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Martrox
09-23-03, 07:39 AM
At Computex, we have had to chance to sit down and chat with a few tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3 video card manufacturers, all of which have given some interesting comments on the fiasco bubbling around the industry. First of all, the majority [regardless of which graphic solution they produce] have told us that they believe that ATI is not cheating. They believe that if NVIDIA requires certain questionable optimizations in their drivers and ATI does not all while still leading benchmarks, the consumer is going to catch on very fast about who they should choose for their next graphics solution purchase. Additionally, most of these manufacturers are sure that this will play out very soon. We have been informed by manufacturers that NVIDIA was back in Taiwan about 3 weeks prior to Computex, to supposedly answer for their actions and reassure consumers. This was strategic move an anticipation of AquaMark 3 and Half-Life 2 benchmarks that were going to pop up soon. The basic content of the discussion between NVIDIA and their respective manufacturers were to reassure them that they were doing fine and to expect everything fixed with newer and better drivers. However, those traditionally considered NVIDIA strongholds told us that they are seriously discussing the possibilities of ATI internally. Despite this, it seems that the executive management of such companies have decided to wait and see what fully materializes from the controversy, basically, if NVIDIA can deliver on these promises. If they can’t, they risk alienating the manufacturers, which they partnered with.

http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.html?i=1880

realODDSMAN
09-23-03, 07:58 AM
The manufacturers are pretty smart and have caught on. But sometimes they dont have enough money to switch. They can only go where their rails take them.:(

Hanners
09-23-03, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by realODDSMAN
The manufacturers are pretty smart and have caught on. But sometimes they dont have enough money to switch. They can only go where their rails take them.:(

The good news is that the simple fact that the manufacturers are thinking this way might be enough to make nVidia start to sit up and take notice.

jimbob0i0
09-23-03, 08:36 AM
Well NV don't produce any of their own hardwrae for teh retail outlets - if the likes of Asus and Co. decide to switch there will be precisely zero income from the gfx division - no doubt that will make them notice - as well as the financial publications too with this sort of manouver - and that will severly hurt stock price - ouch!

Ruined
09-23-03, 08:38 AM
I still don't understand what Nvidia is hoping to accomplish here. Unless the Det50's *do* magically make everything run ultra-fast, Nvidia will look like they have lied to even their best card partners now. I know they can't tell them "sorry, the cards suck, you guys are screwed," but I wouldn't continue building expectations for something that just appears impossible. :confused:

euan
09-23-03, 09:11 AM
All they need to do is remove the cheats, drop their prices, and bump their products down a level to where they belong. And, most importantly, just admit defeat for one lowly generation. How hard can it be?

digitalwanderer
09-23-03, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by euan
All they need to do is remove the cheats, drop their prices, and bump their products down a level to where they belong. And, most importantly, just admit defeat for one lowly generation. How hard can it be?
Pretty hard when you refuse to be #2 even if you are. :(

sxotty
09-23-03, 09:34 AM
I think it is clear enough they are #2, considering all that talk about something halucigenic and what not it is evident they knew they were #2 then, and it is only worse now.

Who was saying that new nforce drivers with the ide fix is coming out soon? Im looking forward to that.

TheOneKEA
09-23-03, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by euan
All they need to do is remove the cheats, drop their prices, and bump their products down a level to where they belong. And, most importantly, just admit defeat for one lowly generation. How hard can it be?

When you're #1 for so long, quite a bit of denial probably sets in. I'm sure that NVIDIA's CEO will probably catch on at last when the company starts bleeding money from the VPU division, and start LARTing the morons who come up with this crap.

I'm sure that sooner or later, they will HAVE to admit defeat. They'll fight it with the NV38, but sooner or later they just have to face reality.

Or risk going out of business :(

The Baron
09-23-03, 09:52 AM
I think NVIDIA knows the score with NV3x.

But, if NV38 is to be launched in October, do not expect NV40 until next year. If they fix its DX9 performance (which I have very few doubts about.. it may not be at R420 level, but it will be faster than R350, I'm pretty sure), NV40 could well be a big winner.

