using them.

The Baron
08-10-03, 03:26 PM
No.

If it weren't for Doom, gaming as we know it would be dead.

None of those games on the top 10 with the exception of X-Com would exist without Doom.... and X-Com above Doom? Somebody's on crack.

StealthHawk
08-10-03, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Fusion
Taken from the Top 100 games of all time.

No.5

Ok, I'm not going to deny that Mario64 was great, but like 3/4 of the games you listed aren't on that list of the top100. Like I said, I'm not denying N64 had some great games, I'm disputing that the average game was any good. This escpecially being pertinent because Nintendo said that there would be fewer games on the system but the average game would have higher quality than competing systems. Which was utter BS, there were easily more "good" games on PS than on N64.

When Mario64 made it's debut, about the same time the console was previewed in Japan back in 1994, it literally BLEW everything the PC had, away. Nothing could touch it, it was a masterpiece. And hardly had a poor frame rate, despite looking amazing.

I didn't say Mario64 suffered from framerate problems
:rolleyes: I said a lot of games did, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, basically every FPS game. Of course not every game had low FPS, nor did I claim that.

You had to be picky, didn't you
I compiled that list in a few minutes, literally as I sat there typing it. And I think you'll agree that I covered the BEST of the N64, in such a short time.

No, I don't have to be picky, but I think Smash Bros was a lot more innovative and fun than half the games you listed as being great.

It was hardly groundbreaking, like Mario64 was.
And hardly a reason to own an N64.

If you look at the best 100 games of all time, do you see Mario Golf ? Or Smash brothers ?
No, You see Mario64.
Although I do still like Mario Golf, oh and Mario Tennis.

Half the games you listed weren't groundbreaking! They are more of the same, clones of great N64 games. Every 3d platform game was just a Mario64 clone, for example. Not to mention that many of the games you listed were SuperNES clones, and weren't too innovative, not that that stops them from being great. Star Fox64 was a great game, but it was just a clone of Star Fox original.

Originally posted by The Baron
Mario 64 was trash... a 3D jumping puzzle? BOY OH BOY! HOW INVENTIVE! oh wait, okay, so it's inventive, IT JUST SUCKS.

Well, you have to take into consideration that Mario64 was more of a tech demo than a game. It was made to showcase the control of the analog stick as well as the graphics subsystem. It was an amazing game. Although it got old fast. Definitely one of the best N64 games. One of the best games of all time? I don't know about that. Personally, I enjoyed playing Mario3 and Mario2 and Mario4 a lot more. The game deserves some props though, it was one of the first 3d jumping puzzle games...probably the first one that was done well.

Zenikase
08-10-03, 11:38 PM
Nintendo has always been a stubborn, arrogant company that refuses to change and adapt to the times. In their world, it's still 1988 and Nintendo is the only thing console gamers know. The late arrival of the SNES (triggered only by the introduction of the Sega Genesis, thank God), Nintendo's refusal to move on to cheaper, larger-capacity optical disk storage for the N64, their many rehases of the original Game Boy (and uninteresting technology with the GBA), their strong reluctance to online gaming, as well as their current fiasco with harsh importing restrictions on the European market just go to show that the company hasn't changed at all. The console gaming market has undergone dramatic changes, while Nintendo sticks their fingers in their ears and says "LA LA LA, WE'RE STILL NUMBER ONE."

Since the beginning, they've also had extremely poor relations with third party companies (the only reason there were so many games on the NES was because Nintendo bullied the developers into making them exclusive through monopolistic tactics). This showed especially during the N64, when Nintendo had a stroke of genius and decided to make an exclusive list of "quality" developers to make games on their new console (one of them being ******* ACCLAIM, for ****'s sake). I thought this was more of a PR move in an attempt to contrast with Sony's open-ended third-party policy, a way of turning the argument of "quality vs. quantity" into a marketing tactic. Well, the fruit of that idea was a huge success, with a system that debuted with two games, both of which were made by Nintendo. And now, it appears again with the GameCube being supported only by first- and second-party efforts. Aside from Super Monkey Ball and Rogue Squadron, there is an absolute dearth of third-party games for the system. Everything else is either shovelware or ports of games that are readily available on other platforms. Capcom was a bit too optimistic by making the Resident Evil series exclusive to the console (not that it's all that great a game, but it is a money-making franchise that sold very well on PlayStation). Now they've been burned by the GC's poor sales and it will probably just create more tension with Nintendo. Square, on the other hand, has been cautious with their entry to the market as well, developing a single title which, while bearing the Final Fantasy name, has little to no resemblance to the main series.

