UK, Germany, France agree on EU Army

[2fast4u]

in ****ing credible. i didnt expect this to happen at all but it seems in terms of defense policies germany, france and britain seem to be on the same stance. i never thought blair would have the balls to say something like this.

Chancellor Schroeder: The three of us think it is important for Europe, for strengthening its ability to act but also ...to work in partnership with the United States. The point is to improve Europe's military capabilities. We are firmly convinced that this will strengthen Nato. Nato is indispensable for Europe's security. In this respect, all talk about ESDP (European Security and Defence Policy) perhaps being aimed at Nato is absurd.

Prime Minister Blair: I believe everybody realises that this issue is best brought forward in a spirit of co-operation and mutual recognition. This includes that the issues of European defence and Nato belong together and are not at all in conflict with each other.

id say thats a step in the right direction regarding europe uniting and becoming stronger. of course in terms of iraq theres still major disagreement.

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3125728.stm)

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by 2fast4u
id say thats a step in the right direction regarding europe uniting and becoming stronger.


only if you believe that is a good thing.. blair is dragging the uk deeper into europe with consent of its people, you'd have think he would have learned after iraq.. scary thing is the only real alternative these days is the liberal demo-prats :mad:

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by sytaylor
only if you believe that is a good thing

as you know i do.

[1stFlight]

Originally posted by sytaylor
only if you believe that is a good thing.. blair is dragging the uk deeper into europe with consent of its people, you'd have think he would have learned after iraq.. scary thing is the only real alternative these days is the liberal demo-prats :mad:

Umm, maybe you hadn't noticed but the UK is techincally considered part of Europe...

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
Umm, maybe you hadn't noticed but the UK is techincally considered part of Europe...

its a soverign nation which is a member of europe.. not a european state..

we're in the trading union, and share some europe wide "directives", but as of right now he UK can block anything the EU wishes to impose upon us.. so if you "consider" us a part or not, we're a member, not a jigsaw peice.

2Fast: Still haven't given me a good reason why you do

[vampireuk]

Well it's his view that it is a good thing, as far as you are concerned you are flat out against a united europe so there will be no way to give you a plus point as you would dismiss it as a reason why you would not like it.

[sytaylor]

I accept that its his view.. I have no beef with that, I'm just waiting some form of explanation why it is so good, instead of insistance that its good.. or is it one of those, "don't know why its good its just good cos i think its good and to conclude its good.." efforts that im yet to be brainwashed into? :confused:

I'm only against a united europe because of the reasons i have listed before, not because of some priomordial fear that it would go against what i "should believe"

edit: All im questioning is the reasoning, not his right to hold that opinion. Im pretty sure he's well aware of that though, and until im offered evidence to the contrary i will continue to take my stance / argue any points with reasoning. I do not think its fair that you're comback is always that i'm too biased to argue, when it is yourself who is not offering any evidence.

[vampireuk]

My argument was not that you are too biased, everybody is like that ;)

When somebody is dead set against something it's harder to debate about it. I don't see many people brainwashed into this, I personally feel that a united Europe is a good thing, thats my view and not some brainwashing devices:D

[DaveW]

Originally posted by 2fast4u
in ****ing credible. i didnt expect this to happen at all but it seems in terms of defense policies germany, france and britain seem to be on the same stance. i never thought blair would have the balls to say something like this.


I did. Although the UK often appears to distance itself from Europe to support the USA, its the UK who often pays the bill on projects for European military independance from the USA, such as Galileo - the european equivalent of the American controlled GPS system, which european forces currently rely on.

Im not sure of the motive behind it, but perhaps the UK government feels that a few decades down the road the global climate may be such that the UK and USA interests conflict and the UK will not able to rely on the military support of the USA.

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by DaveW

Im not sure of the motive behind it, but perhaps the UK government feels that a few decades down the road the global climate may be such that the UK and USA interests conflict and the UK will not able to rely on the military support of the USA.

likely a reason behind it. i knew blair was more of a fan of european unification, but not of emancipation from the usa. his behaviour in that regard seemed rather pathetic.

edit: All im questioning is the reasoning, not his right to hold that opinion. Im pretty sure he's well aware of that though, and until im offered evidence to the contrary i will continue to take my stance / argue any points with reasoning.

i indeed havent written down alot on that subject. mostly due to me being a lazy bitch. might as well take the chance..