Time will tell.

Flavius
09-23-03, 10:45 AM
They ALREADY HAVE admitted defeat, in their classic PR way! Look at this quote from Computex I found!

"nVidia mentioned at the end that they hoped that people were not too upset that the GeForce range did not receive much attention. They hoped that this would show people that they are just not a GPU maker but a more diverse company with a bunch of new and exciting initiatives for the future."

Hahahaha! Sure... GPUs? What's that? Look at all the other great products we make! They are trying to distance themselves from the desktop GPU market because they know its a losing battle, especially if a 9800 MAXX comes out. What are they gonna do, put out a double dustbuster in response??! Hahaha!

The Baron
09-23-03, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Flavius
Hahahaha! Sure... GPUs? What's that? Look at all the other great products we make! They are trying to distance themselves from the desktop GPU market because they know its a losing battle, especially if a 9800 MAXX comes out. What are they gonna do, put out a double dustbuster in response??! Hahaha!
If you think a 9800 Maxx will ever come out, I've got some Worldcom stock to sell you.

Flavius
09-23-03, 10:59 AM
I said IF. I don't really think a 9800 MAXX will come out personally.

druga runda
09-23-03, 11:06 AM
defeat defeat...

the only fair solution would be manufacturers starting to produce all gfx boards the way they feel like with no restrictions like they do with motherboard chipsets ... and that's all... wasn't it Nvidia that started all those exclusivity pacts :rolleyes:

digitalwanderer
09-23-03, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by sxotty
Who was saying that new nforce drivers with the ide fix is coming out soon? Im looking forward to that.
Jimsomething said they were being WHQL certified right now and shouldn't be too long before they're out. (I'm guessing around the 30th...hell, everything else is happening that day! ;) )

Sazar
09-23-03, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
I think NVIDIA knows the score with NV3x.

But, if NV38 is to be launched in October, do not expect NV40 until next year. If they fix its DX9 performance (which I have very few doubts about.. it may not be at R420 level, but it will be faster than R350, I'm pretty sure), NV40 could well be a big winner.

Time will tell.

faster in terms of raw dx9 performance or faster in general terms (ie below dx9) ?

eesa
09-23-03, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
If you think a 9800 Maxx will ever come out, I've got some Worldcom stock to sell you.


as ridiculous as it sounds, I wouldn't totally count out sapphire. You never know. Still the chances are slim, but not impossible IMHO.

dare_devil
09-23-03, 12:19 PM
i dont care about my fx5900 ultra dx 9 perfomance anymore......
what can i do about it? if nvidia can make a miracle it would be good, but if they cant i dont mind also. i'll keep my fx5900 ultra until 2005 and grab a new card at thaht time with a mature PCI Express and Serial ATA 2. Longhorn seems to be cool also.

For 2004, maybe i just get a new pentium "prescott" and upgrade my memory. no graphic card yet.

digitalwanderer
09-23-03, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
If you think a 9800 Maxx will ever come out, I've got some Worldcom stock to sell you.
I don't know if I'd go that far Baron, I have the strangest feeling we really will see some type of R3xx MAXX before the end of next year. ;)

nelg
09-23-03, 12:44 PM
What troubles me about that article is that Anandtech seems to use language that obfuscates the issue intentionally. Read the first two paragraphs and imagine that you have no knowledge of the current issues surrounding the GFX series of cards......

N.B. The bold parts are added my me and are my opinion as to how it should have been said..
Well we are here at Computex, and the buzz surrounding NVIDIA and DX9 [particularly Half-Life 2] hasn’t let up. As a matter of fact, it is the hot topic of many under the table talks between video card manufacturers and their respective customers. Our latest mobile look into the latest and greatest for NVIDIA and ATI didn’t leave much room for argument on the DirectX 9 front (which is better ?). Meanwhile, the industry buzz is still debating about who has legitimate claim in this controversy. There are suggestions that ATI and Valve have been conspiring, and Valve specifically coded their image quality paths to ATI hardware (By whom other than nVidia?). This is really hard to validate since there are other DX9 games that show similar [though with less intense margins] results between NVIDIA and ATI hardware(isn't this the proof you are looking for?).

