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View Full Version : HEXUS review of 9600XT with NV36 numbers (I wrote it)


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Rys
10-16-03, 11:45 AM
I noticed the other thread got closed, I'd just like to say something.

What do you expect? They want the "Free Hardware" they want the money... No one does this for the "heck of it" to say they do are lying out of their Arse. They know they can't diss nVidia. If they do they won't get the hardware. It's still true, it's all about the hand-out's.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

Solomon,

That's rich considering I went out of my way to help you recently.

It's not about the handouts, the card isn't for keeps, we don't hang on to reference boards, they all get moved around the hardware press and I'll have to move the board on to someone else shortly.

We'll keep a partner board if we're lucky, and we usually sell them to pay the bills. Yes we DO do it for the fun and to learn. If you're in it for the cash, and you didn't seem to be when we talked recently, that's pretty sad.

As for everything else:

The numbers are correct for the driver and system they were tested with, you'll see the same results in a week when everyone else has boards. I know for a FACT that I'm not the only person with one, I just happened to get permission from NVIDIA to publish numbers since I didn't have 9600 Pro, 9500 Pro or 5600 Ultra.

It would have been a damn bare review with just one line on the graphs, 9600XT. I had to shoehorn 9800XT results in there as it is, just to give you all something to look at.

If you read the review, you'll see I had 24 hours with both boards and no other boards with me for comparison.

We had to beg NVIDIA to allow comparo numbers since NDA doesn't expire until the 23rd.

I love how everything turns in to a massive conspiracy and we're under NVIDIA's thumb, just because it happened to bench higher. You'll all see that NV36 happens to be pretty nice in a weeks time, we just got there first with telling people.

I went out of my way to recommend 9600XT at the end for crying out loud, it's a nice card! I gave 9800 Pro AIW 10/10 when I reviewed it, only the 3rd full 10/10 score I've given ANY product in 3 years of writing, never mind graphics cards. If that's NVIDIA favouritism, I need shooting right now.

Bleh,

Rys

ChrisRay
10-16-03, 11:49 AM
Well that at least explains why the review apeared early. Thank you :)

ragejg
10-16-03, 11:52 AM
Rys, welcome to nvnews.

Your angle on this is appreciated. Methinks a large part of the enthusiast community throws around a few too many generalizations regading review processes, companies helping other companies out, NDA's, and the like.

On a lighter note: ...Only 24 hrs with both boards?? Sheesh, do you have a monkey or robot helping you? :D :D

Stick around here, Rys... :)

ChrisRay
10-16-03, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by ragejg
Rys, welcome to nvnews.

Your angle on this is appreciated. Methinks a large part of the enthusiast community throws around a few too many generalizations regading review processes, companies helping other companies out, NDA's, and the like.

On a lighter note: ...Only 24 hrs with both boards?? Sheesh, do you have a monkey or robot helping you? :D :D

Stick around here, Rys... :)


I agree, Reading this was kinda refreshing. I hope this thread prevents being a flame war. I must say. If these results are practical.. I may have my next Mainstrsm card.

Just depending on release date/and or if I can get a 5900 Before then. Money saving sucks :o

ginfest
10-16-03, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the explanation.
Very simply and not to start a flamewar but let's face it:
any review or personal observation posted here or elsewhere which shows NV to have a fighting chance or even exceed the ATI equivalent is going to come under fire.
It happens here and all over the web-IMHO it doesn't matter about the hardware or drivers anymore, certain people have made it thier business to stomp on NV and they'll continue no matter what happens.

Mike G

DMA
10-16-03, 12:05 PM
So you didn't sign a NDA. There goes my "Oops.." out the window. :)
Anyway, it was interesting to find out some about NV36 and it looks as it's a nice little chip.

ChrisW
10-16-03, 12:05 PM
All I want to know is when did it become commonplace to ruin an ATI product review with an unreleased product? Isn't the NV36 going to get it's own review after it is officially released? Why does nVidia get their unreleased card reviewed during an ATI product launch and after the nVidia product is released?

ChrisRay
10-16-03, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by ChrisW
All I want to know is when did it become commonplace to ruin an ATI product review with an unreleased product? Isn't the NV36 going to get it's own review after it is officially released? Why does nVidia get their unreleased card reviewed during an ATI product launch and after the nVidia product is released?


