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fingermouth
10-05-03, 05:56 PM
I am a fan of Nvidia just for starters and i commented about nvidia getting thier acked together and someone closed the thread, ya im a cub fan too here in the real big city and their was no comments about my thread i guess that is why my thread was closed but still they need to get there s&it together or their done and i don't want it but ati is like twice as fast as Nvidia and nvidia needs to make the ultimate Card and listen to the fans but their not. Sounds like a 3dfx habbit. Oh yea they did the same thing 3dfx did and look where it got them i love the FX line but please can Nvidia get something out their that is faster than ATI please.

mrsabidji
10-05-03, 06:05 PM
yup, that's strange. We should be seeing 2 replies to your thread, the last one being from hellbinder, but when I open it, er... there's only your first post and I still have the possibility to answer, like if it wasn't closed. You must be cursed or something...

mrsabidji

digitalwanderer
10-05-03, 06:14 PM
I think your thread was closed because you were sort of restating the obvious and a mod probably thought you were trying to flame/troll for trouble.

I just put "GO CUBS GO!!!" since I saw you were from Chicago and I felt sarcastic, I meant no offense. :(

mrsabidji
10-05-03, 06:16 PM
By the way, the 2-ghost-replies/open-closed-thread 'bug' suddenly disappeared.

mrsabidji

fingermouth
10-05-03, 06:27 PM
I hope they get it done and i kow about the closed thread im trying to get someone who relates to me an nvidia fan that has become disopointed with them. I love nvidia but there slowely losing my intrest in them because of their lack of DX9 support and not being as fast as Nvidia but we all know they will comeback with something that will draw the public eye on them but they need a product that will leap far ahead of ATI i just want opions about this issue. you guys are a bunch of nice people on here and your opions make a differnece or make me feel better .

ragejg
10-05-03, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by fingermouth
I love nvidia but there slowely losing my intrest in them because of their lack of DX9 support and not being as fast as Nvidia

... erm... do you mean as fast as ATI?

... Yes, many of us who still like the company are feeling the same way... There's much being thrown in the company's face right now, but they are aware, and they are reactionary... This trait helps them and hurts them IMO... as some of their solutions have not gone over too well in the enthusiast sector...

And as for something that leaps over ATI's technology... well that's NV40... and so far there's not much that's definite as far as it's specs and competitiveness with R420 (and XGI & S3)... .. that's basically a *next year wait n see* type of thing...

Geforce4ti4200
10-05-03, 09:53 PM
the nv40 better be all or Nvidia is gonna sink even deeper

Ady
10-06-03, 02:15 AM
I can't see the NV40 being all that special. I think NV will struggle for awhile yet. The NV50 could be interesting though.

oqvist
10-06-03, 04:50 AM
I donīt know if you have been away but there has been quite some arguments going on here after people taking note of the Tombraider and Half Life 2 benchmarks when these nVidia issues officially met the light.

I donīt think you would have a problem finding threads with pretty much what you are stating so the mods maybe gets tired of these threads :)

Me I have lost all hope of the NV40. nVidia really seems to be quite far behind technologically wise. And that they are saying in PR interviews that graphics card wonīt be their major market in the future doesnīt sound good.

nVidia isnīt that big after all. From what I know they are still smaller than ATI and ATI is just about only producing graphics cards from what I know.

But maybe they will come back. There always seems to be 1 dominant that dominates for several years and then there comes another that dominates for several years before someone else takes over. There is seldom 2 companies leapfrogging eachother constantly like in the CPU business now when Intel got some real competition.

Hanners
10-06-03, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by Ady
I can't see the NV40 being all that special. I think NV will struggle for awhile yet. The NV50 could be interesting though.

It's certainly interesting to note the rumour that ATi saw the specs for NV40 and canned R400 in its form at that point because it was way beyond what NV40 was capable of.

It sounds like NV50 is going to be the make or break part for nVidia though.

CapsLock
10-06-03, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by Hanners
It's certainly interesting to note the rumour that ATi saw the specs for NV40 and canned R400 in its form at that point because it was way beyond what NV40 was capable of.

