nVidia is at it again!!! Raise FPS and lower IQ! AquaMark3 & Det.50 compared

[Clay]

Originally posted by eesa
oh, and the reason I didn't quote that was cause I wasn't hoping to get into a fight or anything -I just wanted to get something off my chest.
Thanks for the cool-headed response eesa and I see your point about not quoting. I just hate digging back through pages of past posts is all. :)

That's the problem with written text...the subtleties of inflection, expression, etc are lost...so it's easy (and understandable) to misinterpret. I think Mike's just had it up to here with bashing, trolling and flaming of any kind, towards anyone or any company. It's so very very tired.

I didn't question your stance on any of the staff here at nV News so please don't think I implied as such. I just thanked Digi 'cause you know, sometimes he gets kinda crazy and, well, with him being all nice and everything I had to say thanks.

Mike doesn't have any conflicts of interest regarding this site as far as I'm concerned. He doesn't take crap from anyone or any company. He just wants to shoot straight and have fun along with the rest of us.

Thanks again for discussing this with class and know that we're glad to have you around here.

[eesa]

Originally posted by maxpower
Mike doesn't have any conflicts of interest regarding this site as far as I'm concerned. He doesn't take crap from anyone or any company. He just wants to shoot straight and have fun along with the rest of us.


I can only hope that's true. Ppl change. I'm sorry if I'm being cynical. I'd be glad to be proven wrong. Don't get me wrong -I think mike's a great guy who definitely has a passion or else this site would never have existed. Plus the fact that he gave me a gf1 and a gf2 I'll always be grateful for. Nothing can change those 2 things. It's just now this presence isn't what it used to be (he posted news many times a day) and when he does poke his head out it's usually to defend nvidia. That's how I've come to arrive at the conclusion.

[MikeC]

Sorry I'm not perfect Eesa. I do still work a full time job and have wanted to enjoy other interests beside this webpage.

BTW, your IP address is coming from ATI Headquarters, do you work for ATI?

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by MikeC
Sorry I'm not perfect Eesa. I do still work a full time job and have wanted to enjoy other interests beside this webpage.
Speaking of other interests, I just heard that Hurricane Isabelle has been downclassed to a category two...I'll keep working on it. ;)

[MikeC]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Speaking of other interests, I just heard that Hurricane Isabelle has been downclassed to a category two...I'll keep working on it. ;)

Thanks John, try and get it downgraded to tropical storm. These computers will not all fit in the van. :D

[eesa]

Originally posted by MikeC
Sorry I'm not perfect Eesa. I do still work a full time job and have wanted to enjoy other interests beside this webpage.

BTW, your IP address is coming from ATI Headquarters, do you work for ATI?

bah, one comment turns into 2 turns into 3....

Hey, I know you have your own life and I wasn't trying to emphisize how you haven't been around. That's not the point at all. You've maintained this site all this time and we all have you to thank for that.

Now for what I was really trying to get at, for which that software rendering remark only served to trigger. It really does look (from my perspective) that when you make statements it's coming out of some nvidia media relations handbook. And with the site getting bigger and ever more successful and nvidia obviously poking around here, there's more on the table for you than say 5 years ago. I'll believe you if you tell me I'm wrong, but on the outside without all the facts it does seem that way.

hmm, looked up my ip. Wanted to ban me already? ;) Yeah, I'm here doing sort of doing an internship. Part of my university program. It's cool in that I get to play with the latest stuff and see all the release info -was holding an eng. sample XT today. But I hope you give me enough credit and believe that this doesn't affect my objectivity too much.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by eesa
bah, one comment turns into 2 turns into 3....

Hey, I know you have your own life and I wasn't trying to emphisize how you haven't been around. That's not the point at all. You've maintained this site all this time and we all have you to thank for that.

Now for what I was really trying to get at, for which that software rendering remark only served to trigger. It really does look (from my perspective) that when you make statements it's coming out of some nvidia media relations handbook. And with the site getting bigger and ever more successful and nvidia obviously poking around here, there's more on the table for you than say 5 years ago. I'll believe you if you tell me I'm wrong, but on the outside without all the facts it does seem that way.

hmm, looked up my ip. Wanted to ban me already? ;) Yeah, I'm here doing sort of doing an internship. Part of my university program. It's cool in that I get to play with the latest stuff and see all the release info -was holding an eng. sample XT today. But I hope you give me enough credit and believe that this doesn't affect my objectivity too much.
OH! :eek:

I just had this great idea for an Elite Bastard's headline: "ATi employee makes trouble at leading nVidia site!" :D

I gotta go update the front-page, I'll be right back!

The Dig runs off with an absolutely insane look in his eyes and an ear-to-ear grin...

[Skuzzy]

:rofl

You guys are slow. We have known he was an intern at ATI for a couple of weeks.

Hmmmm,...wonder if Isabelle is a vapor now. hehe. I'm in a mood today. Having some fun between builds.

[eesa]

don't even think about it.

I would hardly consider this making trouble, and I've always called this place my home regardless of where I work.

[Skuzzy]

He's razing you eesa. My bet is he is still trying to find his car keys. Wonder if he knows about hurricane Juliet? hehe

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by eesa
don't even think about it.
Heh-heh-heh-heh-heh! ;)

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
My bet is he is still trying to find his car keys.
Pffffffft! I keep an extra set just for that reason and still got 15 minutes before I gotta go pick up me son from school. :p (I was just teasing though. ;) )

[eesa]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
He's razing you eesa. My bet is he is still trying to find his car keys. Wonder if he knows about hurricane Juliet? hehe

I know. What? Just because I don't overuse smilies it means I'm being serious all the time?

So what's with this hurricane business? I haven't been paying attention to the weather.

[eesa]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Pffffffft! I keep an extra set just for that reason and still got 15 minutes before I gotta go pick up me son from school. :p (I was just teasing though. ;) )

Yeah, speaking of which, you have a family and all. How DO you manage to spend so much time around here? It's absolutely amazing :eek: I thought marriage destroyed any hope of having free time ;)

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by eesa
Yeah, speaking of which, you have a family and all. How DO you manage to spend so much time around here? It's absolutely amazing :eek: I thought marriage destroyed any hope of having free time ;)
It's been easy ever since a few weeks ago, both my children FINALLY started school full-time and I'm finding life a whole lot easier....before that it was in 5 minute sanity breaks and just typing about a bazillion words a minute. (I'm a pretty quick typist, I think most of us are. ;) )

With school in session I actually get some time to THINK while I post and such, it's neat! My house is actually clean and I got the time to keep it clean, the family is doing great, and I'm actually getting ready to start a few projects for Elite Bastards that I never could before due to time restraints. (And a 3 & 6 year old that like to "help" Daddy play with his computers....but I shouldn't complain since the buggers are pretty bright with 'em. ;) )

It's a good time to have some free time too. I've been burning the candle at both ends for about 5 years now and I don't mind the world slowing down a little one bit at all! :lol:

[Clay]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
:rofl

You guys are slow. We have known he was an intern at ATI for a couple of weeks.

Hmmmm,...wonder if Isabelle is a vapor now. hehe. I'm in a mood today. Having some fun between builds.
Nah, we're not slow...just q u i e t sometimes. ;)

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by maxpower
Nah, we're not slow...just q u i e t sometimes. ;)
Yeah, that's a good way to describe me; quiet. :)

[eesa]

I'm impressed at how you juggle things around. You know what would make your life easier? -if you had the forums hardwared to your brain somehow and subscribe to those wireless services like those blackberries. Then you'd really be a force to be recken's with :)

Anyway, enough or they'll move this thing to open. I feel bad whenever that happens.

[eesa]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Yeah, that's a good way to describe me; quiet. :)

I think max was trying to say that skuzzy had a big mouth :p

hey, skuzzy... I just said it out loud in my head. That's kinda funny. You realize I almost never try to pronounce any of your nicks -I somehow just recognize the pattern without ever seeing how it sounds.

[The Baron]

Originally posted by eesa
I think max was trying to say that skuzzy had a big mouth :p

hey, skuzzy... I just said it out loud in my head. That's kinda funny. You realize I almost never try to pronounce any of your nicks -I somehow just recognize the pattern without ever seeing how it sounds.
He worked at Adaptec for a while... I believe he was either the head of the **40 development or worked on **40 development. :p

(and Jesus, I'm supposed to be somewhere in two minutes and I'm posting on the forums? I am insane.)

[Clay]

Originally posted by eesa
I think max was trying to say that skuzzy had a big mouth :p

Hey now, yank those words back outta my mouth. :) No, I was just saying that some of us staff members here know a few things that we don't always come out and say publicly all the time. 'Course, knowing how to lookup IP information is about as big a deal flipping on a lightswitch. :D

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by The Baron
He worked at Adaptec for a while... I believe he was either the head of the **40 development or worked on **40 development. :p

(and Jesus, I'm supposed to be somewhere in two minutes and I'm posting on the forums? I am insane.)
Happens to me all the time too. ;)

Has anyone heard anything new from nVidia since the last "Use them for benchmarks and talk about performance but not about image quality" rap? (And I'm not talking about the PCI announcement, I meant something meaty. ;) )

[eesa]

Originally posted by maxpower
'Course, knowing how to lookup IP information is about as big a deal flipping on a lightswitch. :D

wow I feel violated :eek: Okay, that's it. I'm officially done spamming this thread.

I think I'm going over to that other nvidia/OGL thread to tell the guy how lame I think his example was.
actually no, I think I'll get back to work now. It's after 4pm already!

[Skuzzy]

At Adaptec for 6 or 7 years. The xx40 series was my creation. I actually did the design and wrote the drivers for the 1540, then they gave me some help and I settled on doing all the UNIX drivers and doling out the design chores for the hardware. Had to do the marketing for that first generation product as well.
It was a lot of fun. I quit the day the President/CEO handed me a plaque and shook my hand thanking me for making him and the board insanely rich. That was the last time I really ever worked for anyone.

My nickname has been hung around my neck since I was in high school. I was a beach bum and looked pretty scuzzy most of the time. Later on, in some Usenet forum, one of the engineers from National Semi coined me as Mr. SCSI. I said, nah,..it's Skuzzy. Been that way since.
Not a beach bum anymore, but still look pretty scuzzy. :D

[aaronspink]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
Well, no. #1 and #4 are not the same. For example, look at ATI's optimization in GT4 of 3dmark03 which supposedly was mathematically and functionally the same as the original code. However, Futuremark at that point still deemed code replacement unacceptable. And in the case of synthetic benchmarks, I agree. And from a poll I conducted earlier, the majority of people agree with me.

If you look at the reason why Futuremark objected, you will find that it had nothing to do with the mathematical correctness of the shader optimization.

The issue is that the optimization actually was in violation of both #2 ( an optimization must accelerate more than just the benchmark ) and #3 ( an optimization must not rely on any precomputed state ).

#2 is easy. The optimization was specific just to GT4. #3 is more subtle: ATI was using shader replacement which relied on doing a match ( likely using a hash of the original shader ) and replace operation on the original shader. This required a prior knowledge of what the shader was.

Any and all non-algorithmic ( aka bulk shader replacement ) would violate #3 but something like the new instruction order optimizers that both ATI and Nvidia are adding to their drivers would not since the optimizers don't rely on any precomputed state. Now there could still be possibilities of the instruction optimizers violating #2.

The reason why Futuremark and Valve are concerned about the bulk shader replacement is that it hides real issues with the drivers/hardware of a video card that can be exposed with shader updates, etc.


As a side comment. If the hardware sites are serious about this, they may want to take a look at some of the specCPU run rules. While the spec rules are far from perfect, they are closer to it than anything out there.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc