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View Full Version : OMG.. It actually gets Worse???


Hellbinder
09-18-03, 02:11 AM
Yes.. More info regarding HL2 and Nvidia hardware. This is Just flat harsh. I had not personally realized that some of HL2's effects were tied to DX9 features that Nvidia does not even have support for (Currently). Its the same ones I have Quoted here before. FLoating point Render Targets etc...

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7957

Meaning that even when HL2 is running full Quality (not mixed mode) it is never actually giving you many of the High Dynamic range effects. Thus its still doing less work, with less overall results.

Is there anyone left out there who still does not understand why Valve went with ATi?

Give that thread a careful read.

Skynet
09-18-03, 03:02 AM
....reading now....
:eek:

Hanners
09-18-03, 03:06 AM
Yep, I mentioned about HDR not working properly on GeForceFX cards in one of the Half Life 2 threads here and nobody believed me, I'd been meaning to point out Dave Baumann's comments on the issue but never got round to it.

raysusan
09-18-03, 06:18 AM
did i see a same thread in rage3d??:rolleyes:

kruiser
09-18-03, 06:27 AM
in gf4 days wasn't there an issue with regards ps 1.4?

Edge
09-18-03, 06:45 AM
Yeah, I think I've heard about this before. Theoreticly FX cards could be made to work with it, but the current hardware is a bit broken for it so it will probably never be fixed. Though personally, I was a bit underwhelmed by their recent HDR effect demo. I mean the light streaks looked great from a distance, but when you walk into them they cut off like they're made of a single polygon or something. I expected it to be a true volumetric effect (hell, Unreal did it, why can't HL2?). Oh, and did the specularity of the roof just look...off? I mean I haven't seen many roofs in real life that are made totally of metal like that, but it seemed like light was shimmering off of it wrong, almost like it was too clean (seems like it should have been much dirtier). I think it would've looked much better if they cut down on the effect a bit. Oh well, I'm just nitpicking here, I hope in the main game they use the effects a bit more accurately. Anyone know how much the effects will actually be used in the game? So far I haven't seen any HDR effects in the gameplay footage they've shown (though I may just not be recognising the HDR effects).

Though I wonder how big of a performence hit this stuff incurs. On FX cards it would probably be almost unbearable (if it worked, that is), but how much would it slow down a 9600 card? I was suprised to see that heavy DX9 effects even slow a 9800 card down by about %35 in TR:AOD. I'm almost starting to wonder if even ATI cards will eventually have problems with slow down if developers start adding a LARGE amount of DX9 effects into games (and remember that TR:AOD and HL2 are only first generation DX9 games). They sure do seem to be pushing a LOT more DX9 effects then DX8 ever did...

saturnotaku
09-18-03, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by kruiser
in gf4 days wasn't there an issue with regards ps 1.4?

The GeForce4 never supported PS1.4, but considering that the only thing at the time that used it was an ATI tech demo no one really paid attention.

StealthHawk
09-18-03, 06:51 AM
Hellbinder,

You're getting slow, man! This is days old news :D

edit: Discussion (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=193906#post193906)- from 9/13 :p

Slappi
09-18-03, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Yes.. More info regarding HL2 and Nvidia hardware. This is Just flat harsh. I had not personally realized that some of HL2's effects were tied to DX9 features that Nvidia does not even have support for (Currently). Its the same ones I have Quoted here before. FLoating point Render Targets etc...

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7957

Meaning that even when HL2 is running full Quality (not mixed mode) it is never actually giving you many of the High Dynamic range effects. Thus its still doing less work, with less overall results.

Is there anyone left out there who still does not understand why Valve went with ATi?

Give that thread a careful read.


Hellbinder :mad: , I have someone here I want you to meet... :D This is Life!

Hellbinder :mad:
Life :D

I think you two should spend some quality time together :kiss:

Maybe even have a good time :beer:

Or even if you're into that sort of thing have at it

Hellbinder :spank: Life


Whatever you two do just get back together and remember nVidia isn't your enemy it is a company that sells a product.

Morrow
09-18-03, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Meaning that even when HL2 is running full Quality (not mixed mode) it is never actually giving you many of the High Dynamic range effects. Thus its still doing less work, with less overall results.

Time to clarify some things:

First: All GFFXs support HDRL in hardware but the drivers are currently not certified to render HDRL through FP render targets in DX9. There are still other ways to do it in DX9 but unfortunately valve likes to go the render targets way...

Secondly: HDR is possibly with either half-precision (16-bit) or full-precision (32-bit). So, when choosing nvidia's mixed mode approach it's possible to do HDR with either 16-bit FP or 32-bit FP.

PS water effects like they are used in HL2 do not show any major IQ difference between 16-bit, 24-bit or 32-bit FP but HDRL (or generally light based rendering (fog, smoke, glare, lens flares, overbrightness or HDR in general) suffers from noticeably IQ degradation when using lower precision.

HDR will be available in HL2 for FX cards as soon as MS and nvidia have found an agreement on this issue for DX9 and valve has released HDR support for the source engine.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When nvidia designed the nv3x architecture, their idea was to offer an optimal mixed mode architecture: 16-bit FP for shaders where performance is more important and 32-bit FP for shaders where image quality is more important (This is the way Doom3 and HL2 have been designed to be run on FX cards).

But unfortunately nvidia made two mistakes: They didn't believe initially that MS would fix the precision minimum for DX9 to 24-bit and that ATI would not only support this "legal" DX9 minimum but also offer dedicated shader cores wherethou the FXes must "emulate" shader instructions.

So, concerning PS 2.0 ATI has the undeniable advantage for the current hardware generation. But this doesn't mean that everyone with a FX card should now sell his card and buy a Raddy but it will be more reasonable to wait until valve releases the HL2 benchmark on the 30th September and see how HL2 performs with official 5x.xx drivers on the different systems everyone owns. Even if you are not satisfied after that you can still sell your card and buy a Radeon before the full version ships...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a completely different matter:
Someone made a post on the above mentioned beyond3d thread about Doom3 supporting HDR which is not true. Doom3 supports a DPS (Detail Preserving Simplification) method which basically just "puts" an high-detail photo on the real-time rendered low-detail model and thus preserving the high-polygon information of the original 3d model. Actually the poster got confused with the HL2 developper videos showing shaders building a normal map of a wall with high-detail and the process how models in Doom3 are build of high-res models.

A DPS model will like a HDR model reflect the lighting and shadow changes if the lightsource changes its position but in contrast to HDR, the DPS method does not use shaders but instead bump-mapping to do the job.

Doom3 in any way doesn't need HDR because of its dark environments. It's all about shadows and real-life lighting.

digitalwanderer
09-18-03, 08:45 AM
Yeah, I had noticed that too...that's why I've been pushing the fact that there is going to be a large visual difference 'tween how ATi runs HL2 and how nVidia's cards do, HDR is just what makes it so breathtaking to me. :)

rth
09-18-03, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Slappi
Whatever you two do just get back together and remember nVidia isn't your enemy it is a company that sells a product.

I own an ATI card atm. so nvidia became my enemy when it does things like getting EA and Stalker devs to deactivate my card's abilities.

Hellbinder
09-18-03, 11:51 AM
Morrow...

That is interesting except for the Truth that Nvidia has very poor FP16 performance as well. which completely Blows this comon explanation as to "Why Nvidia currently sux with PS2.0" out of the water.

You know as well as I do that they are Forcing FX12 and other *optimizations* to even get remotely reasonable performance.

digitalwanderer
09-18-03, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Morrow...

That is interesting except for the Truth that Nvidia has very poor FP16 performance as well. which completely Blows this comon explanation as to "Why Nvidia currently sux with PS2.0" out of the water.

You know as well as I do that they are Forcing FX12 and other *optimizations* to even get remotely reasonable performance.
They don't really care about the technicalities HB, they're too used to believing whatever nVidia tells 'em. :(

I'm not even bothering to argue the point, in a couple of weeks the evidence of the game itself will be undeniable. :)

Moose
09-18-03, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by rth
I own an ATI card atm. so nvidia became my enemy when it does things like getting EA and Stalker devs to deactivate my card's abilities.

speaking of which...

Can anyone think of a reason that Truform doesn't work with Madden 2004 yet worked perfectly in Madden 2003???

I'm getting suspicious that its because of the TWIMTBP program.

Morrow
09-18-03, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Morrow...

That is interesting except for the Truth that Nvidia has very poor FP16 performance as well. which completely Blows this comon explanation as to "Why Nvidia currently sux with PS2.0" out of the water.

You know as well as I do that they are Forcing FX12 and other *optimizations* to even get remotely reasonable performance.

I wasn't talking about my personal opinion on the whole matter. I was talking about nvidia's initial design choice offering this mixed-mode performance.

Remember that I wrote in my previous post that both 16-bit FP as also 32-bit FP are "emulated" on the FX. Don't expect awesome performance with any emulated work! This was the second error I was talking about... but maybe I didn't made that too clear in my first post.

I'm aware that most shader instructions are converted into FX12 with current drivers. The nv3x architecture is doomed concerning PS 2.0 instructions. For the rest it's not worse nor better than the R3x0.

Hellbinder
09-18-03, 02:35 PM
Hellbinder , I have someone here I want you to meet... This is Life!

Hellbinder
Life

I think you two should spend some quality time together

Maybe even have a good time

Or even if you're into that sort of thing have at it

Hellbinder Life


Whatever you two do just get back together and remember nVidia isn't your enemy it is a company that sells a product.

Guess what.. this is my hobby. Which most people consider a hobby as part of their *LIFE*.

Nvidia is the enemy of all Gamers who donít want to have to own an Nvidia card to play games. which might be their HOBBIE as well. ATi is simply following a standard they are not pulling these tactics. Tactics which hurt everyone except ONE COMPANY.

There are a lot of things that make up part of life. This is no different than people who play softball or Golf.

BTW.. Speaking of which. Raise your hand if you have Climbed Mt. Fuji in Japan.

/Raises hand

I have. Not to mention been all over the world and experienced lots of different things.

Donít think you know everything about an individual just because you donít like what they post.

digitalwanderer
09-18-03, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Guess what.. this is my hobby. Which most people consider a hobby as part of their *LIFE*.

Nvidia is the enemy of all Gamers who donít want to have to own an Nvidia card to play games. which might be their HOBBIE as well. ATi is simply following a standard they are not pulling these tactics. Tactics which hurt everyone except ONE COMPANY.

There are a lot of things that make up part of life. This is no different than people who play softball or Golf.

BTW.. Speaking of which. Raise your hand if you have Climbed Mt. Fuji in Japan.

/Raises hand

I have. Not to mention been all over the world and experienced lots of different things.

Donít think you know everything about an individual just because you donít like what they post.
And I'll whole-heartedly agree with that one as I get a little tired of people telling me to get a life just because I happen to be passionate about my hobby too. (Not to mention the irony of backing HB in a reply to Slappi like he parodied me doing all the time too... ;) )

goofer456
09-18-03, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
And I'll whole-heartedly agree with that one as I get a little tired of people telling me to get a life just because I happen to be passionate about my hobby too. (Not to mention the irony of backing HB in a reply to Slappi like he parodied me doing all the time too... ;) )

Get a life and stop fighting with your wife because you spend to much time online:D

/Me pulls away the wife from the keyboard