Need info from GeForceFX owners!!

[XanderF]

Quick question. I'm *considering* a GeForceFX 5700 after these last set of reviews for my wife's PC.

Now, the thing is...I *need* to know if FSAA works in both "The Longest Journey" and "Grim Fandango". I know it does in the GeForce4 Ti series, and I know it does NOT in any ATI card....but I have no knowledge of the FX cards.

Any info would be appreciated!

[Rampant CL]

Yes

[XanderF]

Pics?

[TheTaz]

Originally posted by XanderF
Now, the thing is...I *need* to know if FSAA works in both "The Longest Journey" and "Grim Fandango". I know it does in the GeForce4 Ti series, and I know it does NOT in any ATI card....but I have no knowledge of the FX cards.

Any info would be appreciated!

Erm... Grim Fandango isn't "3D Acellerated", as far as I know. Yes, it uses DX Direct Draw, but it's "pre-rendered" stuff "simulating" real-time 3D.

Not sure why FSAA would work on a Geforce 4 and not on a ATi, unless ATi doesn't do FSAA on 2D... which Grim Fandago "technically" is 2D.

Taz

[saturnotaku]

Why do you need an FX5700 if you're playing games like TLJ and Grim Fandango? You should be able to run with 4xS AA on your Ti4600 and still get playable framerates. And IIRC Taz is correct in that Grim Fandango technically isn't 3D at all.

[XanderF]

The backgrounds in Grim Fandango and The Longest Journey aren't 3d, no, but the character models are. Those games look crappy when played without FSAA because the backgrounds are all pre-rendered and anti-aliased looking as a result, but the character models are otherwise horribly jaggy.

They do, in fact, both have a '3d accelerated' mode.

As to the FX5700...well those AREN'T the games *I* play (or other people play when they come over), those are the games my *wife* plays. Her computer, so her needs come first.

An FX5700 would be a great way to maybe meet her needs (FSAA those two games) and mine (fairly speedy DX8/9 rendering). *Maybe*. Need to know if it works in those two games, though.

It seems unlikely to me, as I understand nVidia has moved away from the super-sampling FSAA the GeForce4 Ti series did that worked properly in these games and started using a method similar to what ATI uses - that doesn't work.

[TheTaz]

Originally posted by XanderF
The backgrounds in Grim Fandango and The Longest Journey aren't 3d, no, but the character models are.

Uhm... no.

It's all pre-rendered, including the "character models". All the "3D Accelleration Option" does is filter the textures, which still needs to be done in a 2D invironment simulating 3D. There are no "Polygons in 3D space" drawn.

Here:

http://www.gamegenie.com/reviews/pc/grim.shtml

Graphics: Grim Fandango is the first LucasArts adventure game to include fully 3D rendered characters and backgrounds. Like many more recent titles, the in-game graphics transition is perfectly blended into the cut-scenes. This consistent use of graphics in both the cut scenes and gameplay keeps the Land of the Dead very cohesive. Direct3D is supported and produces slightly smoother textures and improves game performance. It should be noted that hardware 3D acceleration is unnecessary--the software rendered version of game already looks fantastic. Of course, Grim Fandango only looks that much better running in 3D accelerated mode.


"fully 3D rendered characters and backgrounds" = Pre-rendered

I used to have a more specific link that described the technology, but I can't find it anymore.

I Hope that helps, tho ;)

Taz

EDIT: I don't know about The Longest Journey.

[XanderF]

There seems to be some confusion on your end, but I'm not sure from where.

In any case, all the nVidia cards I've tried to date most certainly DO anti-alias the character models' edges, and the ATI cards do not.

I can post screenshots tonight if you are really having a problem following this.

(In any case, I have a hard time believing they would leave as much polygon clipping in the game as they did if it was really all just prerendered. Take a look at this screenshot (http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/nov98/grim05.jpg) from Gamesdomain, for example)

[TheTaz]

Originally posted by XanderF
There seems to be some confusion on your end, but I'm not sure from where.

In any case, all the nVidia cards I've tried to date most certainly DO anti-alias the character models' edges, and the ATI cards do not.

I can post screenshots tonight if you are really having a problem following this.

There's also some confusion on your end, as well.

Grim Fandango is NOT drawing 3D Polygons.

Yes, My Geforce Series cards DO anti-Alias 2D. You can tell this by blurred fonts on "2D gui huds" in 3D games. (Especially small fonts)

I don't KNOW if ATi AA's 2D or not. I suspect not, if it's not AA'ing Grim Fandango. If ATi does NOT AA 2D DirectDraw/D3D calls, that should prove Grim Fandango is really 2D. ;)

Taz

[XanderF]

Please read the Gamesdomain review (http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/nov98/grim.html) of the game.

They mention at least twice that the game IS rendering 3d models in either software or 3d mode, depending on your choice.

The problem with ATI's anti-aliasing in these two games is that they are 16-bit color games. ATI's anti-aliasing algorith can not do ANYTHING with 16-bit games. What the Catalyst driver does in several cases (of popular 16-bit color games) is convert the 16-bit color calls into 32-bit color calls, which they can then anti-alias appropriately.

These two games they have not seen fit to 'fix', and, as this has been complained about for over a year now, it doesn't seem likely they ever will.

[Solomon]

Isn't Grim Fandango DX7 ? Anyways... XanderF word of advice. Since you aren't sure if certain games you own will work on either of the cards you are suggested I would suggest you go to a brick and morter shop like Best Buy or better yet Circuit City (If you have one of these). CC has the best return policy out there and buy the card there. This way you can bring the card home test it out on your machine and if it doesn't do what you want just bring it back and exchange it for another card.

You'll spend more money but in the end you'll have a card that plays the games you are playing.

Grim Fandango is 3D rendered. What type of 3D is another story. Even some Neo-Geo games render 3D backgrounds while the Characters are 2D. A game can render 3D via software or hardware, but it might be rendering the 3D models differently then how you see it in todays games.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

[The Baron]

If it works on a Ti4600, I can think of no reason whatsoever that it would not work on a 5700, since the FSAA implementation is, as far as I know, exactly the same.

[TheTaz]

Originally posted by XanderF
Please read the Gamesdomain review (http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/nov98/grim.html) of the game.

They mention at least twice that the game IS rendering 3d models in either software or 3d mode, depending on your choice.

That still reads as "pre-rendered" characters, to me. Just because the say "Static backgrounds with 3D Characters" and use the words "Camera", doesn't make it "actual 3D rendered". I wish I could find the link that stated for a fact that it's ALL pre-rendered. Basically the character "models" are Hi-res, pre-rendered sprites, that react to your "view angle" and control, according to what I've read before.

Mebee someone that knows the devs could set us straight. ;)

Originally posted by XanderF
The problem with ATI's anti-aliasing in these two games is that they are 16-bit color games. ATI's anti-aliasing algorith can not do ANYTHING with 16-bit games. What the Catalyst driver does in several cases (of popular 16-bit color games) is convert the 16-bit color calls into 32-bit color calls, which they can then anti-alias appropriately.

These two games they have not seen fit to 'fix', and, as this has been complained about for over a year now, it doesn't seem likely they ever will.

Well... that may be true too... I don't know the specifics of ATi's tech.... still learning. ;)

Originally posted by Solomon
Isn't Grim Fandango DX7 ?

DX6

Originally posted by Solomon
Grim Fandango is 3D rendered. What type of 3D is another story. Even some Neo-Geo games render 3D backgrounds while the Characters are 2D. A game can render 3D via software or hardware, but it might be rendering the 3D models differently then how you see it in todays games.

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

That's what I'm trying to say... it's all pre-rendered pasted on to 2D, with some very BASIC 3D calls, as far as what I've read in the past. Hell... maybe they were wrong... but it makes sense when you actually play the game. Need to hunt down one of the devs and ask them for sure. ;)

Regards,

Taz

EDIT: Now you guys got me way curious... Breaking out my Grim Fandango Box and installing. LOL! :p

[TheTaz]

Originally posted by TheTaz
EDIT: Now you guys got me way curious... Breaking out my Grim Fandango Box and installing. LOL! :p

Ya... I gotta admit... the characters look "3D rendered" to me.
I regress. Been too many years since I played the game... enough to talk out my @ss without checking! :D

Regards,

Taz

[CaptNKILL]

LOL, Taz come on, how can you say the characters arent 3d?

I had the demo, THE CHARACTERS ARE 3D. Whether they are hardware accelerated or not I dont know but the characters are made out of polygons... you can tell in the screen shots that there are polygons.

Same with the Longest Journey, its Direct3d. The important characters (and any that move around the screen) in that game are 3d models and when Anti-Aliasing is enabled, they are smoothed out.

EDIT: Screen shots show polygonal (pointy) models with blurry textures and smooth shading... non-3d objects (usually sprites) would have pixelation on the edges and would not have blurry textures (because prerendered objects always had more detail than models until recently).
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/grimfandango/screens.html?page=5
Here is a line from the gamespot review: "It's the first from the company to dispense with traditional 2D animation and move to the more cinematic 3D style"

EDIT2: http://support.lucasarts.com/trg/tg.asp?id=65 note in the system requirements, it says 3d Hardware Acceleration is supported.....

EDIT3: In the video card section of that site, here is a bug with a certain card in hardware mode: "Whenever Manny talks to Glottis, Glottis' teeth will be corrupt and may look like they are not connected to his mouth. " This would be impossible if the character was a 2d image because obviously, the teeth are a seperate model (or else they wouldnt have a specific problem). Also, a super high res sprite with millions of frames of animation would have been impossible in 1997 (especially when hardware acceleration is enabled... video cards have a hell of a time with lots of sprites now... just imagine a Voodoo 2!) and is practicly impossible now. At least the important characters in Grim Fandango are 3d models.

:D :dance: