View Full Version : Iraq and Al-Queda link?
Seem there might be more to this story than what we knew. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103163,00.html)
Voudoun
11-15-03, 04:18 PM
Well, as the story says the evidence is `fragmentary.' Maybe there's something in it, maybe there isn't. I've never been convinced of a connection, but not dogmatically so. If substantive proof comes, then so be it. Having said that, I hope it doesn't come, because I am concerned about US policy/actions at the moment, and such a link would give politicians in the US, whose views I don't agree with at all, a justification. However, if the link is there and is proved then at least the truth will be known.
This may all turn out to be nothing more than a fishing exercise or politicised spin on evidence which isn't even fragmentary though. It's happened before, and it's something that has frustrated intelligence staff in the US, England, and Australia. If I remember right, Howard (Australian Prime Minister) was officially censored by the parliament for misrepresenting intelligence.
Some archeologists take a view (seemingly when they have a pet theory) that because physical evidence hasn't been found, that means that they haven't dug deep enough or in the right place. Sometimes something can't be found because it isn't there.
Voudoun
Right just as you tried to spin away from what they have documented. :rolleyes:
It is silly to say "I hope it isn't true". It is what it is wheth "we" believe it or not.
It is funny how those opposed to this war will do anything to ignore what has been known for a long time. Sad actualy.
Saddam and his Iraq has been a terrorist suppting state for a long time. I can't believe how short sighted the left is on this issue. The establisment of a form of democracy right in the heart of the middle east will have long lasting and great affect on the ME as a whole. Democracy is a very powerfull agument against tyrany. People will see what freedom really is and want it for them selves, just like China is doing.
PsychoSy
11-15-03, 07:29 PM
I can't believe how short sighted the left is on this issue.
Since you've mentioned short-sightedness, where was this damn memo when the UN Inspectors were looking around and Bush was selling a war with Iraq to the American people?!?! :wtf: :screwy:
digitalwanderer
11-15-03, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by PsychoSy
Since you've mentioned short-sightedness, where was this damn memo when the UN Inspectors were looking around and Bush was selling a war with Iraq to the American people?!?! :wtf: :screwy:
Well they hadn't wrote it since they didn't need it yet... ;)
Originally posted by UDawg
Right just as you tried to spin away from what they have documented. :rolleyes:
It is silly to say "I hope it isn't true". It is what it is wheth "we" believe it or not.
It is funny how those opposed to this war will do anything to ignore what has been known for a long time. Sad actualy.
Saddam and his Iraq has been a terrorist suppting state for a long time. I can't believe how short sighted the left is on this issue. The establisment of a form of democracy right in the heart of the middle east will have long lasting and great affect on the ME as a whole. Democracy is a very powerfull agument against tyrany. People will see what freedom really is and want it for them selves, just like China is doing.
udawg...
as of right now... incl this report.. the US has had more substansive dealings with al qaeda and the taleban than Saddam...
also while your views on democracy in the region are idealistic... the practicality of the same is a VERY different proposition... you have many more factors to consider than just iraqis who are for and against US occupation...
there is a reason africa has in general been difficult to follow into democracy... tribal loyalties are quite strong and more than a hinderance to the type of democracy the US wants to bring to Iraq...
optimism is great but perhaps more caution should be taken in the acceleration of such a plan (democratization of Iraq) wrt the significant local presence of various mullahs and the like... a very clear example would be afghanistan...
silence
11-16-03, 02:02 AM
Sazar.....western people simply can't understand some basic facts about region and it's past.
I tried to explain few times why transition to democracy is so hard, but most western people simply CAN'T undersdtand what i am talking about.
And i come from former communist block, where i have seen these problems.......
Take a look at former easter europe, where most countries STILL struggle with some basic democratic principles, more then 10 years AFTER the fall of communism, which came from INSIDE, without foreign military enforcing new solutions upon them.....
One of things that Udawg and most of his "hawks" don't understand is that regime wasn't Saddam and top 50 men he had.....it was large infrastructure, with EVERY single clark and "public servant" included.....every policeman......every manager......ANYONE with ANY kind of power in Iraq was PART OF SYSTEM......and most of them are affraid of what will come, so they stick to what they know and what they learned over the years, most of them will never understand what you want to acchieve there........NEVER.......someone who worked in on system for 20 years CAN'T learn to work in another just cause you have 100 000 troops occupying his country.....
People that were part of system, in countries that changed communism to democracy in FREE WILL of their citizens, STILL don't fully understand democracy.....in Europ, where people ARE so much closer to west, historically and in every other way.......
bah.........i stopped replying to Udawg's "fox" posts, cause it's pointless, but since there are few people in this thread whose opinio i respect i tried to explain once more.......
don't look at yourselves...look at Russia or former Yugoslavia....or Bulgaria.....Slovakia......and you WILL see what is waiting for USA in Iraq....how much work is to be done if your commitment for democracy in Iraq is real.....and i doubt that USA is ready for 10 years of this........
Originally posted by silence
Sazar.....western people simply can't understand some basic facts about region and it's past.
