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View Full Version : Nvidia has taken a page out of ATI's book


Line01
11-16-03, 03:40 PM
I think ATI had a plan when they shipped the radeon 9500 out on the 9700
board. Knowing that somebody would discover how to open up the pipelines on it and make it a 9700 so getting more people on board with
a lower priced card. To get a good user base going.

Now I think Nvidia is doing the same thing with the 5900 its around $210.00 and is the best card in its price. Most will over clock easy giving you
the same bang as an Ultra. So now Nvidia is going to regain some of the buyer's they lost. I am one of them and happy with my 5900.

ATI must got their plan from AMD:) When it took on intel. Its nice to have two big players going at each other we the buyer's win. Long live ATI and Nivdia. :D

saturnotaku
11-16-03, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Line01
Now I think Nvidia is doing the same thing with the 5900 its around $210.00 and is the best card in its price. Most will over clock easy giving you
the same bang as an Ultra. So now Nvidia is going to regain some of the buyer's they lost. I am one of them and happy with my 5900.


Ummm...noooo. First of all, a 5900 Ultra has 256 mb of RAM, all the budget priced 5900 non-ultra cards are 128. Also, within a month of the time that it was discovered 9500NP cards could be modded, they were redesigned. Now said 9500 cards are extremely rare.

ChrisRay
11-16-03, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by saturnotaku
Ummm...noooo. First of all, a 5900 Ultra has 256 mb of RAM, all the budget priced 5900 non-ultra cards are 128. Also, within a month of the time that it was discovered 9500NP cards could be modded, they were redesigned. Now said 9500 cards are extremely rare.


I wonder if ATI honestly thought we wouldnt figure out that 9500 cards were just 9700 cards?

saturnotaku
11-16-03, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
I wonder if ATI honestly thought we wouldnt figure out that 9500 cards were just 9700 cards?

Probably not or else the revised 9500s would have hit the market first.

Line01
11-16-03, 05:46 PM
saturnotaku
You really thing ATI is that stupid they must of known. If not it was one of the best blunders in video card history.

Also you think Nvidia not placing the FX 5900 at around 200.00 now is not
a plan two. It can almost keep up with the ultra. Knocks off any ATI card in that price range.

This is the big season now for buying plus we will see more I guess of what the two card companys got going on with the big show comming up.:)

ChrisW
11-16-03, 06:11 PM
The 9500 has been replaced with the 9800 SE. These are chips that have failed certain tests to become 9700s or 9800s. Some of them can be modded to re-enable the extra pipelines and may even seem like it's more expensive counterpart. Even if you can get it to seem to work properly, it is still running outside of their specifications, and thus, they can not offer you the longer warranty. The odds of a successful mod will depend on just how far out of specifications the particular chip tested. So to answer the conspiracy theorists: no, these are not just the more expensive boards with certain features disabled just to fool you. This is nothing more than a way to sell inferior chips (that did not pass certain tests) instead of throwing them away (which are worth more than their weight in gold).

cthellis
11-16-03, 06:31 PM
Offhand, I'd basically think that ATi just needed a card in that performance range, and since their one specifically designed for it (9600) wasn't ready yet, they had to fill the gap with a scaled down 9700. It would be silly to introduce as amazing a improved architecture at R300 was at the time and restrict yourself only to top-end cards. Due to the way they had to make it (using many 9700 parts already being made so they didn't have to cut into margins even more for the 9500) there would obviously be room for the technically apt to abuse it. ^_^

The meat is in cards of that level, so they'd want to tap that market as soon as possible, capitalizing on the their dominance of the upper end while nVidia could bring in no contenders.

For what's happening right now, I think nVidia is just responding to market pressures. The architectures and been through many phases of development and solidification, and though nVidia could count on sales in the beginning from mindshare and price their cards higher even while they were worse performers at their segments, the FX's were losing ground at all but the lowest levels, so they've had to lower their prices to compensate.

What we're seeing NOW with the 5900 non-Ultras, though...? Well their suggested retail price isn't THAT low, but we're getting some extremely good deals from even major retailers and huge rebates, which makes me wonder if they're planning on phasing them out. There were many good deals on the 9800 non-Pro's as well, and at this point they're a royal pain to get and don't have as good deals. If they were to be discontinued that would be one explanation, but I suppose another is simply a desire on nVidia's part to capitalize on the holiday sales by kicking them down really low.

Offhand, I'd think that the OC-ability just really doesn't factor into manufacturer's decisions, since the overwhelming majority of people just don't know how, or don't want to "risk it." The 9500's OCing came in different form that normal anyway, and some others involved flashing ROMs which is also even less done, so...? They're just byproducts of the way they're constructed but won't make much difference in total sales. 5900's are the same way. Certainly some manufacturers will try to make good OC-ing cards to tap the gaming/enthusiast community since they can price higher and still get the sales, as well as continually improving their mindshare, but for most people they'll just put in their card and barely touch even the control panel. Some 5900's don't OC well at ALL, and some do--gamers will search out the ones that perform best and consolidate around them. <shrugs> You kinda find that scattered all throughout product lines.

ChrisRay
11-16-03, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by ChrisW
The 9500 has been replaced with the 9800 SE. These are chips that have failed certain tests to become 9700s or 9800s. Some of them can be modded to re-enable the extra pipelines and may even seem like it's more expensive counterpart. Even if you can get it to seem to work properly, it is still running outside of their specifications, and thus, they can not offer you the longer warranty. The odds of a successful mod will depend on just how far out of specifications the particular chip tested. So to answer the conspiracy theorists: no, these are not just the more expensive boards with certain features disabled just to fool you. This is nothing more than a way to sell inferior chips (that did not pass certain tests) instead of throwing them away (which are worth more than their weight in gold).


If ATI is really producing this many bad chips. Can we assume it's fabrication proccess is not as good as we are led on to believe?

bkswaney
11-16-03, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
If ATI is really producing this many bad chips. Can we assume it's fabrication proccess is not as good as we are led on to believe?

I think it's great that they can use the ones that did not pass the high end test rather than trash them.

My guess it every company does it.

I bet Intel and AMD do it to. Makes sense to me. :)

ChrisW
11-16-03, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
If ATI is really producing this many bad chips. Can we assume it's fabrication proccess is not as good as we are led on to believe?
Well, you can't really expect all chips to be perfect. There are going to be some errors on certain parts of the wafers. The thing is you need to find a use for as much of the wafer as possible. The absolute best chips (the chips that passed the highest tests) become FireGL chips while the lowest become 9500 non-pros. If they can find a use for most of the silicon then they are not loosing anything. There has always been a shortage of 9500 chips and it took quite a while for them to build up enough stock to even release the 9500. I personally think it's amasing what ATI has achieved with the 9xxx series especially seeing as they have far surpassed everyone's expectations of the .15Ám process.

StealthHawk
11-16-03, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Line01
I think ATI had a plan when they shipped the radeon 9500 out on the 9700
board. Knowing that somebody would discover how to open up the pipelines on it and make it a 9700 so getting more people on board with
a lower priced card. To get a good user base going.

There was no master plan behind selling r9500s that were really r9700s. The fact is that ATI didn't have enough r9500 PCBs so they just sold some r9700s as r9500s.

EMunEeE
11-17-03, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
I wonder if ATI honestly thought we wouldnt figure out that 9500 cards were just 9700 cards?

They probaly did or thought about it later. At the time they were trying to fill the mainstream gap in their product line as they only had the 9000 and the 9700.

sxotty
11-18-03, 08:22 AM
I kinda believe they did it on purpose as well, I mean that is great publicity. I mean people are still asking "So you ca mod the 9500 to a 9700 right?" and this is forever after, it created a huge buzz.