Nvidia 3DM03 talks "NOT FLAMES"

[The Baron]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
Actually no, If you use 3dmark03 (according to Futuremark anyway) you are a member of there program. If you bench with non certified drivers, You are breaking there licensing agreement. (This is with hardware review sites anyway, I dont see how they can really enforce this anyway unless you signed there agreement)
EULA. Interesting. I should email that to my grandfather; he's actually an expert on EULAs (big time Pittsburgh lawyer, was president of Duquesne University there, dean of law school at UPitt, I believe, and has written quite a bit on EULAs. I think I will).

[ChrisW]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
Actually no, If you use 3dmark03 (according to Futuremark anyway) you are a member of there program. If you bench with non certified drivers, You are breaking there licensing agreement. (This is with hardware review sites anyway, I dont see how they can really enforce this anyway unless you signed there agreement)

I actually imagine future reviews just wont use 3dmark03. It's pointless to force reviewers to use licensed drivers, Since most reviewers are going to try and use the latest certified drivers from the site.
Ok, I just saw that in their fine print. Tom's Hardware will probably still use it and burry the details on another page in small print. Otherwise, they will not use it at all as long as nVidia does not win the benchmark.

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by ChrisW
Ok, I just saw that in their fine print. Tom's Hardware will probably still use it and burry the details on another page in small print. Otherwise, they will not use it at all as long as nVidia does not win the benchmark.

You think Toms Hardware will even bother using it? Why them paticularly :P

[ChrisW]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
You think Toms Hardware will even bother using it? Why them paticularly :P
They will use it as long as it helps nVidia look better. Tom's Hardware is the most biased (pro-nVidia) review site on the internet. They are well known for their dirty tricks in their reviews.

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by ChrisW
They will use it as long as it helps nVidia look better. Tom's Hardware is the most biased (pro-nVidia) review site on the internet. They are well known for their dirty tricks in their reviews.


Ahh I figured them the first to bury it because it didnt show Nvidia ina good light since they could get sued for using other drivers.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by Malfunction
Make a mistake, learn from it. As long as they learn from their mistake, I am no longer gonna be on this "Nvidia DIE!!!" trip that many around here appear to be on. :)
Where exactly is there any sign that nVidia has learned anything? This latest "release a beta set that 'fixes' the 3.40 patch 'issue' " seems more like the same old backhanded tactics they've been using all along that has annoyed so many with them....where do you see any signs that they've learned or changed? :confused:

[Malfunction]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
Ahh I figured them the first to bury it because it didnt show Nvidia ina good light since they could get sued for using other drivers.

Terrific!!! It just keeps getting better and better. So, in essence... FM shot themselves in the foot because Nvidia will always cheat 3DMark and the only way to prove it is for FM to keep releasing patches? And since FM's EULA prevents benching with non certified drivers, they may not be used in any reviews any longer.

Bah ha ha! That is pretty damn funny if ya ask me.

Peace,

:rofl

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Malfunction
I responded to it in my last post when I said, "If the hardware is faulty, the hardware is faulty." How soon was it discovered that the AF took more of a hit than the GeForce 3? Did people still buy the GeForce 4, yes.

Why? In knowing that the AF takes more of a performance hit, why subject yourself to a GeForce 4 series piece of hardware? Because it was faster than the Radeon 8500, that's your answer. I am sure that they didn't mean to fall so short in the AF algorythms, well some of the Nvidia employees didn't. I make that statement given the current points of veiw of Nvidia's hardware releases this year.

Well, the AF performance seems to be tied to multitexturing, not the AF algorithm itself.

Quite frankly, NVIDIA was asked about AF performance and they acknowledged there was a bug, but they promised increased performance in a later driver release. They did fix AF performance under OpenGL, and even GeForce3 owners got a speedup. But they never did fix the problem under Direct3D.

So for those who bought a GeForce4 and knew about the problem, they were expecting NVIDIA to fix it. Either through their own hope that NVIDIA driver programmers are Godly, or because they read NVIDIA's response.

There were still other advantages to owning a GeForce4, I am just stating that your asserting that hardware always improves is misleading and false. Overall hardware should get better over time, but you certainly can't say every aspect is better.

I hope I answered your question, if I haven't... I am not really sure the answer you are looking for then. If I didn't, I don't think you are gonna get the answer your looking for... but I will try to clear things up. :)

Peace,

:)

Well, my main question is "why did you bring software into our discussion?" Because I did not mention software, and it was not relevant to the problem at hand. Just a matter of interest as to why you did it, is all.

Basically I am saying you absolutely cannot say that next generation hardware is always better. What you can safely say is that next generation hardware is usually better overall than the generation that preceded it. And even that may be too much of a generalization! Some people feel that the move from SSAA to MSAA was too much of a step backward from an IQ perspective. And some people feel that the added performance was worth the switch.

[John Reynolds]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
Well, my main question is "why did you bring software into our discussion?" Because I did not mention software, and it was not relevant to the problem at hand. Just a matter of interest as to why you did it, is all.

Look at how he constantly ducked my questions and/or changed the subject earlier in this thread. Trying to have a discussion with such people is a waste of time.

[Sazar]

is it not obvious there is blatant psuedo-trolling ongoing here ?

:confused:

[Malfunction]

Originally posted by Malfunction
Would just reinforce the demise of the benchmark. Patch after patch after pact... I love it. Pretty soon, people are just going to get tired of patching 3DMark and it just floats away into software oblivion.

Hardware updates are always going to be justified. They make a product better. Software is a different story, it puts doubt in peoples minds. Just look at the Windows XP patches and what the public feels about there being so many. ;)

Peace,

:D

Did the GeForce 4 prove to be better than the GeForce 3? Answer is yes. Was it perfect? Answer is no, is any hardware perfect? Did I say hardware is always perfect, no.

Your fishing for something here Stealth, but I think your gonna find yourself coming up short. In no way had I ever said that hardware is perfect. I did however say that hardware updates are always going to be justified, where as software updates... are always brought into question. That is what I said. You want verbatim... see the quote above.

Peace,

:D

[Malfunction]

Originally posted by Sazar
is it not obvious there is blatant psuedo-trolling ongoing here ?

:confused:

How is it trolling when I am aswering what is being asked of me?

Peace,

:confused:

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Malfunction
How is it trolling when I am aswering what is being asked of me?

Peace,

:confused:

You still didn't answer why you brought software into the discussion.

Did the GeForce 4 prove to be better than the GeForce 3? Answer is yes.

No, the answer is not always yes. If you only care only about AF then an upgrade from a gf3 to a gf4 cannot be justified because there is very little performance difference. And there have been people on these forums who have complained about the slow AF speed on a gf4. They were unhappy with it, which means their purchases were not justified.

If you want to throw FSAA into the mix, then yes, the gf4 was a better product than the gf3.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Sazar
is it not obvious there is blatant psuedo-trolling ongoing here ?

:confused:

There are other options. Although I agree with what John Reynolds said, it is obvious that trying to discuss the subject is a waste of time :D

[Malfunction]

Originally posted by John Reynolds
Look at how he constantly ducked my questions and/or changed the subject earlier in this thread. Trying to have a discussion with such people is a waste of time.

Mr. reynolds,

I did answer your question and you have never responded to my last reply to you which was the following:

It's in the ability of the code that the developer chooses for the game. How much time is taken to develope the code. I think D3 Alpha runs faster and looks better than Halo on either Nvidia or ATi cards and it is a darn alpha for goodness sake!

And yet plenty of others feel the same too. So many are disappointed about Halo becuase they remember the experience on the XBoX and were eagerly awaiting a better one on their more powerful PC's. Well, it came up short didn't it. Yes, it uses PS 2.0... big deal. It's a completed product while in Alpha stage, D3 offers better graphics and performance... in ALPHA. How is that possible? Becuase Carmack and his team are putting the time into developing the code.

Just because a great game comes out with a great engine, does in no way mean that the derivatives of that game are guaranteeing the same success. It is all in how the code is developed.

So when you say "if an IHV cheats the popular ones used as benchmarks then those benchmarks are worthless", it doesn't mean jack because though 90% of the games may have a connection to the game by way of the engine, it does not mean it will be maximized properly like the successor.

Peace,

:(

[Malfunction]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
There are other options. Although I agree with what John Reynolds said, it is obvious that trying to discuss the subject is a waste of time :D

1) I resent that and can see why so many are leaving nVnews.

2) If you had even read what I said, I responded to what Wonderer said about FM just releasing another patch to invalidate NV's 3DMark scores once again. *Hence, software updates putting doubt in the actuall software.

3) I find it completely rediculous to say some haven't upgraded to a FX or even a GF4 because of the AF or soley because of the AF performance. That is just a crock.

Why do you keep trying to put words into my mouth? I notice you all team up too as soon as someone has something good or decent to say about NV, and yet you bust their chops because what... they come here with the belief that this is a NV Fansite and they are force fed all the ATi is godly crap. That is just awful. I also don't see how I have ever been rude to any of you in any of my post either. Why are you so quick to judge or prosecute someone as a troll whenever they go against the grain it appears and believe Nv is not all that bad.

Pfffft... Thanks for the welcome.

Peace,

:(

[Sazar]

fyi... the nvnews community is growing... not shrinking...

looking @ webhits and uniques I think that would be quite obvious :)

[StealthHawk]

1) I resent that and can see why so many are leaving nVnews.

nV News is growing, not shrinking.

Originally posted by Malfunction
2) If you had even read what I said, I responded to what Wonderer said about FM just releasing another patch to invalidate NV's 3DMark scores once again. *Hence, software updates putting doubt in the actuall software.

And I did not say I disagreed with you. I had a problem with your untrue blanket statement and explained quite clearly what the problem was. I never mentioned software, nor did I say whether or not I agreed or disagreed with your opinions about software. There was no reason to bring up software when responding to my comments.

3) I find it completely rediculous to say some haven't upgraded to a FX or even a GF4 because of the AF or soley because of the AF performance. That is just a crock.

You're doing it again. I did not even bring up the gfFX and AF. Why are you bringing up the gfFX?

You are the one being "ridiculous" if you think some people haven't been unhappy with the gf4's AF performance. I've read most every thread in this forum since the gf4 was released, and I have read people complaining about lackadasical AF performance.

I notice you all team up too as soon as someone has something good or decent to say about NV, and yet you bust their chops because what... they come here with the belief that this is a NV Fansite and they are force fed all the ATi is godly crap.

It has nothing to do with a particular IHV and everything to do with illogical generalizations and blanket statements.

Did you ever stop and think that when some of these so called NV fanboys get bashed it is not because they like NV but because they like NV without reason? Or that their reasons and logic and gaping holes in them that make their positions indefensible? Just because you have the right conclusion does not mean the steps you took to arrive at that conclusion are correct.

That is just awful. I also don't see how I have ever been rude to any of you in any of my post either. Why are you so quick to judge or prosecute someone as a troll whenever they go against the grain it appears and believe Nv is not all that bad.

I never called you a troll.

Pfffft... Thanks for the welcome.

You're not a noob here.

[emotionstation]

Welcome to the internet.

[Hanners]

Originally posted by Malfunction
Terrific!!! It just keeps getting better and better. So, in essence... FM shot themselves in the foot because Nvidia will always cheat 3DMark and the only way to prove it is for FM to keep releasing patches? And since FM's EULA prevents benching with non certified drivers, they may not be used in any reviews any longer.

Bah ha ha! That is pretty damn funny if ya ask me.

Peace,

:rofl

I find it pretty depressing that anyone can enjoy watching this situation develop. :( It's pretty sickening actually.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by Hanners
I find it pretty depressing that anyone can enjoy watching this situation develop. :( It's pretty sickening actually.
I'm sure you meant to add "except for Dig since he's a bit insane that way" but just forgot. ;)

Malfunction is just trolling, note how he's picking and choosing what to respond to and is using the same exact arguments over and over even though they've been shot down before? :rolleyes: