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nForceMan
11-02-03, 11:01 PM
NVIDIA Editor's Day Report (http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=5601)

digitalwanderer
11-02-03, 11:33 PM
I love the whole "FP24 isn't enough" bit, thanks for the chuckles! :)

The article read like it was trying to sound balanced & fair while on it's knees giving nVidia a *******. :cool:

EDITED BITS: Got rid of them annoying stars. ;)

jimbob0i0
11-02-03, 11:40 PM
I'm curious nForceman - did you read to the end of teh article before posting the link or was it too long for you?

The second matter is to discount NVIDIA’s claims of ATI’s technological backwardness and waste of engineering resources on discovering ‘optimizations’ in NVIDIA drivers. ATI was making good progress before NVIDIA miscalculated with the 0.13micron gamble that led to the NV30 delay. The R300 and R350 are also arguably better for today’s needs than the NV3X cards. There’s nothing to stop ATI from making the necessary changes in future cards.

ALthough this bit is wrong....

Once again, it comes down to the numbers that don’t lie (*cough*) – benchmarks. NVIDIA has caught up. It’s taken determined effort by their driver and developer relations teams, but they’ve done it. Are there game-specific optimizations? Certainly. There isn’t a driver out there that doesn’t have them. As Randy Pitchford pointed out, devs will always optimize for the most popular video cards and video card makers will always optimize for the most popular games. Are there still games where NVIDIA lags behind? Absolutely. Quake III (with FSAA and AF) and UT2003 are perfect examples, but on the other hand they have a strong lead in Splinter Cell and NASCAR 2003 now.

ATI devs have gone on record on public forums stating that they will not put in application detected specific optimisations - only general ones so that any software folling the same rendering path will be aided without any additiinal forms of detections.

Considering that these were TWIMTBP devs at an NV event for the purpose of belittling their competitors and applying damage limitation to the NV3X I will finish by quoting a recent statement of Tim Sweeney's:

Hi Anthony,

Well, you could run hardware vendor funded benchmarks and interview people like Gabe and I whose companies have signed big marketing deals with hardware companies. Or you could just write some DirectX9 shader code and draw your own independent conclusions. How's your C++ skills?

-Tim

hmm.....?

NickSpolec
11-02-03, 11:52 PM
Funny...

NVIDIA made a big point of saying 24-bit precision is not enough.

If FP24 isn't enough as Nvidia claims, then why does Nvidia almost exclusively use FP16/Mixed Mode in all DX9 percision instances?

Oh, that's right, it's because current Nvidia hardware is inadequate at doing FP32...

You know, it's one big double-standard for Nvidia: FP16 is great for now, and FP24 is overkill... But in the future, FP24 will be obsolete, while FP32 will be the standard. Which means current Nvidia hardware = Good because it supports FP32, while current ATI hardware = Bad, because it doesn't support FP32.


Nvidia seems to like to bash ATI's current hardware on it's *future* limitations. All the while, of course, forgetting that yes, while current Nvidia hardware will support future FP32 apps, it will in no way be able to run them at acceptable speeds.

GlowStick
11-03-03, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by jimbob0i0
ATI devs have gone on record on public forums stating that they will not put in application detected specific optimisations - only general ones so that any software folling the same rendering path will be aided without any additiinal forms of detections.
Really? Then why do they detect 3dmark01?

Ruined
11-03-03, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
I love the whole "FP24 isn't enough" bit, thanks for the chuckles! :)

The article read like it was trying to sound balanced & fair while on it's knees giving nVidia a *******. :cool:

Just for reference what major sites are left that aren't Nvidia conspirators? :)

So far keeping track I believe your list consists of:
Anandtech
HardOCP
Tom's Hardware
Mercury Research
Firing Squad

ChrisRay
11-03-03, 12:33 AM
This is a really neat article. PR aside.

S.I.N
11-03-03, 01:01 AM
Why is there always a up-roar when Nvidia is put in a good light?! Well your right Ruined another site added to there checklist. There king will soon follow suit with his take on it....you will know he gets here. You guys make this site such a crud, you all must be teenagers.:(

Hellbinder
11-03-03, 01:18 AM
That article is PR.. "PR Aside".. which means there would be nothing left of the Article.

For instance their little claim that ATi was running around exposing Nvidia all over the place. Guess what. People for the most part did that on their own. Perhaps Nvidia should be more concerned about being Cheating scoundrels than trying to pass it off as they are victims? Just an idea.

If FP24 is not enough then it would appear that they are either liars (well actually they are) or they are screwing over all their customers (well actually in some cases they are doing that to).

Another thing FS and Nvidia fails to point out. They are leading in Common well known benchmarks with common well known and HGHLY optomized driver detected levels. Funny how they leave out that when other sites like [H] etc use custom levels the 5950 loses. At DH they even lose pretty big to a 9800pro. That is in modern games with custom levels and benchmarks. Then there are brand new games like Max Payne 2 where they get Squashed. In fact id wager they have problems in nearly every game they have not had 6+ months to specificallty Tweak the hell out of their drivers for. Pull a lithtech game off the shelf and see how the 5950 does as an example.

I dont call that "Finally catching up" not when your performance depends on countless application detection um "Optimizations" which you'll constantly have to wait for the next driver release 3-6 months away unless you use one of their 20 "leaked to the media for benchmarks" drivers.

Sure Nvidia has come a long way with their Hardware and Drivers. I do not disagree with that. The Fx hardware is a decent purchace now where it was not before. Where they are still exceedingly lacking is the "honesty" and "Moral Fiber" department.

Hellbinder
11-03-03, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Sin
Why is there always a up-roar when Nvidia is put in a good light?! Well your right Ruined another site added to there checklist. There king will soon follow suit with his take on it....you will know he gets here. You guys make this site such a crud, you all must be teenagers.:(
Its not about that. The problem is they (Nvidia) cant seem to do it without speading FUD, Misinformation and outright lies about their competition. Thats the Problem.

You guys should consider exactly what it is in these articles that Tic people off. Its got nothing to do with "Nvidia Doing Good". We are right around the corner from XGI products being launched that may well beat ATi in several areas performance wise. I Gurantee you are not going to see the same kind of response you do in threads like this. Why? Becuase Its not about the Raw numbers. Its about the FUD and Deception.

Ruined
11-03-03, 02:03 AM
I think the problem is that Firing Squad didn't say....

"ATI R0XoRZ!!! FP24Z foR!evRS!!!! FP32Z nOG oodZ suntILZz 10YEarz form noW! TeH PatIAL PERCIson of GEEFORFCE IS TOILTET PAPAERS! NViASA IS TEH CheATSzerS! FakE TRIALENEAR!! LETsA SUS ALL Priise thae rachaAITecture Tast is RADEDMDO!NN!! DwnNW wiTh NVCHEATIA!!!! THriER driveSRZ ArE FarCEWARE!!!! ARADenON is BEtSTTERS JSUT lOOk at MYTZ 24x zoommz sceENshoTS! RARRR SupERz Fastttttt PxiEL shaDerz wihtoutz st00pidz nV3X pathWayz! ...In so, we conclude that the Radeon is by far the smartest choice for DirectX9 applications, and the GeForceFX would have about as good a chance of beating it in any category ever as a one legged man would have winning an ass-kicking contest. In fact, if you buy a GeForce FX, you will most likely go to Hell. May God have mercy on your soul."

:angel:

bkswaney
11-03-03, 03:12 AM
It's nice to see good PR at work, well damage contol. :angel:

jimbob0i0
11-03-03, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Ruined
I think the problem is that Firing Squad didn't say....

"ATI R0XoRZ!!! FP24Z foR!evRS!!!! FP32Z nOG oodZ suntILZz 10YEarz form noW! TeH PatIAL PERCIson of GEEFORFCE IS TOILTET PAPAERS! NViASA IS TEH CheATSzerS! FakE TRIALENEAR!! LETsA SUS ALL Priise thae rachaAITecture Tast is RADEDMDO!NN!! DwnNW wiTh NVCHEATIA!!!! THriER driveSRZ ArE FarCEWARE!!!! ARADenON is BEtSTTERS JSUT lOOk at MYTZ 24x zoommz sceENshoTS! RARRR SupERz Fastttttt PxiEL shaDerz wihtoutz st00pidz nV3X pathWayz! ...In so, we conclude that the Radeon is by far the smartest choice for DirectX9 applications, and the GeForceFX would have about as good a chance of beating it in any category ever as a one legged man would have winning an ass-kicking contest. In fact, if you buy a GeForce FX, you will most likely go to Hell. May God have mercy on your soul."

:angel:

and if they had done that I'd have said they can't review worth a damn and were run by 13 year olds ;)

NickSpolec
11-03-03, 09:20 AM
I think the problem is that Firing Squad didn't say....

No, the problem is it is filled with bullsh*t, kindly provided by Nvidia and their gang of PR hoodlums.

With Nvidia and their PR these days, it seems like they are trying to put out a fire with gasoline.

jimbob0i0
11-03-03, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by NickSpolec
No, the problem is it is filled with bullsh*t, kindly provided by Nvidia and their gang of PR hoodlums.

With Nvidia and their PR these days, it seems like they are trying to put out a fire with gasoline.

You have no idea honestly...... wish I could post everything I knew but respect to certain NV employees (not forgetting NDA) means I will not...

digitalwanderer
11-03-03, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by jimbob0i0
You have no idea honestly...... wish I could post everything I knew but respect to certain NV employees (not forgetting NDA) means I will not...
You've officially been added to my list of people I plan to get rip-roaring drunk someday and pump for info... ;)

jimbob0i0
11-03-03, 09:30 AM
heh :angel:

green_meanie
11-03-03, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Ruined
Just for reference what major sites are left that aren't Nvidia conspirators? :)

So far keeping track I believe your list consists of:
Anandtech
HardOCP
Tom's Hardware
Mercury Research
Firing Squad

But alot of people, although they can't prove it worth a sh*t, think Anandtech and HardOCP are also in bed with Nvidia.

Nvidia also is rumored to have been involved with the JFK shooting and helped the government fake the moon landing.

saturnotaku
11-03-03, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by green_meanie
Nvidia also is rumored to have been involved with the JFK shooting and helped the government fake the moon landing.

I knew it all along! :mad:

Seriously, some of you folks need to get a grip.

digitalwanderer
11-03-03, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by saturnotaku
Seriously, some of you folks need to get a grip.
I have. Noticed how I'm ignoring the peanut gallery? ;)

StealthHawk
11-03-03, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by NickSpolec
No, the problem is it is filled with bullsh*t, kindly provided by Nvidia and their gang of PR hoodlums.

With Nvidia and their PR these days, it seems like they are trying to put out a fire with gasoline.

Well...it was a report about an NVIDIA held event. What do you expect to come out of it...? Clearly an event held by NVIDIA will be NVIDIA biased. Any information presented will most likely be biased as well. So anyone covering it will have a biased report due to the fact that the information being reported is biased. Firingsquad themselves need not be biased.

digitalwanderer
11-03-03, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Well...it was a report about an NVIDIA held event. What do you expect to come out of it...?
Mainly lies and FUD, but I didn't like how Firing Squad billed their report on it as more indepth when it really didn't contain anything that hasn't already been reported.

c4c
11-03-03, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Mainly lies and FUD, but I didn't like how Firing Squad billed their report on it as more indepth when it really didn't contain anything that hasn't already been reported.

The news item says: "We took a look at NVIDIA's claims, their points of contention with their competitors - straight to the pros. With honest commentary from programmers Tim Sweeney of Epic and Tim Little of ION Storm, as well as answers from various devs about why they came, we bring you this 9-page report on the event"

Which is exactly what they did.

As with every other company sponsored event, the best bits come from outside parties.

Socos
11-03-03, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by jimbob0i0
I'm curious nForceman - did you read to the end of teh article before posting the link or was it too long for you?



ALthough this bit is wrong....



ATI devs have gone on record on public forums stating that they will not put in application detected specific optimisations - only general ones so that any software folling the same rendering path will be aided without any additiinal forms of detections.

Considering that these were TWIMTBP devs at an NV event for the purpose of belittling their competitors and applying damage limitation to the NV3X I will finish by quoting a recent statement of Tim Sweeney's:



hmm.....?


I wish ATI wouldn't go on record stating that.. If this all plays out like I think it will. ATI is going to half to follow Nivida down that path to stay competitive.

As long as we always have this.... Its not as good but when your fraggin away you'll never see it crap, then I don't think ATI will have a choice but to follow suit.

Farenheit
11-05-03, 01:29 AM
I'm so glad to see that unbiased comparisons are still going on here..

Some of you make it sound like ATI had never EVER cheated on drivers... and that only Nvidia has.

Lest we forget the huge debacle with Quake 3 and ATI? Hmm? Remember that huge flop when radion came out ? Remember when ati posted numbers that blew nvidia out of the water on radions first launch and they got caught?

/sigh , how soon we forget the past and only focus on the now.