View Full Version : Understanding CineFX - MUCH more than the R300
budd_wm
09-28-02, 02:32 PM
I see the intelligence of the comeback arguement is....well, no comment. Word is, just wait, no one on the outside knows jack yet.
borntosoul
09-29-02, 01:28 PM
Wake up ,we are not getting cinema quality graphics YET ,get over the final fantasy rubbish ,and all these fancy effects cause theyre not coming to any games soon !
BladeRnR
09-30-02, 08:42 AM
Nice post. Given I'm a Systems Programmer (Not a graphics programmer by any means) I believe your statements concerning Nvidia's shaders and the way Programmers will utilise them for efficiency is very accurate. Given Nvidia's shading & vertex architecture and I can only imagine they'd be very flexible and programmed properly - damn fast.
Roll on Nv30
Cheers
:cool:
jbirney
09-30-02, 11:49 AM
Talk to any game developer and they will tell you there work is targeted at the base line spec of hardware which still today is not even fully DX8 thanks in part to the GF4 Mx.
This reminds me of the PS1.4 vrs PS1.3 arguments all over. ATI fans were singing high praises that PS1.4 was way more efficent than PS1.3. Now we have things reversed and its the other side signing the praises. Oh well....
Originally posted by jbirney
Talk to any game developer and they will tell you there work is targeted at the base line spec of hardware which still today is not even fully DX8 thanks in part to the GF4 Mx.
This reminds me of the PS1.4 vrs PS1.3 arguments all over. ATI fans were singing high praises that PS1.4 was way more efficent than PS1.3. Now we have things reversed and its the other side signing the praises. Oh well....
Actually, i think this is gonna change a little.
You see, there's no problem to write PS1.3 with DX9. And soon, they'll be mainstream.
You CAN do most effects with PS1.3 - they just won't look as good as on 1.4 or 2.0. See where i'm going? With HLSL coming ( Cg, DX9 one, GlSlang, ... ) , making a better version for the R300 and the NV30 shouldn't be too hard. ATI would have been very happy at the time they introduced PS1.4 if HLSL would have existed.
But then again, there IS one exception: branching.
A game got to be thinked with static branching in mind - and if you want dynamic branching, then you'll also have to think about it, and even more.
You certainly won't add it 3 months before release!
As i said before, NV's betting more than ever on developers. They are doing their best for NV30 power to be used as soon as possible. Will it work? Only time will tell.
Uttar
StealthHawk
09-30-02, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
You see, there's no problem to write PS1.3 with DX9. And soon, they'll be mainstream.
mainstream DX9 and soon? from what card? rumors would place the R9500 at $180, which isn't exactly mainstream enough to be really called mainstream. shave $50 off the price and throw in an even lower priced version than that, then we'll have mainstream.
jbirney
09-30-02, 09:50 PM
Uttar,
your missing the point. Cg and Cgfx no matter how good or powerfull will not allow pixel shadders to run on hardware that does not support it. Thus developers wont adopt these as the norm until the hardware is ready for it. And with the majortiy of hardware at DX7...well its gonna be some time...
StealthHawk
10-01-02, 04:08 AM
i believe the point he is getting at is that as soon as DX8 games become more common, DX9 features could theoretically also be implemented easily as well. so the advent of DX9 games may coincide somewhat with DX8 games.
Bigus Dickus
10-01-02, 08:18 AM
And again, why? Why would any developer waste writing games for DX9 until there is greater than 1% of the market with DX9 hardware? That won't happen with 9700, 9500, and NV30 on the market... it will only happen once a value/mainstream version is released (9500 will still be a bit too pricey to be considered value).
jbirney
10-01-02, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
i believe the point he is getting at is that as soon as DX8 games become more common, DX9 features could theoretically also be implemented easily as well. so the advent of DX9 games may coincide somewhat with DX8 games.
No way except for basic features. Will a DX8 card handle displacement mapping? DX9 requires a floating point pipeline and some features you can do there just are not feasible to run on a DX8 hardware.
Again the over all complexity of programming of DX8/9 is not the bottle neck here. Its the simple fact that the majority of the hardware out there is sub dx8 and thats what the developers will target, the majority.. Cg is a good tool to over coming the programming road blocks but again thats not the issue here.
StealHawk understood me correctly.
What i meant is that writing PS1.3 ( that's GF4, people ) with DX9 should normally be possible ( it might not be possible, but i'd say there's a 99% chance that it's possible )
Well, yes, displacement mapping is another example that won't be implemented that fast since making a DX8 alternative gotta be very painful in some cases. But there are things where making an alternative isn't hard - just don't implement it.
This isn't really a good example since it was possible with DX8 too, but anyway, take shiny surfaces.
If you don't have the graphic power to use them... then just don't. It can simply be an option and there's no problem with that.
Also, keep in mind that you certainly aren't going to see DX9 games ( REAL ones, the ones who actually use the features correctly ) for at least 9-14 months. In a year, DX8 will hopefully become much more mainstream.
Uttar
jbirney
10-01-02, 12:23 PM
In a year, DX8 will hopefully become much more mainstream.
Not until they get that GF4mx out of the picture.
Originally posted by jbirney
Not until they get that GF4mx out of the picture.
*cough* NV31 *cough*
Need i say more? :)
IMO, NV31 will be like the Ti4200 today. Not really mainstream, but not highend either.
They wouldn't keep 3 generation - so once they'd introduce the NV31, say bye bye to the GF4 MX. That's just my speculation on how it's all gonna happen. But then again, i could be wrong.
Uttar
Bigus Dickus
10-01-02, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
*cough* NV31 *cough*
Need i say more? :)
*cough* they just launched yet another DX7 part *cough*
*cough* and how long will it take for NV30 to show up... let alone NV31 *cough*
borntosoul
10-01-02, 12:57 PM
well i think some peeps live in a fantasy world ! how many times does it have to be said that atleast %80+ of the graphics cards are still using dx7 ,yes the gf4 mx was a killer with no drx8 but it just goes to show you how important dx8 was to the main value sector at that time ! we have no true value dx8 part out yet and you talking about a value dx9 part! the ti4200 is not value dx8 catagory yet but its getting closer ,and now we have the nforce 2 with built in dx7 ,see where im getting at , the only hope we got is that nvidia make sure some big name games come out with these effects as options ,track record hasnt shown much of that !
Originally posted by Bigus Dickus
*cough* they just launched yet another DX7 part *cough*
*cough* and how long will it take for NV30 to show up... let alone NV31 *cough*
Yeah, and? They can put it out of the market in six months or a little more.
As for the NV30, i'd say it would be out in december or before ( but that's unlikely )
But then again, i might have to do some crow eating again if that's incorrect...
BornToSoul:
Err, i PERFECTLY well know most of the market is DX7. However, you said the following:
we have no true value dx8 part out yet and you talking about a value dx9 part! the ti4200 is not value dx8 catagory yet but its getting closer ,and now we have the nforce 2 with built in dx7 ,see where im getting at
"We have no value DX8 part out yet" : None from nVidia, but i'd consider the Radeon 9000 a value DX8 part. And Trident upcoming GPUs are true value DX8 parts. Sub $100 and good perf.
Did i ever say NV31 would be "value"? No. I said it was going to be at about the same price range as the Ti 4200, maybe a little more. And you agreed the Ti 4200 wasn't value.
"We now have the nForce 2 with built in DX7 support, see where im getting at"
What did you hope? A high-end integrated graphic card?
nVidia next motherboard product will most likely include DX8 support. Maybe it won't be a speed demon, but at least it'll be mainstream.
So, we'll see who's right in a couple of months i guess :)
Uttar
borntosoul
10-01-02, 01:49 PM
hi end integrated graphics part wont happen , im sure of that! but it wouldve been nice to see a integrated dx8 part ,that wouldve shown a lot more confidence for thew dx8 scene , im just trying to explain how the market is thinking at the moment ,id like to see how mainstream the radeon 9000 will be ,and as for trident well MUHAHA i feel sorry for them
StealthHawk
10-02-02, 12:08 AM
i'll hedge my bets that the nforce for Hammer will eventually have a integrated part with DX8 support. at least by the time Hammer goes to .09 micron
borntosoul
10-02-02, 01:02 AM
i hope we get a dx8 part for nforce hammer and without all the hangups this board is having at the moment,im just trying to be realistic as to how long it takes for new techs to trickle down to mainstream ,some peeps have trouble accepting that :(. i will say this remember with the launch of the geforce 3 and 4 how nvidia had made a big advert on their website on how it was going to change the face graphics ,this was a fair while before launch ,its strange but theyre very quiet now hmmmm i wonder whats going on
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