Does this surprise you? I've seen this happen alot in the hardware community. The P4EE review also comes to mind to try and stomp AMD's 64 bit launch.

This is common practice of the hardware industry I'm afraid.

Rys
10-16-03, 12:11 PM
What did I ruin? We aren't all here to make products look good in reviews. Just because it was a 9600XT review doesn't mean it has to come out the winner in everything.

I explained that NV36 was the only rival card I had and that we begged NVIDIA for permission to use it, I'd have looked pretty silly with 9600XT, 9800XT and maybe a FX5200 on the graphs (if I could face putting that little monstrosity in my rig for a bench session).

Pure and simple. No hidden motives, just me being backed into a corner and needing a comparison card. Isn't my fault it's nice.

I'll say it again, 9600XT is nice, I recommend it like I did in the review. It'll most likely end up a fraction cheaper, like all ATI cards recently and since the performance difference between 96XT and NV36 isn't that much, especially since it's in a cost conscious sector, the 9600XT looks like excellent value for your money.

But I think you'll find NV36 is a bit faster.

Rys

ChrisW
10-16-03, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
Does this surprise you? I've seen this happen alot in the hardware community. The P4EE review also comes to mind to try and stomp AMD's 64 bit launch.

This is common practice of the hardware industry I'm afraid.
No it does not surprise me. It's just my own little rant. All I ask is every product review get the same respect all the other board makers get. Why is nVidia the only graphics card company that it allowed to spoil someone else's product launch. If they want their product reviewed now, they should release their card now.

ChrisRay
10-16-03, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by ChrisW
No it does not surprise me. It's just my own little rant. All I ask is every product review get the same respect all the other board makers get. Why is nVidia the only graphics card company that it allowed to spoil someone else's product launch. If they want their product reviewed now, they should release their card now.


Well. Just for arguments sake. This isnt really comparitive to the A64/P4ee anyway. Since every reviewer had access to P4EE, And this is a single website. Where the reviewer is stating he just asked for a card to compare it too.

Sledge
10-16-03, 12:20 PM
Rys, you have to understand that right now, at this site, anyone saying anything nice about Nvidia products gets several flamethrowers pointed at them very quickly. You were just a convenient target due to NDA speculation, driver optimizations, etc.

As for the P4EE/A64 comparison, that's different. The 5700 will be available at Best Buy and other retailers - a manufacturing run in the hundreds of thousands. Only a few thousand P4EE's will be made (if that much). It was only created to spoil the A64's launch day and nothing more.

Hellbinder
10-16-03, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by ChrisW
All I want to know is when did it become commonplace to ruin an ATI product review with an unreleased product? Isn't the NV36 going to get it's own review after it is officially released? Why does nVidia get their unreleased card reviewed during an ATI product launch and after the nVidia product is released?
Exactly..

The Truth is Rys..

You have allowed yourself to be used By Nvidia. Which I see happen all the Time. Another Recent example the Det 50.75's Which some people used in a couple reviews without a lot of detail about the serious Quality issues.. yet praised them for Performance increasse. Yet never released to the Public.. and never will be.

Your case is a little Different...

You were Given permission to Completely Ruin the 9600XT review.. yet without permission to post the full information on the product in Question, or even Full information about the Drivers used or any issues they have.

This is a CONSTANT pattern with Nvidia. They pull crap like this with the help of web Sites like yours all the time. Nvidia constantly makes Statements about its Drivers and hardware that are never proven true. OF course ATi is a little Guilty of this as well. But in a different way. For instance their recent claim that the 9600XT is as fast as a 9700pro. Completely false.. Yet it was not a malicious devious act against a Competitor. There were no infalted numbers or hacked Drivers here.

In your specific case you used an Unreleased card that is likely not going to be priced in the same range as the card tested against even though you were kind of told it was.. yet one statement after the next as to the unnanounced cards superiority. Pricing a card with that packaging at 199$ would be like pricing an Xbox at 100$ 2 years ago. Could it happen? yeah.. is it likely to happen..? no.. more than likely the non ultra version you were NOT allowed to test or show results for will be the card Nvidia prices at 199$.