I tried to explain few times why transition to democracy is so hard, but most western people simply CAN'T undersdtand what i am talking about.
And i come from former communist block, where i have seen these problems.......
Take a look at former easter europe, where most countries STILL struggle with some basic democratic principles, more then 10 years AFTER the fall of communism, which came from INSIDE, without foreign military enforcing new solutions upon them.....
One of things that Udawg and most of his "hawks" don't understand is that regime wasn't Saddam and top 50 men he had.....it was large infrastructure, with EVERY single clark and "public servant" included.....every policeman......every manager......ANYONE with ANY kind of power in Iraq was PART OF SYSTEM......and most of them are affraid of what will come, so they stick to what they know and what they learned over the years, most of them will never understand what you want to acchieve there........NEVER.......someone who worked in on system for 20 years CAN'T learn to work in another just cause you have 100 000 troops occupying his country.....
People that were part of system, in countries that changed communism to democracy in FREE WILL of their citizens, STILL don't fully understand democracy.....in Europ, where people ARE so much closer to west, historically and in every other way.......
bah.........i stopped replying to Udawg's "fox" posts, cause it's pointless, but since there are few people in this thread whose opinio i respect i tried to explain once more.......
don't look at yourselves...look at Russia or former Yugoslavia....or Bulgaria.....Slovakia......and you WILL see what is waiting for USA in Iraq....how much work is to be done if your commitment for democracy in Iraq is real.....and i doubt that USA is ready for 10 years of this........
Stop crying about Foxnews. Look at where the story came from. The NYPOST hardly a conservative paper but since you know so much about what I understand I'm sure you already knew this. :rolleyes:
silence
11-16-03, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by UDawg
Stop crying about Foxnews. Look at where the story came from. The NYPOST hardly a conservative paper but since you know so much about what I understand I'm sure you already knew this. :rolleyes:
lol...did you even read what i wrote...or you just saw that i mention fox so you got your defences up?....c'mon...what i wrote has NOTHING to do with fox....
i just said that i usually don't reply in so called fox_topics......cause its pointless.....and your reaction proves my point......
Originally posted by silence
lol...did you even read what i wrote...or you just saw that i mention fox so you got your defences up?....c'mon...what i wrote has NOTHING to do with fox....
i just said that i usually don't reply in so called fox_topics......cause its pointless.....and your reaction proves my point......
You just contradicted your self in your own post. :rolleyes:
I didn't respond to the whole of your post because it was silly. You point is that democracy is not for every one because they do not understand it being oppressed for so long. I flat out dissagree with this idea. Freedom is a natural urge for humans. Whether you can express it openly or not, the urge is still there.
Don't get high and might on me telling me I don't understand humans or oppressed humans. You don't know the conditions of my life which brough me to the ideals and political side I came to rest on.
netviper13
11-16-03, 11:31 AM
http://www.msnbc.com/news/994201.asp
owned:
silence
11-16-03, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by UDawg
You just contradicted your self in your own post. :rolleyes:
I didn't respond to the whole of your post because it was silly. You point is that democracy is not for every one because they do not understand it being oppressed for so long. I flat out dissagree with this idea. Freedom is a natural urge for humans. Whether you can express it openly or not, the urge is still there.
Don't get high and might on me telling me I don't understand humans or oppressed humans. You don't know the conditions of my life which brough me to the ideals and political side I came to rest on.
you really do NOT understand what i am talking about........
it is NOT about natural urge........it is about how ppl work and act......
i knew you wont understand it........
I AM NOT MAKING ANYTHING UP HERE UDAWG........THIS IS HAPPENING IN MY BLOODY COUNTRY..........ALL OVER EASTERN EUROPE..............
you have no clue what i am talking about......and that is biggest problem you will have in Iraq........
you simply CANT COMPREHAND what it means to be part of such system......
you CANT teach 50 years old bearucrat new ways........we will tell you "i am 100% for democracy"........but he DOESNT understand it.........
bah.........this is exactly WHY i dont want to post in your topics.........
i am giving you examples.....FROM MY OWM experience in transition from communism to democrcy .......i AM telling you what CAN and prolly WILL go wrong........
i am not telling you are stupid or something like...you guys, in west....cant understand the problems........you never saw this happen............
bah...............
legion88
11-16-03, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by UDawg
You just contradicted your self in your own post. :rolleyes:
Don't get high and might on me telling me I don't understand humans or oppressed humans. You don't know the conditions of my life which brough me to the ideals and political side I came to rest on.
You remind me of that fat guy in the ESPN commercial on fantasy football. I'll let you figure out the rest.
democracy as a form of gov't is not for everyone because it is not a traditional form of governance in most place in the world. ie, tribalism, sect divisions, religious leadership, monarchies are more common than democracy. you can be free in these systems of governance, too.
iraq or afghanistan will not be democratic states as we know it unless they are allowed to evolve by themselves, ie, imposing a year to create a democratic state in iraq will accomplish little. that is governance under the gun, or under the threat of the gun, and it won't work. afghanistan is already starting to crumble as it is already fragmenting into traditional tribal differences.
silence
11-16-03, 04:42 PM
just as US citizen would have hard time accepting monarchy or dictatorship, cause his mind was forged in democracy.....many of those that lived in communism simply cant escape what they learned and how their mind works....
things that are normal in communism arent normal in democracy.......
did you know that 35% of Romanian population was helping secret police during communism?..........can you even imagine what that means??.....there was secret service informer in EVERY family in the country!!!......can you imagine that 35% of people you know is tipping FBI and CIA about ANYTHING they think might be even slightly suspicious?.....and you have no clue WHAT kind of thing where slightly suspicious.......
