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Mark_fox
08-18-03, 06:59 AM
I just started wondering over the last few weeks about the whole review business...I wanted to get a FX5900 card and so I thought I'll check out few reviews to decide which one to buy...what hit me is that almost all reviews slap on few 3dmark tests, ut2003 test and maybe quake3 and call it a day...ok...well...I wasn't happy about it but at the time there wasn't many reviews out and maybe only 1 or 2 had some different test in it but none of them had a wide variety of tests at all...and most of them were using 44.03 drivers which let's face it - not a lot of ppl I know use...

Bottom line is - I wanted more from the reviews and I didn't get it (or couldn't find it). I'm dissapointed and I just wanted to know if anybody here feels same or similar way. If you do, let us know what would you like a review of FX5900 (or any other card) to contain . Thanks a lot, who knows, maybe someone will listen :) ;)

zero.TA
08-18-03, 08:29 AM
They might do benchmark testing against Quake III, etc, but I would like them to test the card in its entirity, especially multi monitor set ups.

I am having enormous problems trying to run games under a dual monitor setup even though they advertise it as a dual capability.

Giving an answer of just disabling 1 monitor is not the reason I spend sill money on cards for.

At least Radeon states what its card can do and actually delivers.

Malfunction
08-18-03, 09:04 AM
I would have to agree with zero.TA on that one. Most reviews concentrate on videocard performance (ie. Quake III *blahh, UT2K3 *blah, 3DMark *blah) and not the features that the card claims to operate with successfully.

Rating the features on some sort of *Ease of Use/Setup scale would be pretty killer. Some sites are too freaking lengthy on the "How this GPU started as a ... blah blah blah." I would rather see a successfull setup and use of features incorporated instead of hearing how one IHV had a brain fart and came up with their new GPU design as a solution.

Also benching with one common Open GL game and D3D game, then with entirely different games that have been benched with already ya know? Add some diversity. It is tiresome to see review after review of the same games being benched with different system specs is all. That's cool to a point but, gimmie a break. Some people actually play *other than the top 10 games currently.

That's my $.02...

Peace,

:)

The Baron
08-18-03, 09:19 AM
Also benching with one common Open GL game and D3D game, then with entirely different games that have been benched with already ya know? Add some diversity. It is tiresome to see review after review of the same games being benched with different system specs is all. That's cool to a point but, gimmie a break. Some people actually play *other than the top 10 games currently.
There are good reasons that you primarily see FPS games benchmarked. How, for example, do you benchmark Natural Selection? Or NWN? It's completely impossible for a lot of games, or those other games are too CPU-dependent to be able to accurately measure the effect of the GPU upon performance.

What we NEED is an open-source benchmark similar to 3DMark03...

sebazve
08-18-03, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
There are good reasons that you primarily see FPS games benchmarked. How, for example, do you benchmark Natural Selection? Or NWN? It's completely impossible for a lot of games, or those other games are too CPU-dependent to be able to accurately measure the effect of the GPU upon performance.

What we NEED is an open-source benchmark similar to 3DMark03...

well at least to know how good the drivers and the card behave on those games not just the most popular FPS, we all know that they spend lots of time just to improved a couple of first person shooter.

I would like too see for example:

benchs of Flight sims, RPGs, etc. Not always Quake 3 and UT2k3

And also to spend lots of time on IQ quality test nowadays this is a must ...who gives a **** if you get 300 FPS in Quake with out AA or AF to the max or any other game. In my opinion for high end cards you should forget to include bench without AA or AF.


;)

Unit01
08-18-03, 01:38 PM
to mark_fox
www.firingsquad.com

Mark_fox
08-18-03, 01:41 PM
yes, that is a good site for more detailed reviews and the latest nvnews review was good too

The Baron
08-18-03, 02:27 PM
You can't bench RPGs. Sorry, but you can't. There's no benchmarking or demo recording capabilities (unless you do the FRAPS-for-ten-minutes-in-the-same-area-using-the-same-general-tactics approach, which is about as scientific as throwing a monkey at a wall with numbers randomly marked on it. now, if you were to let bots/AI go at each other for 10 minutes, that's another story. but then you hit CPU barriers. anyway, I digress.).

If the devs of Morrowind wanted to throw in a benchmarking mode, I would be using it instantly. But, they don't. Same with NWN, same with lots of things.

Gotta hand it to Carmack for making engines where benchmarking is actually considered and is not an afterthought.

FredGSanford
08-18-03, 04:06 PM
I might be wrong but I thought there was a benchmark for Dungeon Siege.... It's been a while though, can't remember... Damn Blasted Brain ;)

I would Like to see a review on the Flickering, Buzzing and poor IQ many of us 5900U users have :D

Rytr
08-18-03, 04:11 PM
I agree its almost impossible to benchmark a RPG but we are trying.

NWN has been a bust so far but using MikeC's senerio in MW can give you somewhat of an idea how this game will bench with a particular card. It is difficult and definitely not scientific, but what bench is?

There are just too many extra variables in a RPG. But we will try, so keep the suggestions coming! ;)

Nutty
08-18-03, 04:32 PM
What we NEED is an open-source benchmark similar to 3DMark03...

But then the IHV's will just start optimizing for it, if it was used by alot of sites.. :)

The Baron
08-18-03, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Nutty
But then the IHV's will just start optimizing for it, if it was used by alot of sites.. :)
So? Change three lines of code, defeat the optimizations.

The Baron
08-18-03, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by FredGSanford
I might be wrong but I thought there was a benchmark for Dungeon Siege.... It's been a while though, can't remember... Damn Blasted Brain ;)

I would Like to see a review on the Flickering, Buzzing and poor IQ many of us 5900U users have :D
DS is CPU bound, IIRC.

Skuzzy
08-18-03, 04:46 PM
Actually Baron, I disagree about the open source/public benchmarks. They are why we suddenly find ourselves not being able to get any consistent anymore and realize which cards are actually better/worse than others.

A lot of subjective stuff in most reviews these days.

I have a plan and am actively working to get it launched. I like this site so much that I may use it for the first formal announcement, unless MikeC says no.

The Baron
08-18-03, 04:48 PM
Actually Baron, I disagree about the open source/public benchmarks. They are why we suddenly find ourselves not being able to get any consistent anymore and realize which cards are actually better/worse than others.
People said the same thing about security holes in open software. Look at Microsoft. ;)

Malfunction
08-18-03, 04:58 PM
Ok, for D3D... what about Moto GP2? How you could bench you ask? After you race a track in either: Quick Race or Career Mode

it allows you to save a recording of the race for replay. Now what is cool about it, is the fact that it is much like the replay saves in Gran Turismo I & II for the PS1 & 2.

Now, the files are saved in this directory: C:\Program Files\MotoGP2\save\Replay Malfunction, Catalunya, 18 Aug

Within that folder are 2 files:

buffer
buffer_

The folder/files are all that you would need to retain to reproduce a replay of your game for benchmarking. Could use Fraps to record the FPS. There is no way it could be optimized because it could always change depending on which of the 20 riders you decide to veiw only.

This game is majorly kickass and visually stunning which could be worth looking into for benching D3D.

I will try to think of some others. :)

Peace,

:D

Skuzzy
08-18-03, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
People said the same thing about security holes in open software. Look at Microsoft. ;)

Just saying there is another way Baron. There really is. Give me a little more time. Stuff like this doesn't happen overnight.

The Baron
08-18-03, 05:42 PM
Jeez. I'm curious.

Might be the same thing that occurred to me and that I emailed Unwinder about last night.

ricercar
08-18-03, 05:48 PM
Review includes:

Include ample pics so we-the-ignorant are finally told what our extra monies are buying.
- Compare a 5900 with no AA to a 5900 with various AA settings
- Compare a 5900 with no AF to a 5900 with various AF settings

Include configuration details for multiple monitors:
- relate to motion video playback settings (e.g. can you move a movie between displays and not have the window go blank?)

- relate to VIVO settings (e.g. can you run video input with multiple displays active?

Include ease-of-installation for all OS for which NVIDIA provides installer/drivers
- Win9x
- XP
- 2K
- Linux - especially using multiple displays in X windows

Include temperature ratings
- will this video card heat raise the ambient temperature of my case?
- if so, after how much gaming?

Include fan noise comparisons made by someone competent (e.g. who has real-world experience measuring sound pressure level with a dB meter), not someone who just says "seems louder to me" ratings.

- 2D mode fan noise decibels @ 1 meter, A and C weighting
- 3D mode fan noise decibels @ 1 meter, A and C weighting

Compare 5900 to a spectrum of NVIDIA GPUs, not just ATI Radeons.
- GeForce NV35 vs Quadro NV35
- GeForce3 vs GeForce 4 vs GeForce FX 5800 vx FX 5900
- GeForce 5x00 Ultra vs 5x00 non-ulktra

Nebuchadnezzar
08-18-03, 06:42 PM
I want p0rn in reviews... :hmm: :afro:

Malfunction
08-19-03, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Malfunction
Ok, for D3D... what about Moto GP2? How you could bench you ask? After you race a track in either: Quick Race or Career Mode

it allows you to save a recording of the race for replay. Now what is cool about it, is the fact that it is much like the replay saves in Gran Turismo I & II for the PS1 & 2.

Now, the files are saved in this directory: C:\Program Files\MotoGP2\save\Replay Malfunction, Catalunya, 18 Aug

Within that folder are 2 files:

buffer
buffer_

The folder/files are all that you would need to retain to reproduce a replay of your game for benchmarking. Could use Fraps to record the FPS. There is no way it could be optimized because it could always change depending on which of the 20 riders you decide to veiw only.

This game is majorly kickass and visually stunning which could be worth looking into for benching D3D.

I will try to think of some others. :)

Peace,

:D

Don't mean to quote myself but this is what I am talking about:

http://www.battlefieldgrunts.net/graphics/cool.gif

This was an AVI that I made in a small little GIF. :D Although the ingame effects are truelly outstanding, you must check out if you haven't... the demo just doesn't do the game justice.

Peace,

:cool:

MikeC
08-19-03, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Malfunction
This was an AVI that I made in a small little GIF.

Woah, that kicks ass!

The Baron
08-19-03, 07:50 PM
I've been wondering about the whole video thing for reviews. Here's what I've figured out. Uncompressed is too big, but, it is the only way to give completely accurate IQ. I looked around for free lossless (or nearly lossless) video compression formats and couldn't find any current ones (found one that had updates stopped in 2001, but I couldn't find a place to download the codec).

DivX might be the best all-around. Although it loses significant amounts of IQ, it's still generally accurate enough to be useful. What I'm investigating now is MJPEG. Never used it, not familiar with it in the least, but meh, it might be good.

gokickrocks
08-19-03, 09:03 PM
http://www.alparysoft.com/prod/lossless-video-codec.phtml

use fraps and then compress using this lossless video codec (its free)

The Baron
08-19-03, 09:04 PM
Hmmm... Huffy was the one I was looking at before, couldn't find any current info about it. I'll check this out. Thanks.