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Hellbinder
08-15-03, 09:05 AM
Yes I know this is the Inquirer. But it will be interesting when more information comes out on this.

Remember i said just becuase Nvidia *shipped* 60% of the DX9 hardware does not directly equate to market share. No more than it did wen ATi shipped 100% of DX9 pats in the previous Quarters.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=11054

According to 3rd Quarter final results...

A REPORT from Mercury Research on the third quarter 2003 graphics market, indicates that ATI has gained market share at the expense of its fierce enemy, Nvidia.
The report forecasts that 48.9 million graphics chips were shipped in Q2, a figure that's down five per cent from the previous quarter but 16% up year on year.

Intel as well as ATI were winners. ATI gained 1.6% to hold 21 per cent of the total graphics chip market, Intel gained five per cent and held 32%, while Nvidia lost market share by 4.5% to 27%.

The market share gap between ATI and Nvidia is now only six points, the smallest in the last six quarters.

Mercury claims the total standalone graphics market fell nine per cent in the quarter, sequentially. Nvidia lost three per cent to hold 54% of the market, while ATI moved up by two per cent to 37%.

The whole desktop graphics market fell by seven per cent in Q2, with the desktop discrete market falling by 10%, amounting to 18 million units.

However, the notebook graphics market grew by six per cent in Q2, shipments standing at 8.8 million. And Mercury claims ATI and Intel gained share while Nvidia and Via lost share here.

For the whole portable market, ATI moved up seven per cent to hold 59%, Intel grew eight per cent to 16%, while Nvidia fell by seven per cent to 11%, and Via fell from nine per cent to six per cent.

Mercury said ATI market share is growing in the portable discrete marketplace, with the Canadian firm holding 68%, while once more Nvidia fell, from 9.5% to 19%.

Clearly Nvidia is still ahead of ATi. At least in one area. While ATis total domination of the portables is only increasing. I am not trying to say the sky is falling or anything like that. Only that I personally had said that indeed nvidia *DID* lose some market share while ATi gained a little bit.

Which is indeed overall what happened. At least according to this.

jbirney
08-15-03, 09:13 AM
Makes sense. It takes a long time to take over and make gains in the market. NV did not kill 3DFX right away. It took year or so to become the dominate. With the Xbox2 contract and gaining in Market Share ATI is on a roll. The only thing that can slow them down is a lack of a DX9 low end part to compete with the 5200.

Sazar
08-15-03, 09:17 AM
Mercury said ATI market share is growing in the portable discrete marketplace, with the Canadian firm holding 68%, while once more Nvidia fell, from 9.5% to 19%.


I am not an accountant but can someone please explain how 9.5% - 19% is a fall ?

unless it is a typo and was meant to be 19.5 -19%...

:)

cheers...

Hanners
08-15-03, 10:19 AM
The Inquirer and Mercury Research. Not exactly a match made in heaven for reliable information. :p

Interesting information however, it'll be interesting to see if this is borne out by any official announcements from the parties involved.

StealthHawk
08-15-03, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Hanners
The Inquirer and Mercury Research. Not exactly a match made in heaven for reliable information. :p

Interesting information however, it'll be interesting to see if this is borne out by any official announcements from the parties involved.

Um, what is wrong with Mercury Research?

SlyBoots
08-15-03, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Um, what is wrong with Mercury Research?

umm, let's see if I can put it laymans terms? Their numbers only affect product shipped not sold. I'll use the FX5200 as an example since some investors claimed NV was dumping to hold market share. Since the Mercury numbers don't include any buyback clauses, NV might ask ASUS to accept a 50k chip order, three months later ASUS returns 25k...the Mercury numbers only reflect the original shipment.

Also, Intel [and the others] get credit for all mobos shipped with IGP even when that is disabled/replaced with an AIB..

Back in 1954 Darrell Huff wrote a book titled 'How to lie with statistics'......call it the magic of numbers or smoke and mirrors, but that's how I view Mercury Research....JMO:)

StealthHawk
08-15-03, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by SlyBoots
umm, let's see if I can put it laymans terms? Their numbers only affect product shipped not sold. I'll use the FX5200 as an example since some investors claimed NV was dumping to hold market share. Since the Mercury numbers don't include any buyback clauses, NV might ask ASUS to accept a 50k chip order, three months later ASUS returns 25k...the Mercury numbers only reflect the original shipment.

Also, Intel [and the others] get credit for all mobos shipped with IGP even when that is disabled/replaced with an AIB..

Back in 1954 Darrell Huff wrote a book titled 'How to lie with statistics'......call it the magic of numbers or smoke and mirrors, but that's how I view Mercury Research....JMO:)

Then what the hell is the point of this post, aren't all these numbers calculated from shipped products :thinker:

ChrisRay
08-15-03, 08:06 PM
Everyone tells me how poorly Geforce FX's are doing in there areas. But Everywhere I go. Best buy, Wal Mart, EB, Have all those FX 5200's sold out and on order order. And fully loaded with ATI radeon 9000/9100

However Comp USA had a different scenereio. ATI cards seem to be doing very well. Even more oddly I noticed that Comp USA still sells the Visiontek Radeon 9500 Pro cards.

SlyBoots
08-15-03, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Then what the hell is the point of this post, aren't all these numbers calculated from shipped products :thinker:

you asked....I guess the simple answer would have been 'everything':rolleyes:

5150 Joker
08-15-03, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
Everyone tells me how poorly Geforce FX's are doing in there areas. But Everywhere I go. Best buy, Wal Mart, EB, Have all those FX 5200's sold out and on order order. And fully loaded with ATI radeon 9000/9100

However Comp USA had a different scenereio. ATI cards seem to be doing very well. Even more oddly I noticed that Comp USA still sells the Visiontek Radeon 9500 Pro cards.

Yes that falls into the desktop market which nVidia leads by around ~20%. The other sectors you don't see at walmart etc.

eagle17
08-16-03, 12:25 AM
acutally NVidia leads the 3D market INTEL leads the desktop market by quite a large margin, they surpassed ati about 5 years ago.
just about every pc sold by dell, ibm, hp/compaq, and most of the low end market use intell integrated graphics cores. That does count. just because intel figured a good way to charge more for their chipsets does not mean they get excluded.

also based on mercuries own numbers ATI is leading total market share in mobile chips...

of course this includes the ati chips in all those pda's out there too. So keep in mind how funny these numbers can be like pointed out above.

ChrisRay
08-16-03, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by 5150 Joker
Yes that falls into the desktop market which nVidia leads by around ~20%. The other sectors you don't see at walmart etc.

Actually I was just referring to how everyone says Nvidia FX 5200 cards dont sell at Comp USAs, best Buys ect

When I think it has more to do with stock ect.

StealthHawk
08-16-03, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by SlyBoots
you asked....I guess the simple answer would have been 'everything':rolleyes:

I am referring directly to a sentiment made by the creator of this threadRemember i said just becuase Nvidia *shipped* 60% of the DX9 hardware does not directly equate to market share. No more than it did wen ATi shipped 100% of DX9 pats in the previous Quarters.

But all market share numbers(conducted by Mercury Research anyway) are calculated with shipped products, not sold products.

So my question is then, how does this new report invalidate the older report? The market share is being counted the same exact way, is it not? ie, with shipped products.

edit: THIS IS THE SAME REPORT THAT WAS RELEASED OVER TWO WEEKS AGO!!!!!!!!!!!
Q2 results from Mercury Research (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20030801102103.html)

:banghead:

digitalwanderer
08-16-03, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
The market share is being counted the same exact way, is it not? ie, with shipped products.

edit: THIS IS THE SAME REPORT THAT WAS RELEASED OVER TWO WEEKS AGO!!!!!!!!!!!
Q2 results from Mercury Research (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20030801102103.html)

:banghead:
It is being counted the same way, it is the same report, and it's still pretty much just useful for wiping me backside with.

The way MR set up the report was biased, period. The report implies that every shipped unit is a sold unit, which with nVidia's buy-back-option-clause-thingy is pretty silly.

I'd like to see a report of actual units SOLD myself... ;)

Skuzzy
08-16-03, 09:10 AM
Ahh poop on market analysis. Just show me the money!

The financial reports are the only tangible reports you can use to determine how well a company is doing. Marketshare is good PR, but does not neccessarily translate into profit, given there is no concise way to measure what a company actually sold.

SlyBoots
08-16-03, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
It is being counted the same way, it is the same report, and it's still pretty much just useful for wiping me backside with.

The way MR set up the report was biased, period. The report implies that every shipped unit is a sold unit, which with nVidia's buy-back-option-clause-thingy is pretty silly.

I'd like to see a report of actual units SOLD myself... ;)

yep, that's where the margins come in...ATI up, NV down;)

bkswaney
08-16-03, 04:01 PM
Well, I for one hope that turns around for Nvidia.
They r a US company and the way things r going in the US
we need them to do better. :)

digitalwanderer
08-16-03, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by bkswaney
Well, I for one hope that turns around for Nvidia.
They r a US company and the way things r going in the US
we need them to do better. :)
Doesn't ATi employ a few people in the USA them own selves?

StealthHawk
08-16-03, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Ahh poop on market analysis. Just show me the money!

The financial reports are the only tangible reports you can use to determine how well a company is doing. Marketshare is good PR, but does not neccessarily translate into profit, given there is no concise way to measure what a company actually sold.

But there are tricks to make it looks like you're showing a bigger profit than you are too :(

5150 Joker
08-16-03, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by bkswaney
Well, I for one hope that turns around for Nvidia.
They r a US company and the way things r going in the US
we need them to do better. :)

Both companies employ people from the U.S. so it's a null point. nVidia is going nowhere, they're still at the top and ATi is still playing catch up so I doubt we as consumers have anything to worry about. Today R3xx is on top, tomorrow nV40 may shock us all and we'll all be nVidia's bitches and forget all this cheating/deception ever happened.

bkswaney
08-16-03, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by 5150 Joker
Both companies employ people from the U.S. so it's a null point. nVidia is going nowhere, they're still at the top and ATi is still playing catch up so I doubt we as consumers have anything to worry about. Today R3xx is on top, tomorrow nV40 may shock us all and we'll all be nVidia's bitches and forget all this cheating/deception ever happened.


Don't forget ATI's driver are optamized to. :)

5150 Joker
08-17-03, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by bkswaney
Don't forget ATI's driver are optamized to. :)

From all the evidence present, they do not cheat in any game/benchmark right now. nVidia on the other hand...

StealthHawk
08-17-03, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by 5150 Joker
From all the evidence present, they do not cheat in any game/benchmark right now. nVidia on the other hand...

*cough* 3dmark2001 *cough*

Sure it's old, but dammit, the optimizations are still there.

5150 Joker
08-17-03, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
*cough* 3dmark2001 *cough*

Sure it's old, but dammit, the optimizations are still there.

Long as it's not a cheat that degrades IQ I'm alright with it.

Skuzzy
08-17-03, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
But there are tricks to make it looks like you're showing a bigger profit than you are too :(

Quite right Stealth. Enron proved that beyond a resonable doubt.

Ahhhhh,..poop on it! Just buy what you like and don't worry about it. ATI and NVidia should be around tomorrow.