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Zelda_fan
03-24-12, 02:10 AM
There's a reason most businesses don't use apple. In fact you're far more likely to find linux than apple in *any* business.

That is rapidly changing. I have a friend who works at Vanity Fair and was given both a company iphone and ipad within the last year. I see countless other business executives with the same thing. The iPhone is replacing the blackberry, and the iPad is replacing the notebook.

There is a reason Apple is sitting on nearly 90B worth of cash and has the highest market capitalization of any company in the world. 15 years ago the sucked. Now they are penetrating nearly every aspect of the market.

six_storm
03-24-12, 10:36 AM
No, it wouldn't. In the typical enterprise environment, you're going to have deals with vendors like dell or hp where you order say 50 desktop systems (which in the future will probably include windows 8 OEM) and you'll spend around say $375 per system for an i3 processor, 4GB of ram, 250GB HDD and includes a 20" monitor.

You'll then have a volume license for Windows 7 Enterprise which costs you $60-80 per desktop (depending on any existing deals you have) and the first thing you'll do with the new computers is blow out the included OS and do an online unattended install of your volume licensed copy with an image that already includes all of your necessary applications and updates pre-installed.

And then on top of that, when you need upgrades, you can work with any vendor of your choosing.

With apple you are just stuck with whatever apple gives you, you'll pay two to three times as much per machine, and installing your applications is a manual process driving the costs even higher. There's a reason most businesses don't use apple. In fact you're far more likely to find linux than apple in *any* business.

In fact, my school used to include apple, but they stopped because they're expensive and nobody has any need for them. However in our business department linux is very popular because of apache as well as many advanced networking features not found in any other OS, except Cisco's IOS (not to be confused with apple's iOS) and Junipers JunOS, both of which only run on specialized hardware.

As much as I love my Apple products, I will agree that they are not business ready.

Three months ago, we had maybe 1 call or issue about a Mac setup. Today? It's phenomenal how many people are buying Macs and asking us how to do this and that. Heck I had to teach a simple class on them to my co-workers so they know what each mail client supports, what's the best method, etc.

Going back to my original statement, Office applications for the Mac simply suck. Microsoft Office is the best office suite and I doubt anybody will every come close to beating them. However, when they made Office 2008 and 2011, they really screwed Mac users by giving them HORRIBLE software. Outlook is the worst out of any of them. Instead of making PST files like the Windows version, it creates a database to hold your email locally. And the more and more emails you put in that DB, the slower your Outlook runs. It's absolute GARBAGE.

You know what I told my company that we should only support? If any client wants Office on their Mac, they need to purchase Parallels/Fusion, install Windows 7 and then Office 2010. No lie. It's really sad that Microsoft can make such a horrible product. Heck, Office 2010 inside of a WinXP/Win7 VM runs lighter and faster than the native Office 2011 apps! WTF?

Apple Mail is alright but there are certain situations where it won't work. Have Exchange 03? You have to use POP/IMAP. You have to have Exchange 2007 and up to setup a true Exchange account. That only takes care of mail. What about Calendar and Contacts? Some people don't like having three separate programs open (Mail, iCal and Address Book).

All of this is to say that having an Apple environment is just not feasible right now. However, people are buying them left and right all of a sudden around Nashville and the TN area. I know that iPhones are the most popular phones in our area and cause the least issues compared to other smartphones, but that's a different story.

Businesses will still continue to buy the $200 eMachine ghetto PCs all day long and my company will continue to support them, Windows 8 and all. :headexplode:

FastRedPonyCar
04-03-12, 03:22 PM
The point is, when someone buys a computer set up with Windows 8, after using the same UI/UX for 17+ odd years, and finding everything changed around (and not for the better), there is going to be some bad mojo coming from the non-geek users.

Yep. I'm already expecting a lot of phone calls for me to install windows 7 on their new machines after they see how terrible W8 is.


Also, notice that all apps you install get placed on the Start Screen (legacy apps are ugly as hell). On a normal install, I have roughly 200 games alone. Many of those install multiple icons. That alone is going to be a major hassle. No more hierarchical or nested folders in Metro. That is going to be one major cluster f*ck to deal with.

And this right here is my main issue with metro. It gets HILARIOUSLY cluttered once you start actually installing stuff.

FastRedPonyCar
04-03-12, 03:24 PM
That is rapidly changing. I have a friend who works at Vanity Fair and was given both a company iphone and ipad within the last year. I see countless other business executives with the same thing. The iPhone is replacing the blackberry, and the iPad is replacing the notebook.


my wife's company is the same way. They all got iphone 4's for christmas and are working with developers to find alternative software solutions that will run on OSX and offer seamless integration with their iphones and ipads they take with them out of the office.

Rakeesh
04-04-12, 04:53 AM
Businesses will still continue to buy the $200 eMachine ghetto PCs all day long and my company will continue to support them, Windows 8 and all. :headexplode:

Those "ghetto" $200 PC's aren't any worse than anything from apple. In fact in many/most cases they are better than a $600 mac. The idea that apple hardware is superior is a myth. Hands down, no sugar coating it. All you are paying for is the fact that it has the word "Apple" written on it.

This guy isn't an idiot. He is the author of the most accurate and fully functional SNES emulator to ever exist (in fact it literally plays every single game that exists to perfection.) He ports his emulator to Linux and Mac, and here's his experience with mac:

http://byuu.org/articles/apple

(or at least he used to port it to mac)

Read the whole thing. It's really funny just how cheap apple hardware is. It's also a really neat blog if you want to find out how hardware reverse engineering is done.

Also the idea that macs crash less and are more secure is an even bigger myth, in fact of the three major OSes, it is the worst in both departments by far, and worse is apple is by far the slowest at responding to zero day vulnerabilities (apple regularly will wait up to two months before patching exploits - that is an eternity for mission critical systems, which is yet another reason they'll never run on OSX.)

Anyways businesses don't buy $200 ghetto PC's just because they're cheap.

Yaboze
04-04-12, 10:59 AM
That page was funny, but he bought a Mac mini, which even Apple fans call a piece of crap.

The HD and RAM failed, both not made by Apple. It's a closed system, if you expect to open and do all kinds of hax, you're going to be disappointed.

The iMac's and Macbooks are made very well, as are the iPhones and iPads.

nekrosoft13
04-04-12, 01:10 PM
Also the idea that macs crash less and are more secure is an even bigger myth, in fact of the three major OSes, it is the worst in both departments by far, and worse is apple is by far the slowest at responding to zero day vulnerabilities (apple regularly will wait up to two months before patching exploits - that is an eternity for mission critical systems, which is yet another reason they'll never run on OSX.)

Anyways businesses don't buy $200 ghetto PC's just because they're cheap.

very true, OSX is the least secure system, in every hacking competition, macs get hacked first. they give the illusion of being secure because of tiny market share, meaning little news stories out there and because of tiny market share, hackers etc.. concentrate on the bigger piece of pie (windows).

Rakeesh
04-05-12, 12:41 AM
The HD and RAM failed, both not made by Apple.

Apple doesn't actually make 99% of the components you find in them (in fact I'd be surprised if apple owns any fabrication plants at all, so that figure is probably closer to 100%.) Foxconn makes most of the case materials, and the components such as hard drives, processors, memory, etc are all made by companies such as samsung, hitachi, and intel just to name a few.

Apple does not make memory, and apple does not make hard drives. It may in some cases have the name apple written on the component itself, but apple does not make it. Hell, apple doesn't even assemble their own computers.

In fact all of the above can be said about HP and Dell as well (with the exception of custom built Dell PC's, which ARE assembled in the US at various locations that dell owns.) HP and Dell are both huge customers of Foxconn for example.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_apple_factory

Apple is really just another OEM, only they use their own in-house less secure, less compatible, and less stable OS.

(EDIT: source here (http://www.infoworld.com/t/hardware/apple-losing-its-quality-magic-049?page=0,1) and ironically ASUS and Lenovo, of all companies, are reported to produce superior hardware to apple, source here (http://hothardware.com/News/ASUS-More-Reliable-Than-Apple-But-Lenovo-Bests-Them-All-/), so next time an apple fanboy talks up their "great quality" hardware, remind them that the chinese company Lenovo does a better job, and their computers are a LOT cheaper)

Really all you're paying for is the name apple written on it.

Why am I telling you all of this? Consumers are stupid and will buy the shiny apple products because it's cool and hip to do so. But the idea that businesses would EVER switch to anything apple due to windows 8 having a crappy UI is just a big crock of....you know. Trust me, if it came down to it, linux would by far come next in line.

The iMac's and Macbooks are made very well, as are the iPhones and iPads.

Nope, all of the above have huge QA issues compared to the competition.

http://www.infoworld.com/t/hardware/apple-losing-its-quality-magic-049?page=0,0

Redeemed
04-08-12, 04:03 PM
Interesting info Rakeesh, thank you. :)

As to Windows 8, I've been giving this some more thought.

I've worked retail in various positions for the past, well, almost 7 years. And to be honest, as much as we may not like it being power users I think Windows 8 just may do very well. Follow me here-

The average computer user, though far more capable now then prior years, still prefers something that is simple. And what can be more simple than touch based devices? They also prefer something that is sleek in appearances. What is more sleek, tidy, and uncluttered than a touch-based device?

Honestly I think Windows 8 is an indication of where the market is going. No, desktops are not going anywhere. They are, however, changing. Significantly.

Take a look, for example, at the sigs of the members of this forum (and likely any hardware forum). Many are still rocking LGA775 based computers, even more are rocking LGA 1155/1156/LGA1366 or Quad and Six-Core AMD based systems (AM3/AM3+), but fewer are rocking absolutely bleeding-edge components. As much as I'd love to do a major over haul to my system, I'd likely see very little real-world benefit. My CPU, though now 3 years old, is still excessive for my usage. 16GB of RAM is beyond over kill. My 5870 can play absolutely every game out there, most of them with all in-game options maxed (@ 1920x1200, worst case scenerio is no AA though with most titles I can have some level of AA). All of these parts are now comparable to more mainstream components. A single 7870 outpaces my 5870, higher end Core i5's can compete with my stock 920 and if over clocked, surpass my 920. Really the only upgrade that would yield noticeable improvements would be to my storage sub-systems: newer and larger SSD(s), larger and faster HDDs for all my storage needs. Anything else would yield improvements but nothing that'd I'd be wowed by.

My point? My system is far from high-end anymore. If anything it is slipping more towards main-stream. Yet it is still quite powerful and capable. As I type this up I have about 12 tabs open in FF, WMP is minimized playing a playlist, I've got Steam running in the background as well as Norton 360- and I can switch between applications or tabs in a heart beat. There is zero delay in anything I want to do. My only complaint with my computer? The very few times I work with HD video I'd like it to create my videos quicker. I do that so seldom though that I'm not worried about it.

Moving onto my point- individual components are becoming so powerful and cheap, I believe the desktop market will become saturated with all-in-one PCs. The touchscreen models from Dell, HP, ASUS and the likes will sell very well once Windows 8 comes out.

Think about it- when you need the advantages of a keyboard and mouse you can use them with an all in one PC. For simple desktop navigation Metro on a touch-screen all in one PC will be a hit. And most touch screen all in ones pack some pretty potent hardware- quad core processors, dedicated graphics cards, HD displays, 8GB of RAM or greater, larger HDD (1TB or greater) and I could even see manufacturers offering SSDs with them. For the average joe such a computer is more than fast enough to meet their needs, it takes up less space, looks neater.

Honestly, I think the desktop market will move towards the All-in-ones. Having a tower with separate monitor will become less common. More of a niche market. Most PC gamers aren't too worried with visual quality anymore. The low-end and mainstream GPUs in all-in-one PCs will play every game out at decreased visuals compared to higher-end systems.

For us power users? Who knows- maybe Windows 8 Business/Pro and Ultimate will offer the tradition start button and start menu. Or maybe we'll be forced to use hacks. Either way, I think we all just need to swallow the truth that desktop-computing is going to be taken over by touch-based applications and devices. A lot of graphics artists use Wacom tablets or the likes for their drawings, and in programs like Adobe Photoshop or Premier or whatever similar program use of the mouse and keyboard is unhindered by metro.

My personal opinion of 8 remains the same- Windows 7 will more than likely remain my main OS unless I can easily disable metro (either through built-in methods in Windows 8 or via very simple hacks) and use a tradition start button and menu. I will, however, have a separate Windows 8 install on its own SSD (likely my current 30GB once I get a new and larger SSD).

Rakeesh
04-08-12, 04:54 PM
lol at the Apple hate in here...

Show me one thing that isn't factual about what I sad.

Redeemed
04-08-12, 04:59 PM
Show me one thing that isn't factual about what I sad.

:D

Redeemed
04-08-12, 05:16 PM
Slawter! You're so mellow! :lol:

When is the last time you partook in a healthy debate? Might do you some good, instead of bottling it all up. Be careful holding it all in like that, you may just pop some day.

:lol: :D

Redeemed
04-08-12, 05:23 PM
:lol:

Dag-blast you and your irrefutable logic!

:lol: :p

six_storm
04-08-12, 10:51 PM
lol at the Apple hate in here...

Yeah, it's quite silly.

Back on the Windows discussion, business is all about the $$$$. If they can "get by" with $200 ghetto eMachines instead of spending a little more and getting something better with a warranty, they will do it. Trust me, I see it every day. I pretty much get told "Whatever the cheapest option is, that's what I want". Boils my blood, the stupidity of my clients, especially when they skip out on warranties or don't upgrade when the warranty goes out. :headexplode:

I haven't turned on my Windows 8 VM since the week the consumer preview came out. Probably won't touch it again until the final release and I need to upgrade to it at work.

Rakeesh
04-11-12, 06:09 PM
Apple knows how to sell a product but if you think that's all they are, then you're wrong. Apple is the motor behind the IT/Entertainment industry.

How so?

Classhole
04-12-12, 09:28 AM
http://picaphobia.com/images/3633.jpg

Thats not necessarily true.

I fix iMacs and MacPros on occasion, and they are not that difficult to get apart and back together with a little bit of patience and simple research. And finding reasonably priced parts are not that hard either.
And if the system is under warrany, Apples support is second to none.

As far as Macs being top of the line and gorgeous, I would have to agree with you on that :)

Yes, they are a bit pricier, but you get what you pay for in most cases. No one builds a system as well designed as Apple. Not at least in what I have found in the Wintel market. Their consumer multimedia software is also leaps ahead of most anything in the Windows market also. And their ecosystem is also one of the best when it comes to devices (phones, tablets, TV, movie streaming, music, etc). Those are just a few of the many things that they show an equal or better advantage over Wintel.
I run both systems, so I am not a fanboy by any means. I run Wintel for gaming and because I primarily support them in the field. But I wouldn't be caught dead buying a system from a Windows-based OEM, due to the shoddy workmanship they put into them typically (excluding laptops of course, which would be almost impossible to build.) I build my own Wintel boxes, and have done so since my last OEM box in '98. Nothing has come out since that really impresses me.

But to each their own :)

Rakeesh
04-13-12, 05:11 AM
Yes, they are a bit pricier, but you get what you pay for in most cases. No one builds a system as well designed as Apple.

That's simply not true. I posted the research a page or so back, it has been found that Asus and Lenovo on average produce superior hardware to Apple. And when you look back at it, it is true. There have been countless design flaws with macbooks and imacs having everything from overheating problems due to faulty cooling designs to batches of bad hard drives (which is natural because apple does use the cheapest hard drives and memory that money can buy)

Worse is when they do have obvious design flaws, apple doesn't acknowledge them, and in fact even has a history of deleting posts on their forums when people complain about these problems.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/12/apple-deleting-mentions-of-consumer-reports-iphone-4-piece-on-f/

Not just on the iphone either, they do it for all of their products.

General Lee
04-14-12, 07:20 AM
I'm gonna start my own hardware/software company. I already have a name, which I will not reveal because someone else would snap it up before I can trademark or copyright it or whatever.

I will say this, the world will be blown away by the fact that a redneck came up with this...all except for the name, of course.

;)

Rakeesh
04-14-12, 10:20 PM
To name a few big examples:

-iPod changed the market for mobile music players. Everyone else followed.

Apple followed everybody else. In fact iphone is probably one of the least featured portable music player, always has been. Hell they don't even support FLAC.

-iTunes changed the way customers buy music. Started the digital music distribution era in a big way. Expanded to other categories than just music. Everyone else can't keep up.

No they didn't start it. The only thing that I think apple really did was strong arm the RIAA to allow DRM free music. THAT I will give apple credit for.

-iPhone made the smartphones smart and revolutionized touch interfaces completely. Everyone else copied it.
-App Store, nothing else to add...
-iPad kick-started the tablet era after countless failed tries by others with bad products. Everyone else tries to keep up.

Anyways how is any of this IT?

-high quality notebooks. By now, as you mention, others like HP, Dell and Lenovo are doing the same, thanks to Apple. Before, PC notebooks were cheaply made except for some high end products like Voodoo PC for example.

How exactly did apple influence that? I've owned many decent laptops since back in 1999. I have a dell inspiron from 2001 that still works fine.

And apple doesn't exactly make good laptops, a huge number of the ones they've made have anything from overheating problems due to bad HSF design, to faulty motherboards due to cheap caps.

You never hear about it on the apple forums because apple always deletes those posts.

-Apple forced Intel to come up with usable ultra-low-power mobile CPUs and later made SSDs the default option for their MacBook Airs, which everyone is now trying to catch up to with Intel's Ultrabooks.

Intel was doing that long before Apple went x86. The intel Core architecture was based upon the Pentium M, because the Pentium 4 was just garbage. AMD was kicking intels ass around that period because intel stupidly optimized their processors to have the most megahertz rather than the most speed, and they reached a brick wall with their crappy netburst architecture due to heat issues.

-Apple is forcing Intel to come up with faster integrated GPUs.

Actually AMD is doing that. AMD is currently killing intel in the mobile space, and intel wants that market back. In the embedded space, nVidia is killing intel right now.

As a matter of fact, Intel is currently working on GPU/CPU SoC's, and Apple will never be a customer for that (they prefer ARM SoC's for that application.)

six_storm
04-15-12, 10:54 AM
Apple followed everybody else. In fact iphone is probably one of the least featured portable music player, always has been. Hell they don't even support FLAC.

I disagree. Plus, I'm sure EVERYONE has their entire music library in FLAC. :rolleyes:

No they didn't start it. The only thing that I think apple really did was strong arm the RIAA to allow DRM free music. THAT I will give apple credit for.

I can't say much about this, but then again, I don't buy music from iTunes. I usually buy from Amazon since it's DRM free and usually cheaper when purchasing whole albums.

How exactly did apple influence that? I've owned many decent laptops since back in 1999. I have a dell inspiron from 2001 that still works fine.

slaWter did say "high end laptops", not just "laptops". After owning many PC laptops myself and working on the best of the best for many clients ($2K+ builds), Dell and other OEMs still cannot make a quality product like Apple. My MBP from 2010 still beats what Dell offers today in design and quality IMO. Notice I didn't say "OMG it's FASTER!". The hardware comparison debate is another discussion for another thread ;)

And apple doesn't exactly make good laptops, a huge number of the ones they've made have anything from overheating problems due to bad HSF design, to faulty motherboards due to cheap caps.

You never hear about it on the apple forums because apple always deletes those posts.

IMO Apple makes the best laptops in the world when you look at design and quality. Dell makes some high end laptops that are "ok". You may find that there are some lemons floating around here and there but I'm not saying that Apple is perfect by any means. My MBP gets warm when I have a ton of things going on at the same time, but then again, so does any other laptop.

Have you ever owned and/or used a Macbook Pro in the past 2-3 years? If so, then I respect your opinion and we can move on buddy. :) If not, I'm sorry but I don't think you can get a fair opinion.

Redeemed
04-15-12, 11:06 AM
Not sure why I'm chiming in. Maybe I'm just that bored. :lol:

First of all the last Apple device I owned was an APPLE IIe back in the day. :lol: Not gonna' claim to have first hand knowledge.

However, working for the GeekSquad we do the bulk of the repair work in my area. We do have some mom and pop repair shops but we see a far greater volume of repairs. Granted most of those are Windows based units ranging from old Windows 98 Pentium III based rigs (retrieving data off them for the client, we don't repair units that old due to scarcity in parts) up to bleeding edge custom builds. This includes Apples as well.

Going off of my experience with the Apple computers we get in for repair, and the ones we have on our sales floor- my opinion is that you arguably get what you pay for. I don't know about the build quality of the PCBs used, the capacitors, etc. Yes the Macs due cost a lot more than an entry level Windows based PC. Compare the hardware though and the difference, it seems, is understandable. By hardware I mean compare the CPU, the amount of RAM, the speed of the RAM, the HDD size and specs, the video card specs, the quality of the display- furthermore and much to my surprise, iMacs aren't too terribly difficult to work on. In fact, I'd have to say the iMac is much easier to dissassemble for repair than most Windows based all-in-ones.

I have no real preference regarding Windows or MacOS. Honestly, if my entire game library could work in MacOS without a performance penalty or a penalty of any kind, I'd not have any bones about going MacOS. I'll never buy a Mac just because the price is absurd. My computer as is can stand toe to toe with almost any Mac you'd find in a big box retailer. I'd just go with a hackintosh.

Infact, if MS doesn't do something to make windows 8 easier to navigate with a keyboard and mouse, I may just migrate over to MacOS. Keeping Windows 7 so as to be able to still enjoy windows-only games.

mojoman0
04-15-12, 02:14 PM
I put osx on a vm a few months ago before an interview with apple. I didn't want to admit that I'd never really used a recent version of the mac os haha. I was really surprised it has a built in scripting tool. Where the hell is this in windows??? I still don't know the easiest way to make a simple windows program/script. Do you still have to make a ghetto batch file?

The one thing I don't think I would ever get over in osx tho is that you still have to quit apps from the pulldown bar. They really never gave in to the whole windows notion..understandable but I hate their implementation

Redeemed
04-15-12, 02:33 PM
I also don't get that whole quitting apps thing either. Doesn't make a lot of sense IMO. I think Command + Q will quit the app though.

six_storm
04-15-12, 03:51 PM
I also don't get that whole quitting apps thing either. Doesn't make a lot of sense IMO. I think Command + Q will quit the app though.

Apps stay open so that they "relaunch" faster the next time you use it. But yes, Command+Q does the trick.

Cylphid
04-15-12, 04:39 PM
Not sure why I'm chiming in. Maybe I'm just that bored. :lol:

First of all the last Apple device I owned was an APPLE IIe back in the day. :lol: Not gonna' claim to have first hand knowledge.



I still have an emac or imac or one of those macs in the corner of my office. It's from 1782 or something like that. :lol:

Apple has come a long, long way, but the majority of what I do requires windows and my days of juggling multiple OSes are over for now, so I use windows.....:(

That said, can we get back to trashing windows 8 now? :lol: