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poursoul
09-29-03, 03:03 PM
:rolleyes: Here (http://www.ixbt-labs.com/articles2/radeon/sapphire-4.html)

Carfax
10-01-03, 03:25 AM
Hmm, I wonder why no one ever replied to this, and I don't know why you've got an eyeroll smily next to the link.

The benchmarks never included the 5900 Ultra, yet in most of the benchmarks the 5900 compares quite favorably to the 9800 Pro, and trounces its direct competitor the 9800..

StealthHawk
10-01-03, 04:18 AM
Originally posted by Carfax
Hmm, I wonder why no one ever replied to this, and I don't know why you've got an eyeroll smily next to the link.

The benchmarks never included the 5900 Ultra, yet in most of the benchmarks the 5900 compares quite favorably to the 9800 Pro, and trounces its direct competitor the 9800..

Yes but how many bugs or cheats are there :rolleyes:

Carfax
10-02-03, 07:11 AM
I'm willing to give nVidia the benefit of the doubt on this. I've owned no less than 6 nVidia cards, and they all served me well and had very good performance; far superior to any other manufacturer's offerings at the tim

Though I will say, IF Nvidia can indeed fix the FX's performance in DX9 via software, then that would be an amazing feat indeed!

Deathlike2
10-02-03, 11:22 AM
NVidia can fix FX's performance possibly... but IQ will suffer to some extent.

digitalwanderer
10-02-03, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Deathlike2
NVidia can fix FX's performance possibly... but IQ will suffer to some extent.
If by "some" you mean "a LOT" then I agree. :)

Tsunami
10-02-03, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
If by "some" you mean "a LOT" then I agree. :)
I'm gonna dissagree with that considering the amount of time Nvidia have had to optimize driver performance for the FX range it seems only fair to assume they have developed new methods in which performance can be improved without visual degredation.
hopefully:lol:

Deathlike2
10-02-03, 11:49 AM
I'm gonna dissagree with that considering the amount of time Nvidia have had to optimize driver performance for the FX range it seems only fair to assume they have developed new methods in which performance can be improved without visual degredation.

Honestly, if that were true, they should've spent that time WAY BACK WHEN, like during the Det FX series (and potentially the Det40 series)... they spent "optimizing" for 3DMark and not their compiler (for their shaders)

It's kinda "late" in the sense that they really should've started earlier.. as what is happening now is a result in "catching up to the competition"

Source:
http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/kirk_interview/page2.asp

To quote David Kirk:

I think the observation is when we first released GeForce FX we had not invested enough in the compilation and optimization technologies so we were not always generating very good programs for the hardware. Over time it will continue to improve as we go forward.

Well, it's better late than never, but is the damage done? This is what NVidia fanboys really need to answer.

Danik
10-02-03, 12:34 PM
I honestly don't understanding why people who are Pro ATI are flaming away when someone mentions the Det 50's. According to some tech sites, the Det 52's have much better IQ than what we saw from the 51's. Regardless, Nvidia is only to the point where it seems the GFX series will be able to match, or be slightly less in performance than the Radeon equivalents. That said why the hell do all the ATI people continue to criticize. ATI is still winning, although not as much. People like Hellbender, or maybe it is Hellbinder, avidly flame anyone who mentions anything about Nvidia. Things have basically turned in a complete circle. Before Nvidia people would mock ATI regardless of any technological advances they have made, especially in the Radeon 9000 series, and now we have ATI people avidly flaming those who are happy that they are receiving close to the same performance of a Radeon with marginal/unnoticeable IQ degradation.

digitalwanderer
10-02-03, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Danik
I honestly don't understanding why people who are Pro ATI are flaming away when someone mentions the Det 50's. According to some tech sites, the Det 52's have much better IQ than what we saw from the 51's.
Yes, but nVidia's track record of late with how they've been 'fixing' their drivers just tends to make most of us doubt anything nVidia or anyone else says about their drivers until they are officially released anymore. :(

Tsunami
10-02-03, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Deathlike2
Honestly, if that were true, they should've spent that time WAY BACK WHEN, like during the Det FX series (and potentially the Det40 series)... they spent "optimizing" for 3DMark and not their compiler (for their shaders)

It's kinda "late" in the sense that they really should've started earlier.. as what is happening now is a result in "catching up to the competition"

Source:
http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/kirk_interview/page2.asp

To quote David Kirk:



Well, it's better late than never, but is the damage done? This is what NVidia fanboys really need to answer.
I think people with the intent to flame should wait until the DET 50's come out. They could themselves come extremely unstuck if the det 50's work miracles. Besides the point my fx 5900 ultra has nothing neccessary to fix it works perfect as it is but flamers will always be flamers :flame::flame::flame::flame::flame::flame::flame:

StealthHawk
10-02-03, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Danik
I honestly don't understanding why people who are Pro ATI are flaming away when someone mentions the Det 50's. According to some tech sites, the Det 52's have much better IQ than what we saw from the 51's.

You mean according to Anandtech? ROFL. Look at what else he said. Seems pretty damn inconsistent to me with all his talk of questionable FSAA quality, questionable AF, stuttering, weird generic "issues" in HL2 and Gunmetal etc.

Discussion (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=205813#post205813)

Plus if IQ is improved compared to the horrible 51.75 how is that something to be proud of? It's like telling your parents your grade went from an F to a D. Nothing to call home about.

Sotos
10-03-03, 04:41 AM
Hmmm interesting but what new in Image quality is in these new drivers
Still SUCKZZZ

Is these Benchmark results TRUE or is just some nice Cheaters that give better performance in Benchies in expense of Image quality (standard Nvidia politic)

ATI is coming with Revolutionary Catal 3.8 soon and these benchmarks results will change again anyway

Nvida must do something better from 52.10 to become a KING again

Kihon
10-03-03, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Sotos
Hmmm interesting but what new in Image quality is in these new drivers
Still SUCKZZZ

Is these Benchmark results TRUE or is just some nice Cheaters that give better performance in Benchies in expense of Image quality (standard Nvidia politic)

ATI is coming with Revolutionary Catal 3.8 soon and these benchmarks results will change again anyway

Nvida must do something better from 52.10 to become a KING again

Just a fyi, ATI have repeatedly said the 3.8s are not about big increases in performance. They are about new features, and bug fixes.

The Baron
10-03-03, 08:11 AM
Det50 will be out in a week.

Tsunami
10-03-03, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by The Baron
Det50 will be out in a week.
That was said last week:rolleyes:

The Baron
10-03-03, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Tsunami
That was said last week:rolleyes:
See, last week was speculation, this I actually know.

Tsunami
10-03-03, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by The Baron
See, last week was speculation, this I actually know.
Hope your right Baron butr i also hope Nvidia don't rush these drivers they could do a hell of alot for the FX range if done properly

Rabbitfood
10-03-03, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
if IQ is improved compared to the horrible 51.75 how is that something to be proud of? It's like telling your parents your grade went from an F to a D. Nothing to call home about.
How can improved IQ be a bad thing ?, don't follow your logic here :confused:

saturnotaku
10-03-03, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Rabbitfood
How can improved IQ be a bad thing ?, don't follow your logic here :confused:

But if the improvements aren't that great and IQ was bad to begin with, then it can hardly be called an "improvement." Look again at the grade analogy. And improvement from an F to a D isn't that much better.

goofer456
10-03-03, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by Rabbitfood
How can improved IQ be a bad thing ?, don't follow your logic here :confused:

As the IQ was degraded dramatically and still is far insuperior to Ati with the latest Det's it is a bad thing. They should not have lowered the IQ in the first place.

Rabbitfood
10-03-03, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by saturnotaku
But if the improvements aren't that great and IQ was bad to begin with, then it can hardly be called an "improvement." Look again at the grade analogy. And improvement from an F to a D isn't that much better.
So if the F is the 51.xx betas and the D is the 52.10 what is the grade for the 45.23's ?

StealthHawk
10-03-03, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Rabbitfood
How can improved IQ be a bad thing ?, don't follow your logic here :confused:

Ok, let's look at the big picture here. Let's say driver 40.xx-43.xx had grade A. Driver 44.03 has grade B. Driver 45.23 has grade C. Driver 51.75 has grade F. Driver 52.14 has grade D. So yes, there is an improvement from 51.75 to 52.14 possibly(since that has yet to be proven), but it still falls way short of where the grade should be and what the student taking the course is capable of. Get it?

As for the original analogy, both a D and an F are terrible grades and nothing to be proud of. They are both horribly bad. Sure a D is higher than an F but it's still not passing.

Rabbitfood
10-03-03, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Ok, let's look at the big picture here. Let's say driver 40.xx-43.xx had grade A. Driver 44.03 has grade B. Driver 45.23 has grade C. Driver 51.75 has grade F. Driver 52.14 has grade D. So yes, there is an improvement from 51.75 to 52.14 possibly(since that has yet to be proven), but it still falls way short of where the grade should be and what the student taking the course is capable of. Get it?

As for the original analogy, both a D and an F are terrible grades and nothing to be proud of. They are both horribly bad. Sure a D is higher than an F but it's still not passing.
So did you test the IQ of the Driver "D" (52.14), have not seen any "official" IQ tests on that driver revison, i guess we will find out when it's released on the nivida website, until then, to "grade" the IQ on an unreleased version is nothing more then speculation.

StealthHawk
10-03-03, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Rabbitfood
So did you test the IQ of the Driver "D" (52.14), have not seen any "official" IQ tests on that driver revison, i guess we will find out when it's released on the nivida website, until then, to "grade" the IQ on an unreleased version is nothing more then speculation.

No. We know there are hacks in HL2(see performance). We know there are "issues" in Gunmetal and HL2, but not what those issues are(Anand). We know FSAA may not be enabled in all games(Anand). We know filtering quality is questionable(Anand) so it probably has the same behavior as 51.75. And in AM3 IQ is supposedly up compared to 45.23 and/or 51.75(Anand) but we don't know if it is at 44.03 levels. And we have comments saying that although NV38 has higher framerates than R360 is looks choppier(Anand). It is not just speculation.

And how do you know I don't have access to 52.14? I'm not saying I do, because I don't, but you don't know that. I'm sure I could get my hands on it if I wanted it. But I don't have a gfFX, so that would be rather pointless.

You see, there has been a pattern going on. Let's use the student example again. Let's say you're a teacher and you catch a student cheating. Let's say you catch him multiple times during the period of 3 months. Every time there is an assignment or a test he cheats. It is perfectly logical and fair to assume that he will cheat again. There is a difference between unfounded claims, skepticism, rational claims, etc, etc.Some people who bash NVIDIA are just ATI fanboys. Some people who "bash" NVIDIA are only stating the truth.