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veridian3
08-13-03, 04:43 AM
http://www.driverheaven.net/dhinterviews/nvidia/

Stu

StealthHawk
08-13-03, 05:55 AM
Zardon: There has been a lot of negative publicity recently about “optimisations” for Futuremark’s 3dmark2003 which many see as inappropriate. ATI have stated they have removed all of their “optimisations”. Can you explain nvidia’s stance on appropriate benchmarking methods, and do you feel that you got a raw deal on this.

Derek: I don’t think we got a raw deal – what I do think is that these are complex devices (DX9 GPUs) and they take some explaining. In regards to our optimizations strategy, We optimize applications to get the best performance we can and deliver the best experience to the end user. It is common for GPU manufacturers to optimize shaders and code for major applications. For programmable shaders like we have today, there can be substantial differences between optimized and unoptimized code.

We will continue to do application specific performance optimizations and compatibility fixes. We met with Futuremark and discussed the optimizations they questioned. They now have a better understanding of the technology – and I think you’ll see them endorse our methodology.

In addition, we have new, stricter guidelines in place to insure that questionable optimizations do not get introduced in future driver builds. All future optimizations must pass the following checkpoints before it can before checked in to the driver:

An optimization must produce the correct image
An optimization must accelerate more than just a benchmark
An optimization must not contain pre-computed state


Zardon: When will we see the first driver which follows the new ”optimizations standards” that nVidia has set up for themselves?

Derek: They should be hitting the market this week – stay tuned.

This should be interesting. You guys should be able to spot some incompatibilities and contradictions here- but I guess we'll see how things turn out. It certainly appears that Derek is referring to the drivers that should be released tomorrow(actually later today :D ).

Hanners
08-13-03, 07:45 AM
I could go into great detail about parts of that interview, but to be honest it's just the typical nVidia PR rubbish we're all used to, so it isn't worth it.

I did find this bit hilarious though:

Zardon: How long have you worked with nvidia and do you enjoy working for the company?

Derek: I’ve been with the company for over 5 years now.

Does the fact that he skipped the 'do you enjoy working for the company' part means that he hates working for nVidia now?! :p

Richthofen
08-13-03, 08:17 AM
don't think so.
If he works over 5 years now at Nvidia he seems to enjoy and i would too :)
N1 company. They know how to run good business.

Mark_fox
08-13-03, 09:07 AM
haha, that is true, I just wish they knew how to properly treat their consumers and not only their customers . I'll believe in all this change when I see it...

Let’s not forget that only a few days ago Brian Burke stated clearly that It is against company policy for NVIDIA employees to post in forums. Now all the sudden week later you have Derek Perez saying you’ll see more NV people participating in public forums – answering questions and laying to rest rumors and speculation - I'll believe it when I see it...

And wasn't their 2nd policy "we do not comment on unannounced products or services or software, rumors etc..." so now they will? hmmm...I'll believe it when I see it...

Hellbinder
08-13-03, 10:13 AM
We'll they cant exactly Have the Hide in the closet attitude with ATi employees (even big wigs) running around all over the place. Meeting people, Talking to them, Sharing information, answering direct Questions about Drivers and such when possible, Playing online Hockey games with anyone who wants a whippin ;) ...

Unfortunately

We will continue to do application specific performance optimizations and compatibility fixes. We met with Futuremark and discussed the optimizations they questioned. They now have a better understanding of the technology – and I think you’ll see them endorse our methodology.

They now have a better understanding and agree with it??? Im sorry, But That does not sound like a good thing at all. Whats to understand about forcing FX12 instead of legal DX9 functions in a Public benchmark?? Whats good about wholesale lowering Quality and replacing entire reams of developers Code as you see fit??

I wonder how exactly they came to *Understand*. I also Wonder what the end result of such *understanding* will bring.

Uttar
08-13-03, 10:51 AM
Bah, at least I got the confirmation I wanted.
Zardon: In the past, nvidia has focused on major steps in its process changes: 0.25u->0.18u->0.15u->0.13u. The next big step is obviously 0.09u, but after the 0.13u debacle at TSMC, and considering IHVS wish to continue a rapid evolution of the transistor count, could it be that in the future nvidia would choose to do more minor steps, such as 0.14u to 0.11u?

Derek: First of all – I wouldn’t call the .13um process a “debacle”. I would call it difficult and a learning experience – and those experiences will help us to move forward in the evolution of these GPUs. Of course there are minor steps we can take, ie: going to .11um or .14um…but the next big step is to move to .09um process – and we look forward in doing so in time.

That was one of the questions I asked. Why did I ask it?
NV36, NV40 and NV43: 0.13u
NV34B and NV18C: 0.14u ( NV18C already in stores maybe, would be interesting to check, no reason they should have marketed it )
NV41, NV42 and NV45: 0.11u

I love how he managed to say "yes" while thinking he said "maybe", hehe.

BTW, this thing as hilarious...

Zardon: How can you see nvidia’s interactions with the general enthusiast community changing in the future?

Derek: I think you’ll see a couple of things. First of all – we’ve always monitored the community and listened to what they said – but very rarely have we communicated directly with them. So you’ll see more NV people participating in public forums – answering questions and laying to rest rumors and speculation. Also – you’ll see us sponsor more LAN parties, Gamefest, and so on. Doing tutorials, give-aways, sponsorships and more.

Okay, so I'll just spout a LOT of BS for the NV40, and we'll work by elimination to get the official spec. Anyone else agrees to work with me in that evil plot? ;) j/k

OT: Hellbinder: The NV3x architecture is good, you know. It's just they had an awful memory controller for the NV30 ( NV35 one ) and, well, they should have thought about driver overhead before implementing it, because it makes their "good" architecture impossible to use in a not awfully sub-par way, eh.
Which makes the NV3x theorically good, and practically awful.


Uttar

Johnmcl7
08-13-03, 10:54 AM
I take it this was an Nvidia interview then? *25* Nvidia logos on the single page!

It's good to see nice detailed answers to respond to the questions with...:rolleyes:

John

Paul
08-13-03, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Now I get why Allan was so pissed off and it was delayed so long. :( I'm truly starting to dislike Mr. Perez's condescending attitude. :mad:

Funny you should mention this, because i've been decidedly unhappy with a couple of responses from the ATi guys in the forums. They can get *very* defensive, *very* quickly.

digitalwanderer
08-13-03, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Paul
Funny you should mention this, because i've been decidedly unhappy with a couple of responses from the ATi guys in the forums. They can get *very* defensive, *very* quickly.
Really? Do you happen to have a link? I've never had a problem with them unless I ask them something they can't talk about, and then they just generally tell me "Well, I can't talk about that." and I drop it. (I do understand that they got commitments and responsibilities and such that don't allow them total freedom on the boards....unlike me who relishes it. ;) )

Paul
08-13-03, 11:27 AM
I had a quick look through a couple of pages, and only came across the one example (although there have been a couple of others over the last few months, which i noticed at the time): Third post from the bottom (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=151830)

There, it just seems like Uttar made an obvious joke, and he got defensive. That's quite a mundane example, but it's representative of a vibe i get from them sometimes.

Don't get me wrong though - most of the time they're fine and helpful. It's just odd little comments here and there, which come across badly. Regardless of whether he speaks for "himself", he still has a responsibility.

digitalwanderer
08-13-03, 11:35 AM
Thanks for the link. I dunno, mebbe the ATi employees who post are all individuals and tend to have their own personality traits or something weird like that. :eek2: (I don't think nVidia allows for that. ;) ) I'm really not as familar with OpenGL guy as I am with CatalystMaker, but I'll allow 'em some defensiveness as long as they keep coming around. ;)

combat_wombat
08-13-03, 11:37 AM
It would be cool if Nick Triantos posted around here, he is a very nice guy

otheipion
08-13-03, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Paul
I had a quick look through a couple of pages, and only came across the one example (although there have been a couple of others over the last few months, which i noticed at the time): Third post from the bottom (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=151830)

There, it just seems like Uttar made an obvious joke, and he got defensive. That's quite a mundane example, but it's representative of a vibe i get from them sometimes.

Don't get me wrong though - most of the time they're fine and helpful. It's just odd little comments here and there, which come across badly. Regardless of whether he speaks for "himself", he still has a responsibility.
OpenGLguy has responded rather passionately at times, but he is relatively new at ATI (I think - couple of years perhaps) and hasn't quite got the polish just yet. He knows his stuff though. I hardly think that he is representative of the average ATI staffer's post. I have found them to be extremely generous with their knowledge and time. Having said this, I must add that Terry (CatalystMaker) is at the other extreme :lol:; that dude is a virtual Energizer Bunny! :thumbsup:

ChrisRay
08-14-03, 10:28 PM
Personally I think Open GL guy really needs to step back from the forums for a while. I personally think the guy is just plain rude.

Course. I come from a customer support perspective that you should treat the customer with respect and show zero signs of frustration with them.

As long as you're under the badge of that company anyway. I wonder how ATI would react if they followed his posting more closely. Because that guy has borderlined on flames a few time IMO.

But then again. My Opinion comes from working as customer relations/tech support for both Microsoft and Directv.

Malfunction
08-14-03, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Thanks for the link. I dunno, mebbe the ATi employees who post are all individuals and tend to have their own personality traits or something weird like that. :eek2: (I don't think nVidia allows for that. ;) ) I'm really not as familar with OpenGL guy as I am with CatalystMaker, but I'll allow 'em some defensiveness as long as they keep coming around. ;)

The Official Excuse Maker for ATi

Come on, maybe you should give Paul a break huh?:rolleyes: I mean, why would someone lie about something so rediculous. Obviously, not everyone is as forth coming with information as you have been decieved to believe.

Nvidia or ATi... period.

Thank you for that unnecessary example of ATi *in the know* persons that have not always being *upfront and *forth coming. It primarily showed how it is not just so called *Nvidia* followers/cheering section that has been fooled.

Peace,

:)

digitalwanderer
08-14-03, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Malfunction
The Official Excuse Maker for ATi

Come one, maybe you should give Paul a break huh?:rolleyes: I mean, why would someone lie about something so rediculous. Obviously, not everyone is as forth coming with information as you have been decieved to believe.

Nvidia or ATi... period.

Thank you for that unnecessary example of ATi *in the know* persons that have not always being *upfront and *forth coming. It primarily showed how it is not just so called *Nvidia* followers/cheering section that has been fooled.

Peace,

:)
I don't get it. What's the flame for?

I'm having a pretty weird/rotten/long/extreme day and I've been kicking back finally for a bit chilling and right now I ain't firing on all cyclinders, and I guess I'm just entirely missing your point....but I truly don't get what you are trying to imply.

Could you spell it out really simply for me please? Because right now the insult is just sort of zinging right over me head and leaving me sort of confused. :(

PreservedSwine
08-15-03, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Malfunction
The Official Excuse Maker for ATi

Come one, maybe you should give Paul a break huh?:rolleyes: I mean, why would someone lie about something so rediculous. Obviously, not everyone is as forth coming with information as you have been decieved to believe.

Nvidia or ATi... period.

Thank you for that unnecessary example of ATi *in the know* persons that have not always being *upfront and *forth coming. It primarily showed how it is not just so called *Nvidia* followers/cheering section that has been fooled.

Peace,

:)

I'm left wondering if the link lead to something else I didn't see? wtf are you talking about????:confused:

PreservedSwine
08-15-03, 09:53 AM
One item stands out more than all the other, but maybe it's just me....

An optimization must produce the correct image

When all the hub-ub began, didn't the hardware have to produce an identical image??

What does this mean for the furture of graphics?? Will we begin to see larger and larger differences even when settings on two different peices of hardware are identical???

This could prove to be quite a turning point.......

Hanners
08-15-03, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by PreservedSwine
One item stands out more than all the other, but maybe it's just me....

When all the hub-ub began, didn't the hardware have to produce an identical image??

What does this mean for the furture of graphics?? Will we begin to see larger and larger differences even when settings on two different peices of hardware are identical???

This could prove to be quite a turning point.......

To be fair, I think using the word identical would be pushing it - It's already been shown that very often a reference rasteriser can give a different image to that of any video card, so striving to make it identical would be an almost impossible task.

I think using the word 'correct' is fine, as long as they mean correct in the eyes of the game developer and what they expect, rather than correct in the eyes of nVidia.

PreservedSwine
08-15-03, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Hanners
To be fair, I think using the word identical would be pushing it - It's already been shown that very often a reference rasteriser can give a different image to that of any video card, so striving to make it identical would be an almost impossible task.

I think using the word 'correct' is fine, as long as they mean correct in the eyes of the game developer and what they expect, rather than correct in the eyes of nVidia.

I sure hope your'e correct, it just seems to me the the word "correct image" is so arbitrary. Correct according to whom???

If I remember correctly, the 3Dmark03 fiasco was about Nvidia re-writing shader code, and producing a "similiar" image, but not an "identical" one. It seems a strange path we're headed down, with highly programmable GPU's. I suppose some misteps and making up new rules as we go should be expected. I just hope things don't get too wierd:crosseye:

digitalwanderer
08-15-03, 12:13 PM
Whatever ya do, be very wary of giving Zardon your honest feedback on his interview. :(

Paul
08-15-03, 12:14 PM
Note for Digi:

2 entries found for tact.
tact.
n

1. Acute sensitivity to what is proper and appropriate in dealing with others, including the ability to speak or act without offending.
2. Archaic. The sense of touch.

digitalwanderer
08-15-03, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Paul
Note for Digi:
I call 'em like I see 'em, and I never said the things he said I said.

No warning, just his flying off the handle. :rolleyes:

"How come everywhere I go there has always got to be some arsehole?" :lol:

Onde Pik
08-15-03, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Paul
Note for Digi:


You start a whole ordeal like this because of a perfectly reasonable reply by a guy who just happens to work at ATI. Complaining about how he should have realized the initial post was a joke. First of all you whole point is mute when looking at that link. Jeez. Second of all... what IF a person who just happens to work at ATI just get a bit tired of all the little "joking" comments? (I used the quotes because alot of ppl use a joke as an excuse to say something lame and not have to stand by it if it blows up in their face. It is so easy going "It was a joke man... relax")


And now look at the statement that Digitalwanderer gets flamed over.... a joke. And now it is ok to respond to him with flames that are 1000000000 times hotter than the one by OpenGLguy you referred to. If you want to start a big fuss about nothing, plz atleast practice what you preach.

It wouldnt surprise me to learn that you are the same "Paul" who plagues us staff ppl at the Blitzkrieg free UO shard.