1) europe has the unavoidable need to emancipate itself from the united states. the current conflicts are just the tip of the iceberg in my opinion. the only way to achieve this is to achieve greater unification in political, economical and military areas. im well aware of the fact that this means confrontation.

2) the eu is about to welcome no less than 10 new states into its union. the highest responsibility for us is to integrate them into western europe with our democratic values.

3) to achieve unification in the minds, europe needs a unified currency. the intersting aspect about the countires resisting the euro so far is that they practically have the euro already. take the swedish crown for example: the currency is incorporated with the euro's exchange rate so far that it can only diversify up to +- 0.2% from its rate. all we are talking about is a matter of whats printed on the damn notes here. (which kinda put the referndum about the euro in sweden ad absurdum) as for the situation about other currencies im not sure, i just know of this particular example.

4) i dont share you concern about national identity and values fading. due to our strong national states and territorial integrity we will always keep our individual lifestyles and languages in my opinion. yet: we have the chance for a european identity.

5) economically we are already benefiting from open borders. as you know im not too knowledgeable in this subject, you on the other hand are so ill leave the reasoning to you.

6) i see the risk of europe becoming to bureaucratic and sluggish in its actions to larger the union will get. we already experience this unthinkable bull**** regarding the subsidies to farmers (mostly due to frances positions here) and coal (due to germanys positions) which has to go sooner or later. further our eu parliament badly needs to be reformed especially in sight of the new members.

as for a constitution (will happen) or even a "superstate" (wont happen but for the sake of argument) thats mainly a formal act which can only benefit us in foreign politics.

ok, that was alot. maybe that clears up my reasoning. your turn :)

[druga runda]

If UK stays out it will become another marginal state, in next 50 years it will fall behind Russia, China, India, Japan, EU maybe even Brasil in influnce WW so it will become a marginal player with all the economic/political "benefits" that marginalisation brings... I doubt that UK can afford this to itself, the I doubt that Britan could be content to play the role of big Switzerland politically and of eastern Europe economically :)

Within EU it will be a part of the biggest single market in the world (ok dependable how China and India develop )+ it will be one of the big three countries that actually make the differece within it - together with Germany and France they could be the new AXIS :lol:

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by druga runda
together with Germany and France they could be the new AXIS :lol:

LOL be careful with that kinda vocabulary ;)

[druga runda]

Originally posted by 2fast4u
LOL be careful with that kinda vocabulary ;)

axis like the one which EU turns around not neccessarily just another axis of evil :lol2:

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by druga runda
axis like the one which EU turns around not neccessarily just another axis of evil :lol2:

i thought you were refering to the axis powers ;)

[sytaylor]

ahh beautiful reasoning :)

Originally posted by 2fast4u
1) europe has the unavoidable need to emancipate itself from the united states. the current conflicts are just the tip of the iceberg in my opinion. the only way to achieve this is to achieve greater unification in political, economical and military areas. im well aware of the fact that this means confrontation.


This can be done without a constiution and certainly without a superstate, lets not forget blair loves to usher things in under the carpet when he has a really big something else to say...

2) the eu is about to welcome no less than 10 new states into its union. the highest responsibility for us is to integrate them into western europe with our democratic values.

exactly theyre joining our trading union, which is a good thing and benefits everyone, I have no problems here

3) to achieve unification in the minds, europe needs a unified currency. the intersting aspect about the countires resisting the euro so far is that they practically have the euro already. take the swedish crown for example: the currency is incorporated with the euro's exchange rate so far that it can only diversify up to +- 0.2% from its rate. all we are talking about is a matter of whats printed on the damn notes here. (which kinda put the referndum about the euro in sweden ad absurdum) as for the situation about other currencies im not sure, i just know of this particular example.

Look closer to home, in your own instance germany are flailing with rock bottom inflation rates, desperatley trying to surge their economy, while ireland want to change the europe wide interest rate because they are suffering at the hands of germanys poor performance.

4) i dont share you concern about national identity and values fading. due to our strong national states and territorial integrity we will always keep our individual lifestyles and languages in my opinion. yet: we have the chance for a european identity.

Well, I'm not british I'm english, which is only the same as how the scottish and the welsh crave for their identity, why can't I have mine? As time continues on, I'm not european I'm an english man who lives within europe (which is a good thing, but not defining of my culture)

5) economically we are already benefiting from open borders. as you know im not too knowledgeable in this subject, you on the other hand are so ill leave the reasoning to you.

Benefits are outweighed by the defecits posted against point 3..

6) i see the risk of europe becoming to bureaucratic and sluggish in its actions to larger the union will get. we already experience this unthinkable bull**** regarding the subsidies to farmers (mostly due to frances positions here) and coal (due to germanys positions) which has to go sooner or later. further our eu parliament badly needs to be reformed especially in sight of the new members.

as for a constitution (will happen) or even a "superstate" (wont happen but for the sake of argument) thats mainly a formal act which can only benefit us in foreign politics.

The EU is sluggish, its getting to almost UN like proportions, thats because its full of failed local poloticians who make europe wide decisions about our future.. the trading union is a good idea just poorly implimented.

Now to quote an old post..


Why is it that people think brussels setting inflation rates and mortgage rates for the whole of europe is good? Its bad enough there being one throughout the UK. The housing market in the Uk is in a very different state to other parts of europe.

For example: Why should italy get (relativley) cheap (for them) mortgage rate, when in the UK that rate would be extortionate because the same house would cost 5 times as much! That would be leaving me out of pocket because i live in the UK.. which is not fair.

Look at the economic indexes of countries in the euro, and look at ours. The UK is performing far stronger because its currency is not handicapped. Why would handicapping any other areas of the countries finance be good for us? Fair enough if we were a fledging economy struggling to survive, we could leech. The fact is however we are the type of nation that other countries could leech from.

What about civil liberties? The UK and the rest of europe have some very different laws, why should i give up the advantages of being a citizen of the UK?

From a business standpoint british businesses have (somehow, despite blair) a reasonabley strong export market, with the United States in particular.. An EU superstate could quite easily jeopadise all this economic activity by scrapping individual nations trade agreements (since we'd be one superstate in this "good idea").

With so many nations at so many different levels for a phenomenal number of reasons, simply shoving them together would cause chaos. This is not like pulling together a few states who have been around for 50 years.. Europe is massivley populated and has existing structures which should not be knocked down for what a few believe to be a "good idea". If we were all developing nations it would be a different story.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck. Not a golden goose.

Trying to make your economic policies fit your ideals is fool hardy when you neglect to consider the impact it will have. If you paid £3 into a bank and got £2 back would you stay with it? Because thats what the UK is getting now, imagine how much worse that would become if we had to fully shoulder the weight of europe!

Right now failed domestic poloticians run into europe and make policies that govern our future, so its already flawed. Show me one possible way it can get better.

(Ok this one is from a website but still valid). In the Euro, Ireland wants to increase interets rates to stem their inflation, but the EU won't allow that while Germanys economy (perhaps the msot important of the ones in the euro) is stagnating...

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by vampireuk
When somebody is dead set against something it's harder to debate about it.

See above post, I think I have good reasons for my decisions, as apposed to being dead set

[vampireuk]

Under the laws of the glorious motherland you will be disapeared for the glory of comrade stalin...nobody heard that :eek2:

lets not forget blair loves to usher things in under the carpet when he has a really big something else to say...

And hopefully the British public will have voted his ass out so somebody else lets the people decide. I think it is a good idea but I'm not a brutal dictator just jet:D

And I can't see anybody complaining about a EU army. It would take all the strain off our overstretched forces and also mean our troops get some kickass kit for once.:D

[2fast4u]

This can be done without a constiution and certainly without a superstate, lets not forget blair loves to usher things in under the carpet when he has a really big something else to say...

by looking back at the sometimes pathetic picture of the eu during the iraq conflict i might disagree. we have 10 heads and 15 opinions usually. if we would be able to settle our differences in opinions in lets say a unified euro parliament and speak with one voice in the end - now thats a sign for strength.

as for the constitution .. like i pointed out, its a formal act. nothing beyond that.

