The OGL Bug Flame Thread.

[ChrisRay]

I respect the fact that you fixed it CM. But the fact that you keep peddling off that more people shoulda submitted user feedback is kinda petty. If you have found and reproduced the bug. It shouldn't matter if 100 users have submitted feedback.

You knew well about it anyways.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
I respect the fact that you fixed it CM. But the fact that you keep peddling off that more people shoulda submitted user feedback is kinda petty. If you have found and reproduced the bug. It shouldn't matter if 100 users have submitted feedback.

You knew well about it anyways.
Yeah, but there's also a whole bunch of other things people submit problems about and I believe he has to prioritize by the amount of people having problems in how ATi deals with it.

I don't know for sure, I'm just guessing....but I bet it's a good guess. :)

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Yeah, but there's also a whole bunch of other things people submit problems about and I believe he has to prioritize by the amount of people having problems in how ATi deals with it.

I don't know for sure, I'm just guessing....but I bet it's a good guess. :)


I'm Fully aware of that, Actually I respect the fact that it has been fixed, I just dont like the user being blamed for something that is not really the users responcibility in the first place.

Does that make sense?

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
I'm Fully aware of that, Actually I respect the fact that it has been fixed, I just dont like the user being blamed for something that is not really the users responcibility in the first place.

Does that make sense?
Yeah, I get where you're coming from; but I don't think CM was blaming the user with his reply, I think he was honestly trying to explain what happened.

There's a thread over on R3D I just came across that he talks about it in, you can read it for yourself here (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33708839).

I can see how you might have read him blaming it on users into what he wrote, but I honestly don't think that's what he was trying to imply...I really believe he was trying to shoot straight with you.

[Clay]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
I respect the fact that you fixed it CM. But the fact that you keep peddling off that more people shoulda submitted user feedback is kinda petty. If you have found and reproduced the bug. It shouldn't matter if 100 users have submitted feedback.

You knew well about it anyways.

You didn't quote CM so I'm assuming that you're referring to this post of his:
It is a minor annoyance that only 16 people had reported to us!
When you go to high quality setting on the texture compression setting in the OGL control panel, we are mistakingly converting textures to 16 bit as opposed to 32 bit.

I have seen a fix today and we are at analyzing quality of the fix. It will be fixed next CATALYST release.

I don't see his post worthy of your comment:
...you keep peddling off that more people shoulda submitted user feedback is kinda petty...

I took what he said as a simple referral to prioritizing what would be fixed in this release vs. what will be released in version 3.8. If you had 1,000 people reporting bug X, 500 reporting bug Y and 16 reporting bug Z I'm sure you'd put bug Z on a lower priority for the most part. Granted, there are always exceptions.

So, just my take on it. I don't like to see people being accused of being petty or anything else unless its really called for. :)

[walkndude]

I havent stopped using the 3.2 cats so the 32bit bug hasnt effected any games I play , but to see cm make the comment at rage(it was 10 complaints when he replied there) and then here about how it was an annoyance that only 16 people made a report burns me to no end...

No 32bit in ogl isnt important enough on its own, yeah right. Its been there since 3.4, 3.6, and now 3.7.

Hilarious to see "the dig"(laffs) defend this type of thing, cuz you know if it were nvidia he'd bee screaming bloody murder as usual on every message board known to man how they're cheating in ogl benchmarks like serious sam, wolfenstein, quake3, and jedi knight.

just fix it allready.

[ChrisRay]

took what he said as a simple referral to prioritizing what would be fixed in this release vs. what will be released in version 3.8. If you had 1,000 people reporting bug X, 500 reporting bug Y and 16 reporting bug Z I'm sure you'd put bug Z on a lower priority for the most part. Granted, there are always exceptions.

So, just my take on it. I don't like to see people being accused of being petty or anything else unless its really called for.

I am referring to this.


CATALYST maker
ATI Guru

Registered: Oct 2002
Location: ATI Canada
Posts: 783
update on this bug
This bug is understood and fixed in an internal build. It was however too late to hit the 3.7 schedule and we did not want to delay 3.7 since it fixed so many other things.

Furthermore I hate to say it but the amount of feedback we have had in regards to that bug is suprisingly low (less than 10), so it was not considered a very high priority.

Sorry for letting it slip but honestly you need to let us know what bugs are important to you. Follow the link in my sig and keep letting us know what we need to fix in what order.


__________________




Making it a priority based on user feedback. Because users didnt fill out the feedback button is petty. It shows to me, That they'd rather blame the user than actually just recognise the problem and say they fixed it.

He has repeatively mentioned that he is annoyed because users did not fill out the feedback button. Noting this. It's not rocket science to understand that having Image Quality out of whack by a difference as large as 32 --> 16 bit color is a huge problem.

The fact that they reproduced it. Documented it. And fixed it. Makes it aparent that it "is" there problem. Pointing fingers at the community for not filling out a feedback button when they were well aware of the problem. Is "Petty"

It's like a child saying. "Ya I broke the vase, But because you didnt say anything sooner means it wasnt important"

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
Making it a priority based on user feedback. Because users didnt fill out the feedback button is petty.
Uhm, at least they HAVE a feedback mechanism for their drivers and use it. :rolleyes:

If it's such a huge problem for you, why don't you take the 3 minutes required to fill out the form and hit the button? It is what it's there for. ;)

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Uhm, at least they HAVE a feedback mechanism for their drivers and use it. :rolleyes:

If it's such a huge problem for you, why don't you take the 3 minutes required to fill out the form and hit the button? It is what it's there for. ;)


It's "Not" a problem for me. I am annoyed by the customer support, and the way it was handled. That being said. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. As I havent respected the way Catalyst Maker handles his customers for a long time.

So you can choose to take it with a grain of salt if you like. But I'm not the only one who was annoyed by this.

[The Baron]

Chris, you have to look at it all in perspective. They're not going to say, "Oh, look, it's fixed!" only to have it not be fixed in certain situations because of inadequate testing--hence the beta program.

He's covering his ass, which he should do. You can't test one game, pronounce something fixed, and say, "Dandy!" because it probably won't be fixed.

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by The Baron
Chris, you have to look at it all in perspective. They're not going to say, "Oh, look, it's fixed!" only to have it not be fixed in certain situations because of inadequate testing--hence the beta program.

He's covering his ass, which he should do. You can't test one game, pronounce something fixed, and say, "Dandy!" because it probably won't be fixed.

Once again. I'm not disputing. Or Even upset that it wasnt released. I'm annoyed by the finger pointing. Being Done on his part. If he had said "It was not released because we have not adequately beta tested it" Then that would have been so much better than saying "We have not fixed this. Because it wasn't important because a few people filled out the feedback form"

I'm upset with the attitude. Not the problem in general. The way it was handled shows me that they have absolutely no respect for the customer at all.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
Once again. I'm not disputing. Or Even upset that it wasnt released. I'm annoyed by the finger pointing. Being Done on his part. If he had said "It was not released because we have not adequately beta tested it" Then that would have been so much better than saying "We have not fixed this. Because it wasn't important because a few people filled out the feedback form"

I'm upset with the attitude. Not the problem in general. The way it was handled shows me that they have absolutely no respect for the customer at all.
Did you submit a driver report on it?

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Did you submit a driver report on it?

Like I said. The Problem didnt affect me. So no. The problem itself does not bother me at all.

[Red Dog]

I wouldnt go as far as saying they have no respect for the customer, I believe the cat team and ati in general try very hard to be responsive.

I believe Terry should be commended for his efforts. Im just a little pissed that 3.7 didn fix the ogl texture bug, but its not the end of the world and not worth crucifying anyone over.

32bit textures seem like a fundamental issue and I cant understand how something like that got broken in the first place, but I know jack about programing drivers. I imagine its rather complex.

I hate to say it, but imo the bit about submitting a bug report is rediculous when everyone knows the cat team was aware about it.

Further more, beta testers read the cat forums at rage3d like they are studying for a exam. I know at least 10 of them have seen the forum posts regarding this bug.

Im sounding more negative than I want to, but I do feel that way. Overall its not like Im bleeding to death because Im stuck on 3.5's

[Mike89]

Catalyst Maker:

It is a minor annoyance that only 16 people had reported to us!
When you go to high quality setting on the texture compression setting in the OGL control panel, we are mistakingly converting textures to 16 bit as opposed to 32 bit.

I assume you are talking about the Opengl Texture Preference slider that would be all the way right for "High Quality"? If so, are you saying that backing the slider one notch to the left (Quality) would go back to 32 bit textures?

[Hellbinder]

There was plenty of talk going on about the OpenGL texture bug. I can assure you of that. It is simply a matter that there were other bigger fish to fry this time around.

This is not a control panel issue as far as I can tell. It is related to the Actual OpenGL ARB Compression extensions.

I believe that you are going to forget all about this little woe around the time of the next driver release. You simply have No Idea. :cool:

[Hellbinder]

Chrisray

Making it a priority based on user feedback. Because users didnt fill out the feedback button is petty. It shows to me, That they'd rather blame the user than actually just recognise the problem and say they fixed it.

Dude this whole statement is just Retarded. Seriously..

*OF COUSE* Driver bugs are going to be Prioritized based on User *FEEDBACK*. Good Freaking grief man... where else is it supposed to come from?? Blame the user??? Blame the user??? You *Seriously* need to step back and Re-evaluate your Thinking here. It appears to be way off. No one is blaming the user, no one is being petty here Except for YOU.

Everyone who has a Radeon card does not hang out on message boards or Cruise the internet for information. You clearly dont even have a grasp on the Million or So top end Radeon cards currently in Circulation. of which about 1% *Maybe* post on these forums we all Frequent. The rest use the Tech support lines and proper feedback channels. Now if you had something that 1000 people had properly reported, and another issue that 16 people had reported.. Which one do you Think is going to be the top priority??? :rolleyes:

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
Chrisray

Dude this whole statement is just Retarded. Seriously..

*OF COUSE* Driver bugs are going to be Prioritized based on User *FEEDBACK*. Good Freaking grief man... where else is it supposed to come from?? Blame the user??? Blame the user??? You *Seriously* need to step back and Re-evaluate your Thinking here. It appears to be way off. No one is blaming the user, no one is being petty here Except for YOU.

Everyone who has a Radeon card does not hang out on message boards or Cruise the internet for information. You clearly dont even have a grasp on the Million or So top end Radeon cards currently in Circulation. of which about 1% *Maybe* post on these forums we all Frequent. The rest use the Tech support lines and proper feedback channels. Now if you had something that 1000 people had properly reported, and another issue that 16 people had reported.. Which one do you Think is going to be the top priority??? :rolleyes:


You are entitled to your opinion. This is not an issue that only 16 people reported. It doesnt even matter when it's released. I think you have completely totally missed the point.

I myself. Have no problem with the release date being "held back" Which I have iterated a 100 times. (Yes please read my posts thoroughly) And I have suggested the fix in its current form is fine.

I have a problem with Catalyst Maker Pointing fingers at the community for not submitting enough user feedback. When this has already been fixed. And Blaming it on the community not sending in enough feedback.

This bug has been. Documented, acknowledged, And is now being tested. This is not the community's fault nor is it our responcibility. There is absolutely no reason to be annoyed at the community for a bug ATI introduced in its own drivers.

And expect the entire community to beta test and report it to them via the feedback. With all due respect.

The responcibility lies solely on ATI and it's beta testers. And the fact that Catalyst Maker would even remotely try to pin the responcibility on the users is reprehensible.

The Fact, That they were aware of the bug, And documented it. And fixed it. Makes the user feedback irrelevent. Catalyst Maker. In an analogy I represented above. Has tried to take the spotlight off himself. And scapegoat the community and customers because people were not satisfied with the product. Even. Having An Entire thread shut down. Because. He did not like reading the complaints about him.

To you. I may be petty Hellbinder. But In my opinion. Customer Service, And the way you treat a customer. Is just as important as the product itself. If you have ever worked any kind of job that services the customer in any possible way.

An Unhappy customer due to poor customer relations. Is the reason most customers do not return. That being said. I have no problem speaking with my wallet. And I have stated this several times. Catalyst Maker is the reason I will never buy another ATI product.

And I have no problem not purchasing product based on bad experience with customer relations. I will never buy another creative labs product either. I am firm believer in quality customer service relates very much to the way the representive of said company handles himself to the customer.

That being said. ATI lost my business ever again months ago. But I have no problem speaking out against what I deem as a problem with customer relationships.

ATI has 10 fold chances to win me back. But I have seen nothing that makes me want to buy another product from them. With examples I have listed in this thread and prior ones. Against said representive and certain quality of software, and updates that become available to paying customers.

And Yes. I am a hard to please individual. But those who try to please me. Earn my cash alot quicker than those who peddle me off as unimportant.

[The Baron]

Now now, ladies.

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by The Baron
Now now, ladies.

Hey I wasnt being disrespectful. Thats not usually my style. Tho. Accept maybe to CM. But none of my posts have been directed at him~

[Mike89]

Chris, you aren't going to buy any more ATI products. All I can say is it's your loss not mine. You want to settle for Nvidia right now, be my guest. Glad it's you and not me. I have installed the 3.7s and installation went fine and so far no problems at all. Whatever chapped your hide apparently was enough to go to your drastic, "never buy another ATI card" course. So be it. From my experience I'm fine where I'm at with my 9800 Pro because I have no reason not to be. Personally I think Cat Maker is an OK guy but that's just my opinion. I don't see any Nvidia reps taking time on forums to try to help people. Do you? Nuff said.

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by Mike89
Chris, you aren't going to buy any more ATI products. All I can say is it's your loss not mine. You want to settle for Nvidia right now, be my guest. Glad it's you and not me. I have installed the 3.7s and installation went fine and so far no problems at all. Whatever chaped your hide apparently was enough to go to your drastic, "never buy another ATI card" course. So be it. From my experience I'm fine where I'm at with my 9800 Pro because I have no reason not to be.

I wouldnt call it drastic. It's been several issues over the course of time. And Continual disapointment. Expecially on the software front. And Dealings with a specific individual whom works for ATI. Whom I dont have to name.

In Regards to settling with Nvidia. You seem to be under the assumption I'll "settle" for anything. This is not the case. I currently dont need to spend anymore money on my computer. We'll see how things look in a year when it's time to upgrade. I have a feeling there will be other options than Nvidia and ATI at the time.

And thats assuming Nvidia is in bad shape. If a product suits my needs. Then I am satisfied with it. So far, The radeon 9500 Pro. Has not suited my needs. And this entirely on the software front. And Every time I have brought it inadequacy what my needs of the current software. I met with blatant disrespect.

Paticularly from said software producer.

[Mike89]

Well I can't speak for the 9500, since my only ATI card has been my current 9800 Pro which is quite a bit of a step up from what you are running. If you had my card, maybe you would think differently. Just my two cents.

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by Mike89
Well I can't speak for the 9500, since my only ATI card has been my current 9800 Pro which is quite a bit of a step up from what you are running. If you had my card, maybe you would think differently. Just my two cents.


It's not a performance issue is the thing.


Anyway, I gotta go to bed, I work tommorrow. :(

[DivotMaker]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
I have a problem with Catalyst Maker Pointing fingers at the community for not submitting enough user feedback. When this has already been fixed. And Blaming it on the community not sending in enough feedback.

Is that what Terry said? It appears to me that you are looking for any angle you can to convince everyone that Terry is in the wrong here. You have admitted that you don't like the guy and you don't care for the way he runs his business. So you think your comments can be regarded as objective?

Terry is not BLAMING the community. If you cared to read the threads, the users were on the offensive asking why this issue was not resolved. Terry admitted to being frustrated at the lack of user feedback reports on this which is one of the few ways they have to generate feedback. I do believe that Terry's reference to "minor annoyance" was due to the fact that so few people actually reported the bug in the proper channels, yet the bug appears to be widespread. These guys cannot be everywhere all the time. Things slip through the cracks sometime. At least give the guy credit for addressing the issue with the customers and acknowledging the issue and admitting that it was something they wish they had not missed in 3.7.

Originally posted by ChrisRay
This bug has been. Documented, acknowledged, And is now being tested. This is not the community's fault nor is it our responcibility. There is absolutely no reason to be annoyed at the community for a bug ATI introduced in its own drivers.

Where do you get that Terry is annoyed with the community? You completely misread his "minor annoyance" quote. Terry nor ATI are blaming anyone in the community for the bug. What they are doing is trying to make a case for users to utilize the existing lines of communication available to them besides Rage3D driver forums. This way, the data goes straight to the driver team and does not have to be disseminated from the HUNDREDS of driver threads at Rage3D. A reasonable request IMHO.

Originally posted by ChrisRay
And expect the entire community to beta test and report it to them via the feedback. With all due respect.

You show me a video card company TODAY who is doing more than ATI to interact with their customers and find solutions to their issues? "With all due respect", I disagree with you 100%.

Originally posted by ChrisRay
The responcibility lies solely on ATI and it's beta testers. And the fact that Catalyst Maker would even remotely try to pin the responcibility on the users is reprehensible.

He did not do that, plain as day. You are reaching for something that is simply not there.

Originally posted by ChrisRay
The Fact, That they were aware of the bug, And documented it. And fixed it. Makes the user feedback irrelevent. Catalyst Maker. In an analogy I represented above. Has tried to take the spotlight off himself. And scapegoat the community and customers because people were not satisfied with the product. Even. Having An Entire thread shut down. Because. He did not like reading the complaints about him.

I am not sure how many times you intend to repeat yourself, but you simply misread the post and with your admitted dislike of him, it is easy to see where you are coming from.

Originally posted by ChrisRay
An Unhappy customer due to poor customer relations. Is the reason most customers do not return. That being said. I have no problem speaking with my wallet. And I have stated this several times. Catalyst Maker is the reason I will never buy another ATI product.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I can tell you that I feel just the opposite. Terry and the Catalyst Driver team are one of the big reasons that I am using ATI now. The 9800 Pro is a great product, but to see the effort they are expending to improve their product is certainly a notch or 10 above what many companies are doing after the sale...


Originally posted by ChrisRay
ATI has 10 fold chances to win me back. But I have seen nothing that makes me want to buy another product from them. With examples I have listed in this thread and prior ones. Against said representive and certain quality of software, and updates that become available to paying customers.

And Yes. I am a hard to please individual. But those who try to please me. Earn my cash alot quicker than those who peddle me off as unimportant.

Well, I am not priviledged to the interaction between you and Terry and frankly it is none of my business. However, you have gone out of your way in numerous posts in this thread as well as among others spreading the story of how much you dislike ATI and the software that is being produced for their hardware. Again, you are entitled to your opinion.

The only thing that bothers me in reading all of these negative comments is how you are going out of your way to point the finger at one person. You dislike Terry. Fine. Why do you need numerous posts to say the same exact thing over and over? In this reply alone you repeat yourself often. When you publicize comments such as these, there is an inherent risk involved that some day you may have to eat your words or go back on feelings you have expressed. I just find that such comments are really unnecessary personal attacks. You are looking at this situation with the glass-half-empty mentality. IOW, what is WRONG with this picture instead of what is RIGHT. Terry and ATI are doing a helluva lot more RIGHT than WRONG. I prefer the glass-half-full attitude. Nobody is perfect...not Terry, ATI, you or myself. Think about that the next time you choose to openly criticize someone when you very likely have misread that person's intentions in the first place.