35%........one out of three.......
Originally posted by silence
you really do NOT understand what i am talking about........
it is NOT about natural urge........it is about how ppl work and act......
i knew you wont understand it........
I AM NOT MAKING ANYTHING UP HERE UDAWG........THIS IS HAPPENING IN MY BLOODY COUNTRY..........ALL OVER EASTERN EUROPE..............
you have no clue what i am talking about......and that is biggest problem you will have in Iraq........
you simply CANT COMPREHAND what it means to be part of such system......
you CANT teach 50 years old bearucrat new ways........we will tell you "i am 100% for democracy"........but he DOESNT understand it.........
bah.........this is exactly WHY i dont want to post in your topics.........
i am giving you examples.....FROM MY OWM experience in transition from communism to democrcy .......i AM telling you what CAN and prolly WILL go wrong........
i am not telling you are stupid or something like...you guys, in west....cant understand the problems........you never saw this happen............
bah...............
It is you who don't understand. This can be taught to them. They are not stupid but rather oppressed. You have to start some where. The birthing pains of freedom are long and great yet when it is born it is hard to deny it.
Do you really think I don't understand? Does Germany understand? Doe Russia now understand what it is to be free? Don't tell me it can't be done. There is a high price to pay for freedom and it is a long road.
It is you who does not understand freedom. It is you who does not understand optimism. These concepts are forgien to you and it permiates your every post. Your sig when you first came here was something like " a place God has for gotten" or something like that. I wagger it is you who needs to be taught about freedom rather than pointing to anther country that will go through a hard and long road to be free.
Anything is possible. Russia has an open market. Germany is how unified and Iraq will have a form of democracy and will be the down fall of tyrany in the ME. If it doesn't than we keep fighting those who oppose freedom.
Originally posted by legion88
You remind me of that fat guy in the ESPN commercial on fantasy football. I'll let you figure out the rest.
You remind me of everything I hated about JR highschool.
West Germany was a democracy that adopted the East (a half that is still trying to be accepted). Russia still has many problems.
It took the US almost 200 years to build its self up.
so, maybe long after we are dead, there will be peace in the mid east, democracy in iraq and afghanistan, etc.
I really don't know but is this Bush's sole problem? No this is a problem what has let go on for far too long. Much longer than Clinton, Bush and Bush Sr. We turned tail and ran in Beruit. Did the same thing in Somalia and after the first World Trade center bombing. You never run from evil. It will only assume you are weak and hunt after you.
UDawg,
You are not listening well. When an individual has roots in a former eastern block country, he understands things such as the ME far better than we simple minded westerners.:rolleyes:
The reality of the situation is that a person's own inability to accept or embrace freedom and democracy are being projected onto an entire region of people here. As you stated so eloquently, "Freedom is a natural urge for humans.". This is true in most cases, but it appears that it frightens some around here. If the argument were simply that change, in and of itself, were frightening I might buy it. The whole argument being put forth is that people are afraid of freedom. This is the nature of sheep, not men.
silence
11-17-03, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by UDawg
It took the US almost 200 years to build its self up.
yes.........there you go.......
exactly........
you CANT just storm country with 100,000 soldiers and change everyrthing...... IT TAKES TIME!!!!!
and i am the one that doesnt understand???
silence
11-17-03, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by bknblk
UDawg,
You are not listening well. When an individual has roots in a former eastern block country, he understands things such as the ME far better than we simple minded westerners.:rolleyes:
The reality of the situation is that a person's own inability to accept or embrace freedom and democracy are being projected onto an entire region of people here. As you stated so eloquently, "Freedom is a natural urge for humans.". This is true in most cases, but it appears that it frightens some around here. If the argument were simply that change, in and of itself, were frightening I might buy it. The whole argument being put forth is that people are afraid of freedom. This is the nature of sheep, not men.
as usual.....you guys see only what you like in my posts.....
i do like freedom...i am just pointing how bad things are in Iraq according to my own experience.......
and yes....it will take many, many years of US commitment there to build anything even close to democracy......
and bknblk.....i come from region that was in war for 5 years....so i do know few things how people think/react in that kind of situation......how many shells exploded near your house?
and bknblk.....i come from region that was in war for 5 years....so i do know few things how people think/react in that kind of situation......how many shells exploded near your house?
Trust me when I say that I am in harm's way often enough. Your prior proximity to danger is unfortunate, but do not for an instant, think that you can pontificate to me about imminent threats. It is unfortunate that men want to hurt other men at all. It is a good thing that there are good men out there that keep people safe.;)
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