Another problem is Nintendo's current lack of innovation. I myself was very disappointed with Mario Sunshine, which was essentially a beefed up version of Mario 64. The latter game for me was an experience, because there was nothing like it before, and I was amazed by the fact that I was controlling a polygonal Mario in a 3D environment. It was the same for Ocarina of Time. Unlike SMS, I still found the Wind Waker to be a great game, but aside from its Waterworld-like environment, it's still the same N64 Zelda. Metroid Prime looks nice in first-person, but the gameplay from the NES and SNES incarnations has been left almost intact, with the exception of Samus's visors. Anyway, my point is that since we've made the move to 3D with the N64, it's time that Nintendo do something to keep gamers interested, instead of rehashing the same gameplay with all their classic franchises. You can only kill Ganon with the Master Sword so many times before the formula becomes stale.

I'm glad for games like Doshin the Giant, Cubivore, Animal Crossing, and Pikmin. The last two have been relatively big successes, which is surprising to me since they are both quirky, niche titles. This is the direction Nintendo needs to head in. They can keep the same old franchises, but now that they've offloaded them to third parties like Namco and Sega, it's time to think of something new.

PsychoSy
08-11-03, 12:03 AM
Eh, Sega beat Nintendo hand over fist in the 16bit days? I always hear people talking about how they loved their Super Nintendo, how it was the best console they ever owned, I simply don't hear that about Genesis. If you could link to some sales figures showing that Sega outsold Nintendo I would be bery interested in that.

I believe Sega thrashed Nintendo in the 16 bit era. They clearly won the battle but Nintendo won the war in the end even though that had to play "catch-up" from day one. Look at the lauch of both systems. The SNES only had about a dozen games at launch and Sega had many more, mostly coming from third parties. The combined deliverance of more titles at launch, a continued flow of a variety of games from their third-party support, and excellent marketing ("Sega Does What NintenDon't!"), catapulted Sega into the stratosphere, forcing Nintendo to play "catch-up" with the first 8 months of the SNES's release.

Another thing that helped Sega trash the big gorilla was thier stance on "controversial" games, some of which were published by EA and Razorsoft. EA were NOT official developers, but Razorsoft was. If you think back, the cartridge design on EA games were different and the box has a disclaimer "This Product Is Not Endorsed Or Licensed By Sega Of America". Two titles by EA at that time really stood out - Will Harvey's "The Immortal" and "The Sword Or Sodan". These games were pretty violent, gruesome, yet a blast to play. Razorsoft, on the other hand, pressed the "violence" evelope further with "TechnoCop" and the "nudity" evelope with their lackluster "StormLord". Granted, Stormlord did suck...but it created some controversy because many of the advertizements in gaming magazines at the time showed pictures of the game where the Stormlord would stand near a perfectly naked statue of a woman. Of course, by the time the game was released, Razorsoft was pressured to put a blouse and bikini on these naked statues.

Mortal Kombat really pushed the stone over the cliff. Sega didn't shackle Probe and Acclaim one bit except for requesting that the game defaults to no blood or gore unless the gamer inputs a specific code. Nintendo on the other hand totally bastardized Mortal Kombat removing all the blood and gore from it period. The result was Sega's version of MK sold tons more even though the SNES version looked and sounded more true to the arcade version just without the blood and guts. It encouraged Sega enough to try their own hand in the fighting game genre with Eternal Champions while Nintendo kept getting blasted for their "censorship" of otherwise violent games.

That was the turning point - Before MK, Nintendo was always behind Sega. With the rating system in place, Nintendo wowwed everybody when they announced that they wouldn't sanitize Mortal Kombat II - it would be a faithful arcade version. And it proved to be true as the SNES version of MKII played so faithfully to the arcade version that it ended up selling more than Sega's version. Both were pretty faith translations but the SNES version looked, sounded, and played more like the arcade version. It was at this period were Nintendo gained the momentum and, with the release of their own violent fighting game "Killer Instinct", they ultimately ended up winning the 16-bit war, but they had to play a game of catch-up to the Sega Genesis from day one.