It sounds like NV50 is going to be the make or break part for nVidia though.

A couple things. One, was it because nv40 was technically advanced in terms of features or because the nv40 was a super high horsepower version of already existing tech.? (ie.: "simply" (4X2)X2 +a little more) The difference being, if R400 was a marvel of theory or technique (as HB has rumored) it might have been inappropriate to use it to compete with a more conserative marvel of brute force. Given that Ati have responded with a high horsepower (8X1)X2 version of thier own, I would say they chose to fight fire with fire. So my point is, Ati didn't "can" the R400 (which is the R500 now, of course) because it was inferior exactly. Also, there is the possibility that higher tech manufacturing processes were required for R400, which I think I read somewhere.

I agree about the NV50, but I am just not sure if nvidia will have time to get to it, what 1.5-2 yrs from now? If dx9 games are already coming out that have drastically changed the performance landscape and therefore the market, how will Nv survive with tech thats half the speed? Or against new competition that doesn't suffer from the FX lines dx9 probs? I guess its quite possible/likely that they will muddle through on sheer inertia, but I am not so sure that this is an absolute given. It will be great to see what XGI are going to do to the market.

I would say rather, that nvidia's ability to fix whats wrong with the FX architecture with the nv40 and its derivatives (as much as possible) is the make or break point for them, much more so than nv50. Six months is a long time in the graphix world, business wise.

Caps

serAph
10-06-03, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Hanners
It's certainly interesting to note the rumour that ATi saw the specs for NV40 and canned R400 in its form at that point because it was way beyond what NV40 was capable of.

It sounds like NV50 is going to be the make or break part for nVidia though.

the NV40's numbers alone are quite impressive, but we all know what good numbers are when they dont work with standards :rolleyes:

fingermouth
10-06-03, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Hanners
It's certainly interesting to note the rumour that ATi saw the specs for NV40 and canned R400 in its form at that point because it was way beyond what NV40 was capable of.

It sounds like NV50 is going to be the make or break part for nVidia though.

How does ATI or anyone get to see the blueprints on the competition. That stuff is usually private and confidentioal. Being ATI knowing Nvidia's Specs but hopefully their is some good out of this. As far as Nvidia looking to other things in the future, sounds like a copout to the cometition so maybe Nvidia has lost their edge on this issue so i hope Nvidia comes out with the ultimate gameing card becuae im not switching unless i have too so im going to play with my toys and be back when Nvidia comes to reality.

oqvist
10-06-03, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by fingermouth
How does ATI or anyone get to see the blueprints on the competition. That stuff is usually private and confidentioal. Being ATI knowing Nvidia's Specs but hopefully their is some good out of this. As far as Nvidia looking to other things in the future, sounds like a copout to the cometition so maybe Nvidia has lost their edge on this issue so i hope Nvidia comes out with the ultimate gameing card becuae im not switching unless i have too so im going to play with my toys and be back when Nvidia comes to reality.

Well I canīt see nVidia being able to close the gap with the NV40. Seeing how far behind they are really. I mean itīs really really bad when the 5900 gets so demolished in dx 9 benchmarks on a 1-2 years old 9700 PRO... Canīt remember how long it has been out. Quite a long time though...

serAph
10-06-03, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by oqvist
Well I canīt see nVidia being able to close the gap with the NV40. Seeing how far behind they are really. I mean itīs really really bad when the 5900 gets so demolished in dx 9 benchmarks on a 1-2 years old 9700 PRO... Canīt remember how long it has been out. Quite a long time though...

thats a pretty uninformed statement to be making tho - they're not just adding on to the NV3x series with the NV40 therefore how far behind they are is completely irrelevant to the NV40's performance.

Besides, the only thing the 9700 beats the 5900 in is PS2.0 - nothing else it does even holds a candle to the 5900. Unfortunately, the NV40 is already rumored to have stunted shaders. With IBMs help tho, I doubt they'll let that happen again, but only time will tell.

cthellis
10-06-03, 04:16 PM
Holds the same candle 9800's do to 9700's, don't it? :rolleyes: On the whole we're not dealing with monumental performance increases here.

serAph
10-06-03, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by cthellis
Holds the same candle 9800's do to 9700's, don't it? :rolleyes: On the whole we're not dealing with monumental performance increases here.

not at all! I agree.

oqvist
10-06-03, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by serAph
thats a pretty uninformed statement to be making tho - they're not just adding on to the NV3x series with the NV40 therefore how far behind they are is completely irrelevant to the NV40's performance.

Besides, the only thing the 9700 beats the 5900 in is PS2.0 - nothing else it does even holds a candle to the 5900. Unfortunately, the NV40 is already rumored to have stunted shaders. With IBMs help tho, I doubt they'll let that happen again, but only time will tell.

But if it was so easy to fix why didnīt they fix it with the NV35? I mean nVidias shaders are in some cases 3 times slower than ATI:s. Remember what everyone said about the NV35 when the NV30 was released. That it was going to fix everything. Obviously they didnīt so why would we allow us to get so easily fooled again thinking that they will succeed with the NV40?

Surely it will possible beat the R350 but can it match the R420? This isnīt irrelevant. Do you think ATI just lay back and let nVidia come back? From what I have seen they are meaning business breaking through in the gaming market.

And about 5900:s superior performance than the 9700 PRO in just about any other area? Clock them the same and the 9700 PRO will probably beat the 5900 ULTRA in just about every test, with or without aa and anisotropic. I canīt see how it would be able to compete against the 9800 PRO without their cheating drivers so they sure is behind technologically wise. Not just PS 2.0 performance...


For sure I donīt know how the NV40 will share but I do know I will never buy it. Will probably by the R420 and when I am getting confident NV40 is all that the previous FX cards arenīt I may consider getting a NV50 in the future. That only if nVidia gears much more towards image quality than in the past FX efforts...

Donīt thrust nVidia...

The Baron
10-06-03, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by oqvist
But if it was so easy to fix why didnīt they fix it with the NV35? I mean nVidias shaders are in some cases 3 times slower than ATI:s. Remember what everyone said about the NV35 when the NV30 was released. That it was going to fix everything. Obviously they didnīt so why would we allow us to get so easily fooled again thinking that they will succeed with the NV40?
Because NV35 was what we in the industry call "very very rushed?" Remember, NV30 review samples came out in January, and NV35 samples came out less than four months later. That's fast, eh. Especially since it's not a very teeny incremental upgrade like R350->R360 (well, maybe it is, but then again, maybe the move to a 256-bit bus isn't that small).

Surely it will possible beat the R350 but can it match the R420? This isnīt irrelevant. Do you think ATI just lay back and let nVidia come back? From what I have seen they are meaning business breaking through in the gaming market.

NV40? Sure. Wouldn't take too much compared to beating an OC'd R360, and the R400, Der Ubercard des Nibelungen, has been renamed to R500 and pushed back. R420 will just carry on the same route as the R3x0, so it's possible NVIDIA will trounce them with special features. Likely? Doubt it, but hey, I honestly wouldn't be surprised.

And about 5900:s superior performance than the 9700 PRO in just about any other area? Clock them the same and the 9700 PRO will probably beat the 5900 ULTRA in just about every test, with or without aa and anisotropic. I canīt see how it would be able to compete against the 9800 PRO without their cheating drivers so they sure is behind technologically wise. Not just PS 2.0 performance...
1. Uhm, clock an Intel P4 EE at 2.2Ghz, and a Barton 3200+ will smack it like a two-dollar ho (or, as we like to call her here, Digitalwanderer :D ). The core speed makes up for it, though, so that argument means absolutely nothing.

2. NV38? I honestly don't know how good it will be. I know one guy who knows at this moment how good it is, and he hasn't informed me (yet ;) ). However, don't pin your hopes on NV38. Pin your hopes on NV36. If rumors of improved PS2.0 performance pan out, fanATIcs might be in for a rude awakening come NV40.

For sure I donīt know how the NV40 will share but I do know I will never buy it. Will probably by the R420 and when I am getting confident NV40 is all that the previous FX cards arenīt I may consider getting a NV50 in the future. That only if nVidia gears much more towards image quality than in the past FX efforts...

NVIDIA is aware of IQ issues. They just choose to ignore them at the moment because they will lose the benchmark race and appear incompetent to their investors. I think it will be fixed.

Donīt thrust nVidia...

Here's one--just don't trust a company period. They all want your money.

Paul
10-06-03, 06:36 PM
1. The NV38 isn't going to be a miracle fix. If anything, it's going to fall further behind the competition. It's very existence has more to do with improving yields and costs, than it does with trying to steal any performance crown.

2. The NV35 wasn't rushed. It appeared on the market quickly due to the delays of the NV30. It wasn't massively cut back to rush it to market, and the 256bit bus wasn't a knee jerk reaction - It had been the plan all along.

3. NV40 and R420 will be closer than NV30 and R300, but don't expect nVidia to be walking over ATi just because they've got a new design - There's a lot to be said for brute force.

4. Whilst the original R400 may well have been superior to the NV40, there were huge doubts they (ATi) would be able to get it to market on time, with good yields and pricing. Bringing a chip to market isn't just about performance - Money and image play a huge role. So whilst you may see ATi going to R420 as some kind of evidence that the NV40 isn't going to be good, that isn't the whole story at all.

You're free to believe all the above, and you're equally free to ignore it. But don't continue to spread crap and lies in any thread that has nVidia in the subject.

cthellis
10-07-03, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by The Baron Uhm, clock an Intel P4 EE at 2.2Ghz, and a Barton 3200+ will smack it like a two-dollar ho (or, as we like to call her here, Digitalwanderer :D ).

Really? Dig is valued that high? ;)

Rogozhin
10-07-03, 12:34 AM
You should trust companies to produce what they promise
I trust Saab to make turbo charged nicely driving, affordable, Highest in the class crash rated cars-and that's what they do-as soon as they don't (and consumer reports and the saabnet.com will tell me) I won't buy them.

that's why I won't buy nvidia.

Neither the nv30 nor nv35 was ever rushed-we waited forever.

rogo

micronX
10-07-03, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by cthellis
Really? Dig is valued that high? ;)
He was sarcastically refering to the 'queer as a 2 dollar bill' saying.....:D

jimbob0i0
10-07-03, 03:48 AM
Heh.... most here know my current stance on nVidia and which IHV I prefer at the moment... but I will stick up for them on one issue with the NV40 at this point.

Although I no longer trust NV's drivers and the company as a whole I will not dismiss NV40 yet. Historically NV has always 'ticked the box' for marketing with new features and then 'done it properly' the second time around..... well NV40 is the second time around for NV and DX9... it might yet be decent and we can't judge until review samples next year or RELIABLE technical docmentation comes out.

oqvist
10-07-03, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by jimbob0i0
Heh.... most here know my current stance on nVidia and which IHV I prefer at the moment... but I will stick up for them on one issue with the NV40 at this point.

Although I no longer trust NV's drivers and the company as a whole I will not dismiss NV40 yet. Historically NV has always 'ticked the box' for marketing with new features and then 'done it properly' the second time around..... well NV40 is the second time around for NV and DX9... it might yet be decent and we can't judge until review samples next year or RELIABLE technical docmentation comes out.

Well sure donīt dismiss it but donīt buy it right away or you may be as dissapointed as buyers of the NV30 and NV35 get. NV40 is the third attempt on a dx 9 card from nvidia...

For me the NV40 is at best a "thrust recovery card". If itīs indeed shows itīs a great video card and can compete even if unlikely with the R420 without "optimized drivers" the confidence on nVidia will definiatly grow.

I am a performance fanboy after all so I am smart enough not saying that I wonīt buy a nVidia video card again after all they pulled... But they have to be quite a bit better than the ATI cards or XGI or whatever is out by then...