ChrisW
10-16-03, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
Well. Just for arguments sake. This isnt really comparitive to the A64/P4ee anyway. Since every reviewer had access to P4EE, And this is a single website. Where the reviewer is stating he just asked for a card to compare it too.
No offense, but what are they doing reviewing graphics cards if they don't have anything to compare it to? I mean, if you don't have access to at least some current graphics cards, you have no business reviewing them. I certainly would not review a product and have to depend on the product's direct competitor to send me a card to review against it. Do you think nVidia is going to send them an old card that is going to insure ATI looks that much better?

ChrisW
10-16-03, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Sledge
Rys, you have to understand that right now, at this site, anyone saying anything nice about Nvidia products gets several flamethrowers pointed at them very quickly. You were just a convenient target due to NDA speculation, driver optimizations, etc.

As for the P4EE/A64 comparison, that's different. The 5700 will be available at Best Buy and other retailers - a manufacturing run in the hundreds of thousands. Only a few thousand P4EE's will be made (if that much). It was only created to spoil the A64's launch day and nothing more.
I'm not making an argument just because you state good things about nVidia. I hope the NV36 is a great card. We need much more competition in the graphics card industry. I'm only complaining about what I see as an unfair process. If nVidia was not constantly doing things like this, nobody would have anything to complain about.

ChrisRay
10-16-03, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by ChrisW
No offense, but what are they doing reviewing graphics cards if they don't have anything to compare it to? I mean, if you don't have access to at least some current graphics cards, you have no business reviewing them. I certainly would not review a product and have to depend on the product's direct competitor to send me a card to review against it. Do you think nVidia is going to send them an old card that is going to insure ATI looks that much better? ]


*shrug* I actually disagree with this. Considering the nature of hardware reviews and the way single cards are circulated around. I think its understandable he might not have hard others cards to review with.

Sledge
10-16-03, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by ChrisW
I'm not making an argument just because you state good things about nVidia. I hope the NV36 is a great card. We need much more competition in the graphics card industry. I'm only complaining about what I see as an unfair process. If nVidia was not constantly doing things like this, nobody would have anything to complain about.

Which video card should Rys have used as a comparison that would not have caused such an uproar?

Rys
10-16-03, 12:35 PM
ChrisW,

We have 2 main reviewers at HEXUS (myself and Tarinder) and the boss (David).

Tarinder has the 5600U, David has the 9600 Pro. The cards turned up on my doorstep from UPS the day before review embargo, days later than I should have had 9600XT ideally.

I assumed it wasn't even arriving by them, and was totally unprepared for it. You try rounding up hardware in 24 hours when it's spread all over the UK to get a review out you didn't even think you'd be writing.

We don't keep every card, so it's not like picking up whatever we need off a huge pile of hardware on the shelf.

If I could have used 5600U or 9600 Pro, I would have.

NVIDIA could have said no to me using the numbers.

Maybe we were used in that regard, maybe we weren't, but all I personally can do is run the numbers and hopefully write something decent afterwards. That's all I attempted, just like every other time you see something from me.

Lots of sites didn't even put 5600 of any form in their 9600XT articles, probably for the same reasons I couldn't.

I don't see any 5600 numbers in Beyond 3D's article for example. But I don't see people kicking up a stink about that (and why should they, Dave probably didn't have one).

It just feels like we (me in particular) are being picked on a little over all this. I just write about hardware that arrives *shrug* I have no direct dealings with NVIDIA or ATI or anyone else, everything goes through David.

Rys

ChrisW
10-16-03, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Rys
ChrisW,

We have 2 main reviewers at HEXUS (myself and Tarinder) and the boss (David).

Tarinder has the 5600U, David has the 9600 Pro. The cards turned up on my doorstep from UPS the day before review embargo, days later than I should have had 9600XT ideally.

I assumed it wasn't even arriving by them, and was totally unprepared for it. You try rounding up hardware in 24 hours when it's spread all over the UK to get a review out you didn't even think you'd be writing.

We don't keep every card, so it's not like picking up whatever we need off a huge pile of hardware on the shelf.

If I could have used 5600U or 9600 Pro, I would have.

NVIDIA could have said no to me using the numbers.

Maybe we were used in that regard, maybe we weren't, but all I personally can do is run the numbers and hopefully write something decent afterwards. That's all I attempted, just like every other time you see something from me.

Lots of sites didn't even put 5600 of any form in their 9600XT articles, probably for the same reasons I couldn't.

I don't see any 5600 numbers in Beyond 3D's article for example. But I don't see people kicking up a stink about that (and why should they, Dave probably didn't have one).

It just feels like we (me in particular) are being picked on a little over all this. I just write about hardware that arrives *shrug* I have no direct dealings with NVIDIA or ATI or anyone else, everything goes through David.

Rys
I can't say that I blame you for using the card. I would have probably done the exact same thing. My problem is not with you taking advantage of an opportunity but with nVidia's track record of allowing/encouraging this type of thing.

Hellbinder
10-16-03, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Sledge
Which video card should Rys have used as a comparison that would not have caused such an uproar?
Let me help you with that.

NONE

Then simply use the results of the 9600XT review and include them in the official Nv36 Review when all the information is made available. About Drivers, Pricing everything.

Why is this such a hard concept to understand?

sooner or later maybe some of you will figure out that people like me are not about being blind fanboys.. What we are about is Fairness and Honest output of information so that people can make sound decisions based on imperical data... not smoke and mirrors and misleading PR propaganda.

DMA
10-16-03, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Rys

It just feels like we (me in particular) are being picked on a little over all this.


You wouldn't have been picked on at all if your review had showed RV360 beating NV36.
Tragic but oh so true.. :cool:

If fact, without your "NV36 exclusive" the RV360 launch would have been pretty boring.

:zzzz:

TheTaz
10-16-03, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Rys

But I think you'll find NV36 is a bit faster.

Rys


Hold up Hoss!!!

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12161

Just gotta love competition! :D
EDIT: Yeah, it's the Inquirer... But I wouldn't be suprised if that was ATi's reaction. ;)

Taz

Sledge
10-16-03, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Why is this such a hard concept to understand?

Who said I had problems understanding it? Rys felt a comparison would make a better article. That was his choice.

Hellbinder
10-16-03, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by DMA
You wouldn't have been picked on at all if your review had showed RV360 beating NV36.
Tragic but oh so true.. :cool:

If fact, without your "NV36 exclusive" the RV360 launch would have been pretty boring.

:zzzz:
You are missing the whole point that this is a *tragic* pattern of Conduct by Nvidia. Bait and Switch be it Drivers, hardware etc...

This would have been just as unfair to Nvidia had the tables been turned.

Your missing another point here as well. The Big one. They, Nvidia intentionally allowed patial information to be used because they KNEW the card in question was faster in the tests given. Further they did NOT allow Full dispersment of all the products information. Like MSRP etc. They Did this on the day that the Competitors card was launced.

Now when can you think of any time that ATi has EVER pulled or allowed a stunt like that? Thats Right never,,

So please save your comments about how it would be different if the shoe was on the other foot. The Tragic Truth is the shoe to my recolection.. has NEVER BEEN on the other foot.

Ramen
10-16-03, 01:10 PM
it doesn't surprise the least bit that HEXUS decides to pull **** like this. The fact is that they BEG in front of NVidias doorstep so they can sample their card for a short period of time. Take a look at the 5800 Preview. That had to be one of the most slanted,biased,PR ridden bull**** I have ever seen in my life. If you don't remember http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD00OTcmdXJsX3BhZ2U9MTQ =

And yes, I agree with Hellbinder that you are ruining the review. A review of a card is based solely on that card and similar products by that company. Otherwise, it should be called something like NV36 vs 9600XT.

I think its also ridiculous how over half the games are known to be hacked/sponsored/co-developed by NVidia. It really doesn't give an accurate representation at all. But we all know that HEXUS is in bed with NVidia, and has been from Day1.

Q3 - old as ****, NVidia loves it and supports it.
Aquamark III - closely developed with NVidia
UT2003 - Hacked filtering, never does trilinear (wait thats all games now...)
GunMetal - CG Bull****, developed with NVidia, doesnt even look right on ATI cards.

Why don't you try using REAL games that people actually PLAY. Max Payne 2, Call of Duty, Far Cry, Halo, MS Flight 2004, Homeworld II, GTA, Jedi Academy, Elite Force II, etc are all out now or will be in the next few weeks.

IMO, Hexus.NET has always been trash in my book, similar to the filth over at Digit-Life.