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nVidi0t
09-15-03, 08:41 AM
Well, since there are so many threads on here bashing nVidia (rightfully so, if taking it a little far sometimes) I think nVidia fans should have a chance to explain why they still love and use nVidia hardware.

Of course nVidia's recent slipups being driver 'bugs', speed hacks, bad rushed drivers, flickering issues and the most recent REALLY bad DX9 performance have damaged nVidia's rep in the eyes of the fans, and with all these nVidia bashing threads cluttering up every graphics related website it's hard to actually see any GOOD in nVidia anymore, when they still have a lot of good left.

I have owned two ATI graphics boards since I started gaming. The first being a Rage All-In-Wonder and the second being an 8500. All I can say is that I was doing more driver swapping than gaming. I literally had to reinstall drivers to play different games. Yeah sure, everyone can say that it may have been "just my setup", but the fact of the matter is that this has never happened using a graphics board from nVidia.

Also, people may say that their new offerings dont have the driver problems like the older cards. Well, knowing a lot of people who use the new Radeons (R3**), at LAN's I laugh to myself when I see them too, swapping drivers to play games just as I did using ATI, or just not being able to play a game because of screen garble.

Dont get me wrong, I have seen 9800's and 9700's running perfectly fine at blazing speeds, but when I put the number of bugs I have seen on ATI cards against nVidia cards, the ratio is around 10:1.

What I really dont like that I have noticed lately is nVidias driver quality getting lower and lower. I am noticing more bugs and more display errors than ever now, and it is getting worse because they are under IMMENSE pressure to make the FX line perform. It's pretty clear now that they are going to lose the speed crown (for the month or so they had it with the NV35) with the new DX9 games, I wish they would just tune the drivers for stability again.

The fact of the matter is, I have 65 games installed on my PC, and with every Detonator release ranging from 2 years ago, every game has worked flawlessly, with liquid smooth framerates, great IQ, and no bugs.

(Just stay away from the detonator FX!! :D)

I am considering trying my luck with ATI again if the NV40 leaves nVidia in another "cheat to win" situation, but right now I'm just going to skip this cycle of top end cards and see who wins the next round.

Any other nVidia fans left? :)

saturnotaku
09-15-03, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by nVidi0t
I am considering trying my luck with ATI again if the NV40 leaves nVidia in another "cheat to win" situation, but right now I'm just going to skip this cycle of top end cards and see who wins the next round.

I don't think that's a bad philosophy at all. The NV25 still has plenty of life left in it for at least the next 8-12 months. While you won't be able to play games like Halo or HL2 with all the visual goodies, it's not as if you won't be able to enjoy at least some of them.

I'm waiting out the next product cycle myself; that's why I picked up this 9500. If someone had a GeForce2 MX or lower class card and they wanted an upgrade right now, I'd tell them to go the inexpensive route (FX 5200 Ultra, 9600 Pro) then strike when the NV40/R420 cards are available.

Any other nVidia fans left? :)

Ask anyone who's been on these boards as long as I and they'll tell you I was a staunch supporter of NVIDIA. I still am to a certain degree. They continue to have superior OpenGL support, and their commitment to 3D in Linux is outstanding. The NV40 will be NVIDIA's chance to redeem itself, and if they produce a product that is equal to ATI's best I will purchase the NVIDIA card.

While I'm disappointed with all the things that have been going on in camp NV lately, I'm not about to abandon hope.

silence
09-15-03, 09:02 AM
from what i see u didnt start Nvidia_loving_thread, but ATi_bashing_thread.

and i really have no clue what you talk about drivers....i upgraded to 9500pro from GF2 and stability of drivers is same. in 6 months i had one single issue, 3.6 Cats crashing Morrowind, i went to Omega 3.5 and played Morrowind without problems..

and i heard from many ppl that they have problems with NV drivers lately, specially on older cards with latest drivers...its prolly too much "optimizing" for FX that causes problems for owners of older NV cards....

if u wanna talk about good things from Nvidia..start a thread about Nforce2 chipset:D .....i love it:)

nVidi0t
09-15-03, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by silence
from what i see u didnt start Nvidia_loving_thread, but ATi_bashing_thread.

and i really have no clue what you talk about drivers....i upgraded to 9500pro from GF2 and stability of drivers is same. in 6 months i had one single issue, 3.6 Cats crashing Morrowind, i went to Omega 3.5 and played Morrowind without problems..

and i heard from many ppl that they have problems with NV drivers lately, specially on older cards with latest drivers...its prolly too much "optimizing" for FX that causes problems for owners of older NV cards....

if u wanna talk about good things from Nvidia..start a thread about Nforce2 chipset:D .....i love it:)

I in no way intended to start an ATI bashing thread, everything I stated was from personal experience. I never said anywhere that ATI are a bad manufacturer of graphics cards, they are great.

I also said that I am well aware that a lot of people play games without problems with Radeons, but I just dont want to have to deal with it when it is "system specific"!

Dazz
09-15-03, 09:20 AM
Yeah the nForce 2 boards KICK ASS!!!! I love my nForce2 board.
Tries to resist temptation about bashing their gfx cards

GlowStick
09-15-03, 09:27 AM
I still like Nvidia,

I would however like to see a Dual Nforce3 w PCI-Express and at least 3 64bit PCI slots/66mhz of course!

Scott@Bjorn3D
09-15-03, 09:37 AM
Owning Bjorn 3D I have alot of NVIDIA cards and lately alot of ATI cards. I am still running 5900U even though I have a 9800PRO 256MB sitting on my shelf.

I will wait till I actaully have a game that does not work on my machine before I put the ATI product in to play.

The nicest things is my forums are slow since we mainly do reviews we don't have all this fighting going on.

windwaver
09-15-03, 09:51 AM
I'm with nVidia. I love it cos I never had any problems with its drivers or hardware. I dun game a lot and I'm not very concern about shaders performance.

I owned 2 ATi cards, the 8500LE & 9500Pro. I had but endless problems with their drivers & hardware (weavy lines, loop error, etc). Some ppl may not mind these but I really do, esp the weavy lines.

Like what I said, not everybody decides to buy a GFX on shader speed, in fact, the majority out there dun even know what a shader is and what it does! Of course, I'm looking closely at the 9800 series, if there're no more problems be it major or minior, I might decide to go back to ATi. Until then, I'll stick to nVidia :).

Scott@Bjorn3D
09-15-03, 10:02 AM
Oh yeah, that is why I am hanging out in your guys forums to see all the fighting. Alot of good points made out on both sides.

So I enjoy all the different views.

Hank Lloyd
09-15-03, 10:25 AM
The fundamental issue with nVidia isn't really drivers. It all comes down to a poor hardware architecture. The bugs will continue to get worse and worse as they inject more optimizations into their driver. You will also find that from an IQ standpoint, whatever nVidia ends up doing in their drivers will comes at this expense.

But even more importantly, is how bad it looks going forward. We now know that you pretty much will have to spend an enormous amount of time/energy/$$ in order to eek out performance that's not even what I would term "acceptable." We can all appreciate the fact that most game developers do not have the financial status of Id/Valve, so you can pretty much be sure that what we saw with Valve is definitely not going to be typical.

On top of that is the scenario that Valve painted in which future capabilities downloaded from Steam would not be optimized at all. So, then you get into an issue of support. Does anybody think that they team @ Valve is going to spend all of their time trying to figure out ways to circumvent nVidia's bad performance? Nope.

So, that issue will continue to be problematic for nVidia going into the future. In fact, I see this being a battle that nVidia will not be able to win at all. The hardware is a problem, the game developers have better things to do than to twiddle their thumbs trying to figure out why NV3x's performance stinks, the prospect of having to continually add more and more shader replacements is unrealistic....

But the bigger thing is the fact that absolutely none of this is relevant as to how the games will playl, as Gabe said last week. You can tweak the living crap out of the thing until the cows come home and it will not translate into real world performance. Of course, it will also end up looking pretty bad too.

hithere
09-15-03, 10:27 AM
The last nvidia card I owned was a TNT2 Ultra that I enjoyed immensely in just about every game I threw at it. I decided to go with ATI at the premier of the Radeon, at the time, the card had just been released and was getting great reviews for it's speed...before NV came out with the new det's . I still liked my card from an IQ standpoint, and for what I paid for it, it handled things very well, and although it was no match for a GF2 GTS, I found it aedequate to take me through the next year or so of gaming. I upgraded to an 8500 after that, and that took me through the next year. I didn't like the 8500 in terms of raw speed, and DVD was broken (poor gamma ramp) for a good portion of the time I owned it. For the most part, the card was a bust for me, but I liked the approximation technique ATI was using for aniso, and didn't so much care that the superior IQ of their super-sampling was slow ( i just didn't use AA). If you'd asked me back then, I would have said that Nvidia's drivers were the clear winner, and I frequently cast jelous eyes over to the nvidia camp who didn't go through the same driver issues I did.

There was a time, last year, where I was prepared to go back to nvidia. I waited for the next best thing from their camp, money in hand....But the news of the R300 came about, and the fact that Carmack was using it to demo Doom 3 was a big push for me. Once I cought sight of the 9500np to 9700 conversion, about nine months ago, I was sold. I gave reviewers enough time to spot driver bugs, and their reports were stellar. I spent $150 on the upgrade to the 9500np, applied the software hack, and have been in nirvana ever since. I haven't experienced any driver issues, no lock-ups, no nothing. Now, I use 2XAA and 16X quality aniso on every game, and I love it.

As the NV30 and 35 made thier debuts, it was only confirmed to me that I made the right choice. I had thought at first that it was just a bad design decision, and that the card would show its true power once drivers were cleaned up and DX9 games started to come out. But the news of the driver hacks and cheating in benchmarks killed it for me. Up until that time, I was telling people that nvidia was a valid choice and that you couldn't fault their drivers. I considered the FX just another choice, better in some respects and not better than others. But after the benchmark cheating....I just lost a ton of respect for nvidia. Thier drivers may be the "gold standard" for some, but clip planes and shader replacement do not reflect any gold standard to me. I'm not here to bash, I'm here to share my views, and these are my thoughts on the matter. I care about how the industry is going, and I care when developers can't do what they want with hardware that makes promises and doesn't deliver. I just want games to move forward as quickly as possible, and that requires that hardware do the same, and that each vendor offer a competative solution.

Right now, that's not happening. Nvidia tries to tell us that 3Dmark is bad because there's too much PS1.4 code in it, and not enough 2.0, then they turn around and say that another benchmark has too little 1.4 code in it, and too much 2.0. They seem to think I'm going to buy into the idea they can give us equal image quality so long as developers cater to their architecture. This means, of course, that if the developers want equal iq on both cards, they MUST use 1.4 and lower shaders, and MUST use 16-bit precision, or PP in DX9 shaders. Nvidia wants to convince me that it's okay that they re-write shader code for a benchmark in their drivers, never mind that they don't offer equal IQ, and never mind that they would have to, in the case of HL2, replace over 300 shaders, or require the developers to do the same at a cost to IQ. Maybe they were right about ATI's approximation technique for aniso, last year, but they're using it now, and worse when it comes to pixel shaders.

Yeah, I was ready, at one time, to go back to Nvidia. They simply had the upper hand in results, plain and simple. But now, they've given all that up with a bad design, and worse, they are trying their best to cover their mistake with bad benchmark numbers, trying to sell off the design so they can move on, trying to move as many cards out of warehouses before the games hit shelves and the performance is under the microscope. Valve knows this, they see what's really happening, and they realize, like I do, that this is one big mess that can't be glossed over with shader replacement in drivers. It's only going to get worse as the cards people paid top dollar for won't perform in the majority of games people chose them for.

Nvidia should have stuck to their Doom 3 guns, offered drivers that equaled the R300 in IQ, and simply bit the bullet with lower prices for lower performance until the next round of cards. Instead, they're trying to sell us on a lie, and move cards at a higher price than they're worth, using deception to cast them in a better light. They're selling out the future of their company by doing so, and no, I won't sit here and hand them the "love" this thread is looking for. As Nvidia fans, you guys should be ashamed you aren't calling it like it is, and perhaps saving Nvidia's reputation by making them deliver truth in advertising.

Joe DeFuria
09-15-03, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Scott@Bjorn3D
[B]Owning Bjorn 3D I have alot of NVIDIA cards and lately alot of ATI cards. I am still running 5900U even though I have a 9800PRO 256MB sitting on my shelf.

You haven't said why though.

I will wait till I actaully have a game that does not work on my machine before I put the ATI product in to play.

Even if the ATI product plays them better? (Or is that not your experience?)

This is not intended tobe a bash or a flame...I am just looking for your honest assesment. ;)

Moose
09-15-03, 10:50 AM
Wow!

Nice post Hithere!!

You nailed my feelings exactly.

I'm not even sure I'm willing to give them a chance on the NV40 though. They have gone so far to deceive everyone this time around I don't know how anyone could trust ANYTHING they say anymore.

I'll buy ATI's next card and give Nvidia a cycle to clean up their act before I start considering their cards again.

NickSpolec
09-15-03, 10:54 AM
Yes, let's look on the bright side of things when it comes down to Nvidia.

Like Nvidia's sheer passion and determination to cheat and hack performance.

Let's not focus on the cheating and hacking part. Let's focus on the passion and determination part.

Dazz
09-15-03, 11:16 AM
Yeah but due to the extra time needed to add 12/16bit smaller compaines just won't have the cash to optimize their games for the FX cards due to time restrictions and the extra cost needed to pay the developers, it took 5x longer to do that then regular DX9, 5x longer thats ALOT and ALOT of cash, i an't taking about hunderds but thousands of dollers. They would have to sell 3000+ games just to make up for the costs of the FX pathway! Sure you pay 50 bux for a game but how much does the developer get? Not much at all.

vitocorleone
09-15-03, 11:19 AM
It'd be nice if nvidia got their heads out of their arses (they're reminding me of the RIAA in some ways) and started being engineering leaders again instead of the marketing department spin lackies they seem to have turned into.

"nvidiots" - please be aware you are asking for a lot when you essentially ask others to forgive nvidia... If you don't know your recent graphics card history, do some searches of nvnews and rage3d and see how kindly "nvidiots" treated the ati fans and how much forgiveness was shown to ati when ati screwed up (though I don't remember them being so asinine about their mistakes).

Ah well. Here's to nvidia! (my laptop has an nvidia chip in it that lets me play UT2003, even though my desktop has always been ati)

Sazar
09-15-03, 11:21 AM
I like nvidia coz they gave me cyber boobies ( :drooling: dawn :drooling: )

oh.. and the gf4 ti series...

Dazz
09-15-03, 11:26 AM
Why bother with cyber boobies when you can have the real thing :)

Deathlike2
09-15-03, 11:29 AM
My GF3 continues to serve me well.. as that was the best card at the time when I got my system (the Radeon 8500 was still pretty poor on the driver support at the time)... at least this card IS DX8 compliant...

Though, I still have a few beefs with it...

1) Horrible lighting anomolies in one game...

2) The GF4 has fixed the "Quake sky texture compression problem"

3) It's a crippled GF3 compared to the Xbox version (the Xbox version has 2 pixel/vertex shaders I think... compared to the desktop GF3)

4) The 23.11/23.12/27.42 drivers on Win98SE/ME totally caused BSODs on my system... forcing me to upgrade to Win2k to resolve those problems (and a good upgrade it was too)

Otherwise, it's an OK card... but you won't catch me dead using Quincuix

creedamd
09-15-03, 11:45 AM
I loved my gf3 vanilla, I could not believe seeing nature for the first time, I had expected great things from that, well you know what has happened since then, but this is an Nvidia Love thread so I will leave it at that.

saturnotaku
09-15-03, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Deathlike2
The GF4 has fixed the "Quake sky texture compression problem"


Actually it didn't. It was fixed on the GF FX, but the GF4 Ti still suffers from this problem. :(

digitalwanderer
09-15-03, 11:47 AM
I was at my local PC show when I saw an Abit Silura 64Mb GF2 T400 (mx400 with tv-out) for $80us and decided to pick it up to see what all the nVidia hub-bub was about since I'd never owned one before.

It was amazing! I had a Radeon DDR OEM in Blue which had a Celeron 1Ghz in her and a PIII800 in Bubbles with the GF2 T400 in her and they both cracked 3K 3dm2k1se marks the same night....I used to LOVE benchy-racing 'em since the systems were so damned close.

I got LittleZ (64Mb Leadtek GF3 heavily modded, 240/530 ) off a friend used for $100 and still count it as among me favorite gaming cards ever. It took me to a whole 'nother level of gameplay and it didn't do anything but constantly impress me. I got a 64Mb 8500 retail a little later, but I went back to my GF3 since I just liked how it gamed better. :)

I picked up a Gainward GF4 ti4400 not long ago that I really liked. I modded it a bit and got her to 400/702 stable and the thing was fast! I actually could run some games with a little bit of AA & AF and still get decent framerates. :D

But I gave the GF3 to a friend who didn't have as good a card, and I traded the GF4 for an MSI K7N2-L mobo which is now in Bubbles...the 9700 is still the best card I've ever used and the most groundbreaking in terms of performance upgrades I've ever seen.

(I still have the Abit though, it's just too sweet a little card for me to get rid of and it's kind of nostalgic for me....plus my son loves it to death in his PC Boomer and I'm gonna have to get him something good pretty soon so I can pass the GF2 down to me daughter... ;) )

I have a lot of happy memories of nVidia, just not many lately. :(

ChrisRay
09-15-03, 11:58 AM
If you want Nvidia to stick around. And Just cant buy there Graphic cards. Do What I did. Buy a Motherboard. Supporting Nvidia doesnt neccasarily mean you have to buy there graphics card.

Main concern is Nvidia stays around to be competitive.

Sazar
09-15-03, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Dazz
Why bother with cyber boobies when you can have the real thing :)

I'm looking for positives.. ok :D

Kev1
09-15-03, 12:05 PM
Running almost 2 yrs now everyday overclocked to Ti 500 speeds and it plays games great (@ 1024 x 768, 32 bit color, no AA/AF).

My NForce 2 mobo is pretty good too :)