The Nintendo of that era is simply no more. Sure, they might whip out with a mature-rated game here and there like Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness but most of their own titles are platformers and stuff. Which is fine - Nintendo does a great job in creating fun games for everyone but they continually restrict third-party developers with their "family values" business ethics, and by doing so, they are restricting their own growth and it's no wonder why they are dead last in the console wars.

Where's the GameCube version of Max Payne, Grand Theft Auto, or other best-selling mature titles that are in abundance on the PS2 and X-Box?!? Nowhere...but they would be there if Nintendo wasn't "stuck in the 80s" with their business ethics. They are in last place because they put themselves there by distancing themselves from these types of games and ridiculing their success. If Nintendo wants to be #2 next time around, not only does their hardware have to match or exceed what the PS2 or X-Box has to offer aside from gaming (let's be realistic - consoles today have to be proprietary SFF machines like what Shuttle and ECS offers on the PC market instead of a system that "just plays games") and they have to open the floodgates to all the third party developers and kick that old "gamers are kiddies" business model to the curb and stop preaching to the "family values" choir. There's a rating system in place as well as the internet, magazines, and other areas where parents can educate themselves instead of relying on Nintendo to be a nanny by proxy.

Nintendo dug that grave.

Now they have to dig themselves out of it...and they're not liking it.

Too bad!

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

But, for God sake, stop obstructing.

StealthHawk
08-11-03, 02:16 AM
Well, it looks to me that Nintendo thrashed Sega in the 16-bit round.

http://www.actsofgord.com/Proclamations/chapter01.html

(Edit: SNES sales. The last number I could find regarding SNES unit sales
was 36 million when they launched the redesigned unit. At this point the
SNES was a non-contender in the market and didn't rack up more than a few million in sales before it ceased to be. 40 million units maybe. Same
story, I've emailed Nintendo to get sales figures.)

Further, the PS2 is the fastest selling home console ever. It's past 22
million units sold worldwide, and it has only been outside of Japan for a
year. The Genesis in it's glorious 6 year run...only sold 21 million. The
Dreamcast? 7 million before Sega pulled the plug on it.

This guys sounds pretty credible to me, and he certainly isn't some Nintendo fanboy...so I'll trust his numbers. It sure as hell wasn't easy finding any site that had any numbers. Several other sites said the same thing, that SNES outsold Genesis, but gave no numbers.

Zenikase
08-11-03, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
This guys sounds pretty credible to me, and he certainly isn't some Nintendo fanboy...so I'll trust his numbers.

No, he's a godawful Sony fanboy whose idea of debating is pummeling you with as many numbers and sales figures as possible.

Nephilim
08-11-03, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by Zenikase
No, he's a godawful Sony fanboy whose idea of debating is pummeling you with as many numbers and sales figures as possible.

Actually, he owns/runs a game store. I think that qualifies him enough.

No amount of playing games will make you an expert in the field of video game retail. This is one thing that escape many people. If anyone could run a video game company, video game retail stores wouldn't have a 95%+ failure in the first year, and Sega (which produces some of the finest games in the world) wouldn't have lost money for 5 straight years. Try getting a loan from a bank to open a game store, they'll pretty much just laugh at you and say they've never loaned money to a profitable one yet. Riding in a plane doesn't make you a pilot, driving a car won't qualify to run GM, and being able to order off a menu won't qualify you to get on Iron Chef.

*snip*

So, unless you own your own store, or sport an MBA in marketing and have direct video game experience, you know as much about this industry as I do talking about making spacecrafts. Sure, I know some of theory, but I sure as hell couldn't build one.

a4164
08-11-03, 05:18 AM
The Nintendo of that era is simply no more. Sure, they might whip out with a mature-rated game here and there like Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness but most of their own titles are platformers and stuff. Which is fine - Nintendo does a great job in creating fun games for everyone but they continually restrict third-party developers with their "family values" business ethics, and by doing so, they are restricting their own growth and it's no wonder why they are dead last in the console wars.

Where's the GameCube version of Max Payne, Grand Theft Auto, or other best-selling mature titles that are in abundance on the PS2 and X-Box?!? Nowhere...but they would be there if Nintendo wasn't "stuck in the 80s" with their business ethics. They are in last place because they put themselves there by distancing themselves from these types of games and ridiculing their success. If Nintendo wants to be #2 next time around, not only does their hardware have to match or exceed what the PS2 or X-Box has to offer aside from gaming (let's be realistic - consoles today have to be proprietary SFF machines like what Shuttle and ECS offers on the PC market instead of a system that "just plays games") and they have to open the floodgates to all the third party developers and kick that old "gamers are kiddies" business model to the curb and stop preaching to the "family values" choir. There's a rating system in place as well as the internet, magazines, and other areas where parents can educate themselves instead of relying on Nintendo to be a nanny by proxy.


First off, Nintendo is not horribly in dead last. GameCube is #2 worldwide. They had sold 9.4 million consoles at the end of their fiscal year March 31, 2003 vs Xbox which had only reached that mark as of June 30, 2003 (the end of MS fiscal year). This is mostly due to the fact that Xbox has made little penetration into the Japanese market with under half a million units sold (~450,000). The current standing is Nintendo at 9.55 million units worldwide and Xbox at 9.4 million. Also, unlike Xbox, Nintendo breaks even on their consoles versus the $100 (although I think that is down to $75) loss that MS takes on each Xbox sold. Not to mention the huge losses of near $1 billion a year that MS' Home and Entertainment Division has to put up with to support Xbox. Nintendo only has about $6-7 billion in the bank. They could never follow MS' strategy (brute force/brute spending) for Xbox. MS has about $43 billion in the bank and Sony has about $30 billion. Its a miracle Nintendo can even compete at these levels.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3092795.stm

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/special_packages/6374432.htm


Secondly, though there was in fact these quotas under Hiroshi Yamauchi. The new president, Satoru Iwata, has worked very hard to change this. One example is Nintendo actually paying for the exclusivity for the Resident Evil franchise. Another can be seen in that god awful BMX XXX. Though Sony had its version censored for PS2 (no nudity). Nintendo's GameCube version was not censored (all the nudity of the Xbox version).

All your usual 3rd-party mature titles that can be ported over to GameCube have been, such as Splinter Cell, Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance, BloodRayne, Hunter:The Reckoning, Def Jam Vendetta, etc. Nintendo even managed to get Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes. Though Rockstar (Max Payne, etc.) really has no interest in putting its titles on GameCube, that is not Nintendo's fault. 3rd-parties are not obligated to port a game to GameCube, they are choosing not to port some of their titles (mature or otherwise) because they feel that the sales will not be there to justify it. GameCube's installed base is not as large as PS2, and so publishers really need to pick and choose what is viable for GameCube and what is not. Nintendo is also not as big as Sony or MS, so they can not offer them any cash or incentives to get them to port, or heaven forbid, make an exclusive mature title for GameCube. Nintendo is not stopping Rockstar from releasing titles on GameCube (see: Smuggler's Run:Warzones). Nintendo does not restrict mature titles on GameCube.

Also, concerning Grand Theft Auto, Sony has the exclusivity rights to it until 2004, with the option to renew. As for all these quality mature titles. I would love to know what they are? Because if the list reads like this:

Halo, Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberity, GTA3/Vice City, Devil May Cry etc.

those are exclusives to their respective consoles. With the exception of Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance which MS had to pay to get and didn't sell well on Xbox. Some of the greatest console games that MS has had to pay for from Sega (Panzer Dragoon Orta, Shenmue2, Jet Set Radio Future, GunValkyrie) all did horribly in terms of sales. That is why Nintendo does not throw around money to buy exclusivities. There is no guarantee that they will sell. Furthermore, Resident Evil Remake and Resident Evil Zero did sell ~1.5 million each. And if you read the reviews, alot of the criticism of these titles is that it is essentially the same game from 1996 with little to no gameplay improvements. Hardly insentive to run out and buy them.

The Nintendo of today is not the Nintendo of yesterday. With Hiroshi Yamauchi finally retired, you finally have a Final Fantasy and a Metal Gear title coming back to a Nintendo console. A Mortal Kombat with blood, and if you so choose an extremely bad BMX stunt game with nudity.


http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2003/20030709l.gif