Due to all of this we turn back to the concept of our Forum articles: basically, inquiring about the thoughts and opinions of various manufacturers anonymously. While Half-Life 2 may be centralized toward the American market, DX9 is a concern for consumers, manufacturers, and programmers worldwide. Consumers are less likely to buy a certain graphic solution should he or she know that image quality and rendering abilities are inferior of its competitor. Those that have already chosen the “unfavorable” graphics solution will likely then be alienated. Manufacturers, therefore, are directly effected due to sales [or lack of] relating to the limitations of a graphic solution, in this case NDIVIA and ATI(why include ATI in this statement ?). Programmers, as we noted before, are frustrated on two different levels. First is the topic of resources, typically, developers have an optical frame per second range, which they try to hit on all graphic solutions. Regardless of the reasons behind it, ATI and NVIDIA graphic processing parts can’t hit the same frame per second range in an intensive image quality game, at least for now(should this not say that nVidia cards cannot reach the same performance as ATI ?). This means that to keep up to par with the competition, developers have resorted to coding special code paths for these frames per second ranges to be hit. Obviously, this means image quality settings need to be lowered and this directly points to our second conundrum: consumers not being able to enjoy the full DX9 experience the way the developer intended. Programmers are artists, and for this reason; they hate to see their effort and artistic talent go to waste. On the other hand, they also understand that not creating a special code path could possibly lead to low sales or even undercutting them.


(which is better ?)

Why all this pussy footing around ?

digitalwanderer
09-23-03, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by nelg
Why all this pussy footing around ?
Because Anand's sucks and they're trying to take the middle of the road on a black & white issue. :)

TheTaz
09-23-03, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Hanners
The good news is that the simple fact that the manufacturers are thinking this way might be enough to make nVidia start to sit up and take notice.

I'm fairly sure nVidia has noticed. Heh.

I mean... they went to Tiawan 3 weeks in advance to try to smooth thinks out with their partners before Computex started.

So yeah... they've noticed.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at NV HQ for the last couple weeks.... talk about "4 alarm fire!"

Though I really don't believe the Det 50's will be a magical "fix"... I WOULD be absolutely AMAZED if they were, especially since we all know that they will be "Heavily scrutinized" for cheating / Drastically lowering IQ.

I expect there will definetly be some lower IQ... but if they can manage to minimize it due to the JUST the precision problem, and not screw with Tri or AF filtering / clipping / etc., yet get a mass performance boost in DX9.... They will have accomplished a "magic fix", IMO.

Again... I doubt it can be done, given the Archetecture.

Taz

eesa
09-23-03, 03:09 PM
once you see asus going ati, then you know times have changed.

russo121
09-23-03, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by eesa
once you see asus going ati, then you know times have changed.

It's happening man!!!:D

From http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.html?i=1882

"...Unless something changes at the last minute, ASUS will be announcing the worldwide launch of ATI-based video cards. Add to that the mixed feelings on nForce3 and the fact that MSI, NVIDIA’s largest OEM and retail channel graphics manufacturer, is considering a move similar to ASUS, things look bad for NVIDIA. We’ll have more detailed information about these situations and products shortly..."

digitalwanderer
09-23-03, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by russo121
It's happening man!!!:D

From http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.html?i=1882

"...Unless something changes at the last minute, ASUS will be announcing the worldwide launch of ATI-based video cards. Add to that the mixed feelings on nForce3 and the fact that MSI, NVIDIA’s largest OEM and retail channel graphics manufacturer, is considering a move similar to ASUS, things look bad for NVIDIA. We’ll have more detailed information about these situations and products shortly..."
The Dig solemnly lifts his hands to his lips and does a really bad imitation of a trumpet playing a heart-wrenching rendition of "Taps".