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Uttar
11-08-03, 11:46 AM
Hi everyone,

I finally finished my final editorial, AKA Post Scriptum. Yeah, yeah, I know, it took an awful lot more time to write than the expected 1-2 weeks. Eh.

Here's the link: www.notforidiots.com/ULE.php

Feedback, comments or flames? Those are all welcome! :)


Uttar

digitalwanderer
11-08-03, 11:57 AM
The Dig stands and starts clapping and screaming enthusiastically!

I give it about 10 minutes before your site is totally inaccessible, prepare for the /. effect. :cool:
It can be hard to believe the misinformation customers and employees get is increased by incompetence. Here’s an excellent example, the register usage and FP16 vs FP32 performance problems—time and again noted as the key failure of the NV3X architecture—remains unknown to the NVIDIA PR department responsible for dealing with its ramifications! As late as September 2003, a prominent employee in NVIDIA public relations sincerely claimed to me that FP16 is simply two times as fast as FP32. Problem is, in real games, you’ll have a hard time making it run even 45% faster. With such ridiculously high expectations when it comes to your hardware, it’s not hard to understand why nobody at NVIDIA seems worried—they got the “fastest” card on the market, after all.
:lol:

A great job Uttar, it was actually worth the wait! :cool:

The Baron
11-08-03, 12:07 PM
Mmmm. Read it all. One of the VERY few articles where I can really say that yes, I DID read it all. Excellent article all around. Damnit Uttar, why are you quitting... now we have to rely on Fudo. :p

Sazar
11-08-03, 12:07 PM
interesting...

pity you are off into the blue yonder though... was good to keep hearing tidbits of info bout various products from time to time...

nice effort there uttar...

ChrisRay
11-08-03, 12:26 PM
Why are you quitting Uttar? I Simply dont understand that.

volt
11-08-03, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
Why are you quitting Uttar? I Simply dont understand that.

I thought it was obvious after reading the ULE.

ChrisRay
11-08-03, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by volt
I thought it was obvious after reading the ULE.

I read his whole article which seemed more focused on nvidia than his actual reasons. I could speculate he's tired of dealing with Nvidia. But I dont like speculating.

bkswaney
11-08-03, 12:32 PM
Nice read man. :)

Voudoun
11-08-03, 01:02 PM
Quality stuff, Uttar. Even though you're pulling out, I hope you'll keep frequenting forums. Your insight is valuable.

I also hope nVidia get their act together, to keep pushing ATi, who will push nVidia etc. Trouble is there doesn't seem to be the collective will to do what it takes. Perhaps they grew complacent while ATi were making mistakes, but now they're a mean machine. With Orton in charge, I don't think ATi will repeat nVidia's mistake of taking their opposition's inability for granted.

The page on nVidia management was a real eye-opener. For months now it's been clear to me (a Ti4600 owning outsider) that nVidia wasn't being led well, but that was shocking frankly. It's going to be hard to be successful with poor management and unmotivated talent. Uttar's remark about the number of leaks from nVidia vs ATi was interesting.

I hope they get some new management, good internal communication, innovate, replicate ATi's driver ethic, and in general just get a grip. Users, more than anyone, need the competition after all. However, if they don't want to do these things then they'll deservedly go the way of 3DFX. If that happens, I just hope the people at nVidia who do still care are able to find employment again. I hear there's this good hardware employer up north. :)

Voudoun

GlowStick
11-08-03, 01:05 PM
I won’t go in the exact reasons, the NV3x currently fails to deliver acceptable Pixel Shading performance. When is NVIDIA going to fess up that not only the NV30, but also the NV31/34 are bad GPUs That dose not make any sence. Shoulnt you be complaing that ATi has not been screaming, our products are bad products, and our drivers are even worse for about 90% of products up untill the r300?

Uttar
11-08-03, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
I read his whole article which seemed more focused on nvidia than his actual reasons. I could speculate he's tired of dealing with Nvidia. But I dont like speculating.

That's a small part of the reason. But other goals are a bigger part of it IMO.

Glowstick: Hehe. Well, remember NVIDIA did publicly say the NV30 is a bad GPU: they said it was a failure and a mistake.
I understand they'll never admit the NV31 and NV34 also are bad GPUs, but I just find it ironic they used the "NV30 is bad, NV35 is amazing" crap to hype the NV30, while the NV31/NV34 are just as bad as the NV30.
And even more amusing, they didn't and won't use the "NV31 is bad, NV36 is amazing" thingy because they'll still be selling NV31s.

Eh.

If that happens, I just hope the people at nVidia who do still care are able to find employment again. I hear there's this good hardware employer up north.

You've got no idea just how much I hope those good employees get employement again, either after NVIDIA being dead if they ever will be, or after being fired for injust reasons.


Uttar

GlowStick
11-08-03, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
Glowstick: Hehe. Well, remember NVIDIA did publicly say the NV30 is a bad GPU: they said it was a failure and a mistake.
I understand they'll never admit the NV31 and NV34 also are bad GPUs, but I just find it ironic they used the "NV30 is bad, NV35 is amazing" crap to hype the NV30, while the NV31/NV34 are just as bad as the NV30.
And even more amusing, they didn't and won't use the "NV31 is bad, NV36 is amazing" thingy because they'll still be selling NV31s.
Uttar Well you have some valid points, but again, i do not see ATi, nor any other company start saying 'our old product is bad' after they release a new product. This dose look like 100% underdog ism, where everyone loves the underdog, and has one wayed opinions such as 'do as i say, not as i do'

example, we have not seen any flames on XGI's new product, you be writing an editorial on how XGI is makeing a crap product (again compared to other products) and is wanting to charge money, they should be putting out press releases saying how crappy their product is.

TheTaz
11-08-03, 01:50 PM
Excellent Article, Uttar!

Hope someone up high at nVidia reads it, and some good comes out of it.

As for your contribution to the community... that's priceless. ;)

Thanks again for your work on GPURW, and your final editorial.

Regards,

Taz

Uttar
11-08-03, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by GlowStick
Well you have some valid points, but again, i do not see ATi, nor any other company start saying 'our old product is bad' after they release a new product.

Actually, my point is NVIDIA did for the NV30.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9173

Many other, generally more "reliable" sources told the exact same story. The dustbuster video is another example of such NV30 bashing directly by NVIDIA.


Uttar

NickSpolec
11-08-03, 02:14 PM
Well you have some valid points, but again, i do not see ATi, nor any other company start saying 'our old product is bad' after they release a new product.

It's called logic, my friend. Though, Nvidia seems to lack that, as of late.

It stands to reason that if a company releases a bad product, they won't come out and admit that, because there's a very high chance that they realized it was going to be a bad product (at some point) during it's development/production.

So, basically, it would mean that a company would be admiting to purposely screwing everyone who bought the product, because they knew they were selling a "bad" product..

Nvidia knew the NV30 was a flawed piece of crap, well before it was released. Yet, they went ahead with the release anyway, only to later bash their own product (and basically spit in the face of everyone who actually bought it).

In a perfect world, a company would ever release a product if it was flawed or "bad". But, in a perfect world, a company wouldn't even *make* a bad product to begin with.

Paul
11-08-03, 02:18 PM
I don't have anything to add beyond what I've already said over at B3D, so I'll just echo the congratulations of everyone else in this thread, and hope that you'll still have some presence around the forums, even in a reduced form.

:afro2:

GlowStick
11-08-03, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by NickSpolec
It's called logic, my friend. Though, Nvidia seems to lack that, as of late.

It stands to reason that if a company releases a bad product, they won't come out and admit that, because there's a very high chance that they realized it was going to be a bad product (at some point) during it's development/production.

So, basically, it would mean that a company would be admiting to purposely screwing everyone who bought the product, because they knew they were selling a "bad" product..

Nvidia knew the NV30 was a flawed piece of crap, well before it was released. Yet, they went ahead with the release anyway, only to later bash their own product (and basically spit in the face of everyone who actually bought it).

In a perfect world, a company would ever release a product if it was flawed or "bad". But, in a perfect world, a company wouldn't even *make* a bad product to begin with. Alright, so you say its logic for a company not to say a product is bad.

Yet the editoral complains about nvidia is not saying their product is bad. Witch dose defy logic, as also the editoral dose not complain that ATi did not label evrery product before the r300 as bad. Thats the point i am trying to make.

Uttar
11-08-03, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by GlowStick
Alright, so you say its logic for a company not to say a product is bad.

Yet the editoral complains about nvidia is not saying their product is bad. Witch dose defy logic, as also the editoral dose not complain that ATi did not label evrery product before the r300 as bad. Thats the point i am trying to make.

Wait-a-second...
ATI's products were rarely overpriced considering their performance. Sometimes they were not the performance leader, but looking at the 8500 for example, they priced it relatively aggressively in the end. The NV31 and NV34, considering their performance, aren't priced all that aggressively IMO :)

What exactly are you trying to do here anyway?:( That sentence was one of the most important, and I agree, one of the least logical and confusing ones.

I don't seriously expect NVIDIA to come out and say "Look, our NV34, which is still our main money maker, sucks". My point is partly sarcastic; they admit a product is bad, but that also means two other money-making products are bad. But they'll never admit that one directly.

See it as an example of misinformation if you want. I don't think complaining so much about that ONE sentence is justified though ;)


Uttar

ChrisRay
11-08-03, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
Wait-a-second...
ATI's products were rarely overpriced considering their performance. Sometimes they were not the performance leader, but looking at the 8500 for example, they priced it relatively aggressively in the end. The NV31 and NV34, considering their performance, aren't priced all that aggressively IMO :)

What exactly are you trying to do here anyway?:( That sentence was one of the most important, and I agree, one of the least logical and confusing ones.

I don't seriously expect NVIDIA to come out and say "Look, our NV34, which is still our main money maker, sucks". My point is partly sarcastic; they admit a product is bad, but that also means two other money-making products are bad. But they'll never admit that one directly.

See it as an example of misinformation if you want. I don't think complaining so much about that ONE sentence is justified though ;)


Uttar

Are you referring the DX 9.0 portion of the NV34? I dont feel the NV34 is all that bad of a card on the DX 8.0 front and AA/AF performance front.

Paul
11-08-03, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
The NV31 and NV34, considering their performance, aren't priced all that aggressively IMO :)

I don't know, the NV34 is around £60 now. That's pretty damn cheap for a card which can run todays games (DX7 and DX8, anyway) at medium settings all round. It's not going to knock anyone's socks off, but I'm not sure they could sell it much cheaper - and, with no budget competition from ATi - they don't really need to.

Hellbinder
11-08-03, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
Are you referring the DX 9.0 portion of the NV34? I dont feel the NV34 is all that bad of a card on the DX 8.0 front and AA/AF performance front.
Do you mean the Nv31?

ChrisRay
11-08-03, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Do you mean the Nv31?

No Actually I mean the NV34, The Geforce FX 5200, I'm comparing it Directly to my Geforce 4 MX 440 I have here, And it's alot better,

Comparing it to the NV17 which it replaced. It's doing fine. It's DirectX 8.0 Implementation is decent, And it cost like 65 dollars :P Just like the MX line, You have to avoid the 64 Bit Memory interface cards.

But because some manufacturers put out really really crappy cards, Doesnt make the card that bad, and it's a solid DX 8.0 card for 60 dollars anyway. Many times I have to always acknowledge these cards are value cards.

For DX 9.0 The FX 5200 doesnt really have any muscle at all. But I think @ DX 8.0 it's pretty decent, My Comparisons are based off my Geforce 4 TI And my Geforce 4 MX,


To be honest, I think the NV31 is one of the worst cards Nvidia ever released. It wasnt really competitive. It performed much worse than a Ti 4200. its AA/AF were fine I guess, But its DX 9.0 Shaders were based off the Nv30 Architecture (Which is a joke) And for its price point there were much better values.

Thank god the Nv36 is based off the Nv35, Tho The Nv35 isnt a DX 9.0 shader king. The Nv36 actually benefits from stuff like partial, PP, Where the NV30/31 does not.

GlowStick
11-08-03, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
Wait-a-second...
ATI's products were rarely overpriced considering their performance. Sometimes they were not the performance leader, but looking at the 8500 for example, they priced it relatively aggressively in the end. The NV31 and NV34, considering their performance, aren't priced all that aggressively IMO :)

What exactly are you trying to do here anyway?:( That sentence was one of the most important, and I agree, one of the least logical and confusing ones.

I don't seriously expect NVIDIA to come out and say "Look, our NV34, which is still our main money maker, sucks". My point is partly sarcastic; they admit a product is bad, but that also means two other money-making products are bad. But they'll never admit that one directly.

See it as an example of misinformation if you want. I don't think complaining so much about that ONE sentence is justified though ;)


Uttar It dose not nessarily mean the other products our bad, the priceing can be an issue, but it seems that with the 5900 non-ultra at 199$ it is more than competaivly priced.

While, you seem to be defending ONE sentace of many very activly.

Uttar
11-08-03, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by GlowStick
It dose not nessarily mean the other products our bad, the priceing can be an issue, but it seems that with the 5900 non-ultra at 199$ it is more than competaivly priced.

While, you seem to be defending ONE sentace of many very activly.

I just don't quite understand you there... Sorry...

There are hundreds of sentences in the editorial. You focus on one and complain loudly about it, not even commenting on anything else. I try to explain you it's not what you think, and you don't even seem to care about anything I say, just trying to find other problems with it.

Also, you're saying " but it seems that with the 5900 non-ultra at 199$ it is more than competaivly priced." - but I said I thought the NV35 and NV36 are much better products, so what's your point? :confused:

I'm just defending that one sentence because it's the only criticism I've got in the whole thread. There were some other comments on B3D, for example, to which I also responded and I admitted I did a mistake there.


What's your opinion on the overall editorial then? :)


Uttar

Hellbinder
11-08-03, 04:01 PM
The prices for Nvidia products just recently started to change. Is it really fair to use a 5900 non ultra with a 199$ prce tag as an example anyway? Of course its a fantastic buy now. You can not say the same thing through the last few months though.