The OGL Bug Flame Thread.

[Deathlike2]

ChrisRay.. consider this..

NVidia has MSAA in the GF3 and later...

I'm not exactly sure which cards have MSAA applied to their standard AA modes (but I presume the FX series has it done)

NVidia has probably forced MSAA on everyone for their FX series (hence their driver detection disables AA from Splinter Cell)... can you see the double standard you are making to CATALYST MAKER to what ACTUALLY EXISTS in NVidia's drivers?

The FX does use supersampling.. but in the form of higher supersampling modes (I don't know which, but they are 4X and up)

There IS NO 2X SSAA to my knowledge... (unless someone points this wrong to me)...

Please think about it for a moment.

[Skuzzy]

I thought this was a feedback thread for the Cat 3.7's?

Need to rename it the "ChrisRay Personal Vendetta to stop CATYLYST MAKER from posting here", as I see little to nothing being contributed to the discussion from ChrisRay, other than his personal beliefs that CM is the devil and we are all going to heck for listening to him.

See? I can be off topic too. What fun! OY!

Don't bother responding CR. You have more than enough rationalization in this thread to last for a long time and to cover any response I could possibly make.

[ChrisRay]

Well Chris, you have just convinced me that you simply don't get it, nor do you want to get it.

What you state above can be contradicted with the following post at Rage3D...


Bigbertha, also refer to this.


This thread is the most disrespectful and upsetting thread I have ever run into. I am hoping the moderators jump in and lock it down like it should have been a long time ago.

Spyre please update your master bug list that we are aware of the problem and will fix it as soon as possible.

For all the people that have experienced this bug, we truly apologize and have elevated its visibility now. It will get addressed. For now if this bug is so unbearable please roll back to an earlier driver.

I am done with this thread.

Sorry everyone.

I feel my complaints are legit. Part of customer support is dealing with customer complaints. And how you deal with them is important to me.

I don't see anywhere that CM is pointing fingers at anyone. What I see is an admission that the bug was not high enough on the priority list at the time 3.7's were finalized. He does admit that trying to include thae above fix would have prevented a timely release of the 3.7's which had numerous fixes already. Had the severity of the issue realized after release, been evident to ATI using proper feedback channels, the issue would have taken on a higher priority and likely would have taken precedence over another fix. Futhermore, the issue has been reproduced internally and a fix is forthcoming.



Once again. I have discussed reiterized, And completely acknowledged that is fixed. Had They just said it was fixed. It wouldnt have been an issue.

There was no reason to tell people that the problem for it not being in 3.7 was based on feedback. Zip, Zilch, None. This is my problem. He has stated that the reason it was not included was based on feedback. Which is simply ludicrous because. They had already fixed it and noted it.

I Understand that it was late. There were a million better ways to communicate why they were not released. Feedback was not the reason. CM is putting pressure onto the community taking the spotlight off himself.

You asked me to illustrated several instances where I feel I have seen Catalyst Maker do this.

The thread you have read was not as upsetting. It was users complaining about what they felt was inadequate customer service. Complaint lines are also a big part of customer service. Learning to deal with complaints (believe me I have worked technical support for Both Microsoft and Directv) In the best possible way is going to make a lot of people more happy about a given situation.

Denying, Play Cating, Arguing, and Lying to the customers about features, And or specific complaints and requests "is not" Customer service. I feel I have been very very clear on this issue. And I have responded to everything you have said with the most detailed replies I can come up with.


He has pointed out the issue, given users feedback that the issue will/has been resolved, a fix is coming, and a polite reminder to utilize the tools ATI has established for reporting driver bugs in the Catalyst driver program. I truly fail to see what part of this process you are having issues with. The only thing that sticks out in my observation is you have repeatedly made it well known that you don't like Terry or the job he is doing. To me, this is nothing more than a personal crusade on your part and you have twisted the comments to suit your own agenda. If you stick to the facts and read the comments as they were originally intended, you have no leg to stand on.

You are indeed entitled to your own opinion and free will. But I have. With every concievable way available to me. Have Illustrated points that I deem considerable. To my point. and Why I have chosen not Buy another ATI product or explain my own criticism of Catalyst Maker. My Only agenda here is to explain my point and my reasons for not buying another ATI product.

I have stated time and time again. My opinions are my own. And you are free to form your own. Nor have I tried to create a boycott on ATI products. I have listed my complaints. To me which are considerable and have affected my enjoyment of the product. That being said. No one is forcing my opinion or my beliefs on you. I have not told anyone here not to buy another product from ATI.

I have only explained my position and my feelings on this issue. If that is not satisfactory for you. Then there is not a whole lot to be said.

Chris,

Please..... this is a post to discuss catalyst 3.7 and not a person, enterprise, group of people or whatever.....
Please, make another thread about your feelings, likes, dislikes, sports, whatever....
I've read 3 pages of your crap and about your crap and is very annoying... I want to see bench results comparing radeons to nvidia, radeons to radeons, radeons to whatever.......
I ask you please, open a new thread about your complains... you will see..... you will have a lot of people in there to discuss it with you.....

Seriously:

I'll check what happens to CM (Colin Mcrae 3) and tell you something guys....

I made a single post. Which was drawn out here by other users who wished to argue my opinion on the matter. If you reread the thread, I was quoted and directly replied too. I am within my own right to clarify my own positions on this matter.

You can call it crap if you like. But Crap can only be cycled if its flushed. And users here have been stopping the drain in order to prove my own opinion wrong. In This case I have every right to explain and clarify my own opinion.



ChrisRay.. consider this..

NVidia has MSAA in the GF3 and later...

I'm not exactly sure which cards have MSAA applied to their standard AA modes (but I presume the FX series has it done)

NVidia has probably forced MSAA on everyone for their FX series (hence their driver detection disables AA from Splinter Cell)... can you see the double standard you are making to CATALYST MAKER to what ACTUALLY EXISTS in NVidia's drivers?



It's not forced if it can be over ridden. Nvidias 4x Super Sampling Method is fine for games that require Super Sampling. Which would be older titles. So therefore. 2x would be ideal. But 4x is generally enough for the titles which suffer from AA issues,

Nvidia stated that AA was disabled by develepor request.

There IS NO 2X SSAA to my knowledge... (unless someone points this wrong to me)...

Please think about it for a moment

Actually in OpenGL you can force super sampling in 2x/4x modes in Compatibility Modes. Which would definately be fine for Older titles. In Which Super Sampling is highly in demand for.

4xS, 4x Super Sampling. And Every mode beyond that is. Super Sampling or Super Sampling/Multi Sampling Hybrid.

I did a little research...

http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardw...3.4/default.asp

Apparently ATI DOES have something comparable to NVidia's digital vibrance...

To date, as said before, it's not worth complaining about the lack of digital vibrance... if people REALLY want it... get some folks at Rage3D on it.. (I don't see any significant value for a gloified color saturation)... if you think ATI's color controls are awful or not good enough for you, use their driver feedback system to suggest a better idea (of course you need people to suggest the same thing though)

non-MSAA AA is a rather decent idea... I believe there's been many a threads on that on the Rage3D forums... it WOULD be an idea to start a new thread (or update the existing thread to demand this feature)... of course you need to use the driver feedback forms at ATI (and the others that are complaining about it... which is REQUIRED to get ATI's attention)

The better framebuffer readback thing is an old issue..



Sorry Deathlike. It's not the same. Not Even Close. ATI's current form of Gamma adjustments, And Color adjustments all effect shaders of grey, While Nvidia Saturation modes effect the hue on Shades of red orange, green ect w/o effecting grey modes of the hue.

It isn't comparable.

What I find kind of interesting. Is in a Prior thread. I claimed that this was ATI's attempt to recreate Digital Vibrance. And Hanners and Sazar assured me it was not. So I am quite curious which you believe it is?


It has been resolved in the 3.2 CATs.. if you think it is STILL not fast enough, then you find people dissatisfied about it and go use the driver feedback forms (the Rage3D idea still applies).

Again, all the issues you have suggest requires people to feel unhappy about this issue (the more, the better)... if you're in the minority.. you'll pretty much have to accept the quirks...

NOT ALL things are bad.. you need to be constructive on how to approach it... or else people will criticize you for not being very tactful.

Considering they only noted the bug at around the Cat 3.5 Era, And have said it is a bug, But then suggested no one worry about it. Because it's not important.

Makes the 3.2 kinda moot. In Instances for Framebuffer readback (in OpenGL benchmark provided by Pete) The framebuffer readback of the Radeon is up to 3 times slower than that of the Geforce 3 Ti. To me that is very disturbing.

I refer to these threads which were posted just a month ago or 2 months ago. Well After Cat 3.2





http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=33692483&highlight=framebuffer

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=33692483&highlight=framebuffer



No, no. I wasn't meaning to suggest that. I was trying to suggest you get OTHER people who feel the same as you do to report themselves via the feedback form.

If you can get a couple of dozen people to fill out the form, you'll be making a real difference and they'll reconsider it.

FOCUS your protest where it will do the most good is all I was suggesting. I thought you asked what I would do, so I thought about it and that's what I came up with. I've been known to go off on me own crusades from time to time like that...

Tell You what Digital. In Light of that, I will do something to appease every side. And I have created a new signature in Light of that. Your suggestion has a little merit. But there needs to be a way to find a way to see my ideas without enforcing them.

I Will try a new signature and see if will avoid flame bait from others.

Seems to me Chris, you are working way to hard to paint Cat Maker in a bad light, it looks to me to have become a personal thing with you for whatever reason you have come up with. I have re-read all the dialog you posted between you and Cat Maker and I just don't come away with the same impressions you do. Apparently I'm looking at it with a different point of view than you are but I just don't agree with your assessments. Has it ever occured to you that just maybe your point of view is not the only one that could be correct? It doesn't seem so by your posts. Seems like you have made this a personal crusade.

I must admit. When I am dis satisfied with something I try to make my voice heard. And I probably am a bit extreme on issues. Under that Light. Most people seem to think I am forcing my beliefs on this issue on others. And I have very strong feelings on this issue.

And Yes. I am very aware of how things can be interpretted differently. And understanding that, I will acknowledge not everyone will see eye to eye with me on this issue.

But I am also not here telling people they are retard for having a different opinion from me. I feel that is a very strong beginning to respecting other peoples opinions.

I thought this was a feedback thread for the Cat 3.7's?

Need to rename it the "ChrisRay Personal Vendetta to stop CATYLYST MAKER from posting here", as I see little to nothing being contributed to the discussion from ChrisRay, other than his personal beliefs that CM is the devil and we are all going to heck for listening to him.

See? I can be off topic too. What fun! OY!

Don't bother responding CR. You have more than enough rationalization in this thread to last for a long time and to cover any response I could possibly make.



When you say things like this. I do wonder if you even read my first post regarding this issue. It was very small. And a Very Minor issue. Which has been dragged out. By Multiple users who questioned my reasoning. Which continued down in a snowball effect of why I think the way I do.

My Continously replies have been based on questions about my reasoninings on that issue. If you guys didnt want to know. I must question why you even asked.

Which I refer to my very first post here.

I respect the fact that you fixed it CM. But the fact that you keep peddling off that more people shoulda submitted user feedback is kinda petty. If you have found and reproduced the bug. It shouldn't matter if 100 users have submitted feedback.

You knew well about it anyways

And then. More and more people questioned me. And Questioned me and asked me why I thought and felt the way I did. And I have answered to the best of my ability.

And I ask again. If you guys were not interested. Why did you ask and try and understand my reasonings. With Each question I have tried very hard to accurately answer your questions based off my own beliefs. Blaming me for a complete hijacking of a thread is not fair. Because the others participated in this discussion just as much as I did.

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by ChrisRay

You can lead a Deer to Water, But you cant make them drink. Are you under the assumptions I have not filled out these requests? Because I have.

...

A Deer to water??? What have I been doing riding horse all these years, when I could have saddled up a deer?...cause that would be waaaay cool:p


Chris, I don't know if you posses the ability to pt yourself in someone else's shoes, but it's about time you tried.....

[Deathlike2]

Just about 1/2 of your problems ChrisRay can be resolved by the feedback program (and getting people to use the system)

The real question is whether you plan to USE the features that you seem to NEED.

What people USE and what people NEED are not usually the same...

Are you planning to USE the features you are advocating? Do you really NEED them? You really need to answer those questions...

For example, the GF3 introduced programmable T&L.. it seemed like a cool idea at the time.. considering T&L was always fixed... but.. have you heard any game taking advantage of this?.. I haven't heard any (to my knowledge).... Did anyone USE it?... Probably a few... do we NEED it? Perhaps... Perhaps not...

Promoting something that that doesn't have much value if you don't use it is technically pointless...

I don't use digital vibrance.. I personally don't have a need for it.. other people do.. and they're happy... if such a demand is needed for ATI.. then it may be entirely worthwhile to implement it...

The framebuffer issue... it doesn't seem to be top priority (as the thread is suggesting that it is being worked on, but I'm assuming that people need to use the feedback feature to get them going on it)... most applications DON'T use this feature.. unless you actually USE applications that require this feature..

It's best you keep your opinions out of this thread.. if you don't plan on contributing to the original nature of this topic (start another thread if need be)

[DivotMaker]

Chris Ray,

It is quite evident that you have your mind made up regardless of the facts and your own admitted personal bias will not let you admit that you might be wrong this time. You have twisted every word from every response to satisfy you own personal vendetta.

Next time I see an ATI thread and you have posted, I'll be comfortable knowing exactly where you are coming from. I will also be sure not to bother to respond because if I want to see a dog chase his tail (as this thread has gone round and round on the exact same issue), I will go out to my back yard and watch the real thing.

Take Care,

-Tim

Back to the original topic....

I am seeing ZERO issues with the Catalyst 3.7 drivers and they are actually working very well with everything I am playing as of right now...

[Deathlike2]

I just realized something...

The importance of priorities is vital to understanding the problem...

What one person THINKS is important may not be as important to another..

I think that's the bulk of the discussion..

It has nothing to do of whether CATALYST MAKER was aware or not.. if according to the bug reports that he felt it wasn't important... he'll get on fixing it at some point (not too soon, but eventually).... once people actually USE the proper tools to inform him of its severity (if it is really THAT bad), it will UP (increase) HIS priorities so it'll get fixed (it'll have much sooner, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the next release exactly, but approximately 1 or 2 builds away)

Part of the problem is also the quality of the reports (what affects one person may not necessarily affects others).. for example.. NWN has run pretty well on NVidia cards.. and abysmal for ATI cards... ATI is working with Bioware to my knowledge.. and pretty much actively correcting the problems (Bioware using NVidia extensions being the culprit)... while people are complaining about how ATI cards stink in this matter, the truth of the matter puts this issue at a whole different light (small reports of some issue on many random systems and when it is not reproducable MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT to isolate, which this ends up being called an isolated user problem)...

The fact that MANY people KNOW about it AND EXPERIENCED it.. should be an incentive to EVERYONE that they NEED to tell ATI about it (via the proper means, and as long as they explain how to reproduce it clearly)...

That's a pretty small request on the grand scheme of things.

[ChrisRay]

Just about 1/2 of your problems ChrisRay can be resolved by the feedback program (and getting people to use the system)

The real question is whether you plan to USE the features that you seem to NEED.

What people USE and what people NEED are not usually the same...

Are you planning to USE the features you are advocating? Do you really NEED them? You really need to answer those questions...



In Regards to Digital Vibrance, yes, I would use it. All the time.


in Regards to Super Sampling. Yes I would use. When I play Emulated PSX/Saturn Games. Which, I already do.

Framebuffer access would go with the emulation scene.

More flexible per monitor controls I would use as well. As I have Dual Monitors. I dont see these features that I want as atrociously.

That being said, If these issues arent being looked into. And would satisfy a day to day use for me. What is wrong with wishing them to be implemented?

These features we are talking about now are considered feedback IMO.

Chris Ray,

It is quite evident that you have your mind made up regardless of the facts and your own admitted personal bias will not let you admit that you might be wrong this time. You have twisted every word from every response to satisfy you own personal vendetta.

Next time I see an ATI thread and you have posted, I'll be comfortable knowing exactly where you are coming from. I will also be sure not to bother to respond because if I want to see a dog chase his tail (as this thread has gone round and round on the exact same issue), I will go out to my back yard and watch the real thing.

Take Care,

-Tim



I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting here, You make it sound like I go out of my way to attack everything ATI has done and condone everything Nvidia has done. That is not the case.

I have admitted I was unsatisfied with the software engineering on several occasions and that was the basis of my bias. It is not a secret.

In Regards to vendetta? Do you understand what this word means to use it in such a fashion? I have no vendetta. I have a personal agenda. Which would much better fit this sentence.

I seek nothing ill towards ATI. But I do make my point abundantly clear that I am not satisfied with the current software engineer, And I have illustrated multiple points as to why I dont like this engineer and the way he is doing his job,.

You can call that a twist of the original display or whatever. I "dont" like the Catalyst Drivers in there current form. I "dont" like the way Catalyst team has peddled off features which I considered important for my own enjoyment.

I dont like being confronted with straw man arguments. That if I dont know exactly what Digital Vibrance does 100%, that he shouldnt have too.

I dont like being told that the current software can replicate an effect.

I Dont like being whined at for bringing user feedback to a thread that he himself set himself up to reply too.

That being said. You are not acknowledging these points. You are basing your entire point on this specific issue. Which, I even acknowledged. Was fine in it's current form. You have gone out of your way to evade this issue.

And throwing personal insults at the same time. (which IMO is incredibly tacky of you and I expected much better from you in this regard. As I have not been rude to you. At all)

[The Baron]

I get angry when I have to split stuff. It takes a long time. I'm hungry, and dinner is on the table. It smells good. But no, I have to split up the good stuff in the Catalyst thread from this crap.

Don't do it again, any of you.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by The Baron
I get angry when I have to split stuff. It takes a long time. I'm hungry, and dinner is on the table. It smells good. But no, I have to split up the good stuff in the Catalyst thread from this crap.

Don't do it again, any of you.

You split one off one of the wrong posts :o (some guy talking about DVD issues)