Look closer to home, in your own instance germany are flailing with rock bottom inflation rates, desperatley trying to surge their economy, while ireland want to change the europe wide interest rate because they are suffering at the hands of germanys poor performance.

indeed. if you take a closer look at germany it becomes rather hard to blame the euro for it. we are currently suffering extremely from delayed reforms regarding the social programs, retirement, health, education and taxes which the different governments have been avoiding to carry out for maybe a decade. in combination of a weak world economy AND our domestic problems its more of a home made mess that was created there.

Well, I'm not british I'm english, which is only the same as how the scottish and the welsh crave for their identity, why can't I have mine? As time continues on, I'm not european I'm an english man who lives within europe (which is a good thing, but not defining of my culture)

no arguments here. thats a personal stance that has to be respected. personally i feel primarily as a european and only secondary as german.

uh .. already answered to alot of that old post. especially the thing regarding civil liberties is a non-issue.

that post has been sitting here for almost 2 hours waiting to be finished now. busy day at work.

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by 2fast4u
by looking back at the sometimes pathetic picture of the eu during the iraq conflict i might disagree. we have 10 heads and 15 opinions usually. if we would be able to settle our differences in opinions in lets say a unified euro parliament and speak with one voice in the end - now thats a sign for strength.

<snip>

indeed. if you take a closer look at germany it becomes rather hard to blame the euro for it. we are currently suffering extremely from delayed reforms regarding the social programs, retirement, health, education and taxes which the different governments have been avoiding to carry out for maybe a decade. in combination of a weak world economy AND our domestic problems its more of a home made mess that was created there.


Hence the reason the EU is usually regarded as a gassing shop, lots of talk, lots of money, not many results.. making it more powerful wouldn't change that anytime soon..

Germany having a weak economy is not down to just the euro you are quite correct, but its impact across other nations in the Euro is undoubtable.. Thats my point.. The uk continues to, and shall continue to get less out of europe than it puts in.. fortunatley there are some economic benefits to this while we're a trading union. Merge our finances and you create a problem.

Merging our armed forces is a different matter

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by sytaylor
Hence the reason the EU is usually regarded as a gassing shop, lots of talk, lots of money, not many results.. making it more powerful wouldn't change that anytime soon..

you cant make it more powerful just like that. the reason why the eu isnt that powerful is out constant disagrement. dont get me wrong, i love disagreement, protest and arguments, but in some issues it hurts if theres no way in hell to find a compromise.

Germany having a weak economy is not down to just the euro you are quite correct, but its impact across other nations in the Euro is undoubtable.. Thats my point.. The uk continues to, and shall continue to get less out of europe than it puts in.. fortunatley there are some economic benefits to this while we're a trading union. Merge our finances and you create a problem.

fair enough.

Merging our armed forces is a different matter

indeed.

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by 2fast4u
it hurts if theres no way in hell to find a compromise.


..and this will almost alwyas be the case without either smaller nations being steppted on, larger nations suffering at the expense of the smaller ones.. or the current option: a gassing shop..

buddying us up can't possibly help the situation

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by sytaylor
..and this will almost alwyas be the case without either smaller nations being steppted on, larger nations suffering at the expense of the smaller ones.. or the current option: a gassing shop..

the joy of compromise, isnt it? thats just the way it works.

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by 2fast4u
the joy of compromise, isnt it? thats just the way it works.

which brings us right back to where we started.. albeit in a different angle.. what difference would formalising all this control of europe make? besides make a bad system worse? all i can see is that it would provide someone with the power to equal the USA, but at what expense?

[vampireuk]

Merging our armed forces is a different matter

It is, but it is a benefit to this:p

Access to different training methods and the best equipment instead of the crap we use now.

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by sytaylor
all i can see is that it would provide someone with the power to equal the USA, but at what expense?

political weight?