Ok Im not a happy camper

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by Rogozhin
"Or we could do something useful and stop supporting Futuremark."


You made the proposition to chose between supporting futuremark or Nvidia-and you said you chose nvidia because futuremark has been invalidated by the cheating of 3d companies-I think this is simply naive and therefore said that I'd rather support a benchmark that is trying level the playing field and not the PRIMARY cheating 3d company.



THis would be like saying the SCAA is a worthless piece of infrastructure because a green bean importer is trying to pass off blue lintong as blue mountain-I sure as hell wouldn't support the importer that's fleecing the public-I'd support the SCAA.

Rogo

Gosh Rog, Ruined stated that we should wait for the next 3dmark drivers to inflate 3dmark scores, Saying I would rather just stop using 3dmark actually contradicts me wanting NVidia to inflate it's scores.


If the stupid benchmark didnt exist. Nvidia wouldnt be wasting its time on it. They are not going to stop. Because of what the benchmark represents. Anyone who knows me on these forums Knows I detest Futuremark as a company and it's benchmark. And I have not changed my position on that. Because I hate what it represents, a Number that sells graphic cards.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar my friend, You seem intent on taking every Anti Futuremark sentiment as a pro Nvidia sentiment. And thats not the case.

Of Course, We've heard this rhetoric before. Nvidia is buncha naughty poopy heads and they are dead set on ruining end user experience *sigh* Same old crap. Different week Rog. Save me from the rhetoric someone.

[reever2]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
It further shows that ANY benchmark is compromisable.


There, I fixed it for you Chris

[Rogozhin]

It's not rhetoric it's logic.

The conclusion is valid-regardless of the week it's propogated in.


I only brought your initial statement to it's conclusion-I didn't begin this diatribe.

rogo

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by Rogozhin
It's not rhetoric it's logic.

The conclusion is valid-regardless of the week it's propogated in.


I only brought your initial statement to it's conclusion-I didn't begin this diatribe.

rogo

You're just playing the semantics game. I know what I said and how I said it. You can believe what I meant is open for interpretation. But it's not. My Conclusion is to stop Supporting 3dmark. The Sooner Futuremark's relevence is brought back down to "Just" a Synthetic benchmark. Rather than a Gamers benchmark where Every Magazine and PC shops sells by its numbers, Then maybe I'll be willing to change my opinion.

I suggested that we stop supporting Futuremark. So the Benchmark will be brought back down to a level of which it's not as important in the market. Has nary a thing to do with Loving Nvidias Optimisations, Or Being supportive of Nvidia.

We can continue this tripe discussion all you like Rog, But it does not change what I originally said and meant. And I close again, a Cigar is just a Cigar. And you're interpretation of what I said is completely off base.

[reever2]

So the Benchmark will be brought back down to a level of which it's not as important in the market.

That does not depend on the views of the enthusiast or anybody who goes on msgboards to talk about videocards

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by reever2
That does not depend on the views of the enthusiast or anybody who goes on msgboards to talk about videocards

Of course what I say here is going to mean little in the grand schemes of things, I never represented myself as influential. But I can still suggest we show our support or we dont show our support. Do I believe things will change? No Because the embiciles @ Nvidia decided to put themselves back into the 3dmark program. That really aggrovates,

Once again, They are paying 3dmark to sell cards, And We're never going to escape this Merry Go Round that is 3dmark.

[Rogozhin]

I agree that graphics card companies shouldn't use maipulated 3dmark scores to sell their vgas.

But you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you insist on expunging futuremark from the soil of mass media publication.

I've taken the steps to curtail this manipulation by not selling nvidia VGA's to my customers and I've written a few emails to them using analogies from my own buisness (the other one) regarding their actions.

Who's to say that even if a new benchmark takes the place of 3dmark that nvidia won't manipulate it?

There needs to be more solid benchmark guidles but the companies that blantantly cheat need to be "black listed" or the guildines are useless.

rogo

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by Rogozhin
I agree that graphics card companies shouldn't use maipulated 3dmark scores to sell their vgas.

But you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you insist on expunging futuremark from the soil of mass media publication.

I've taken the steps to curtail this manipulation by not selling nvidia VGA's to my customers and I've written a few emails to them using analogies from my own buisness (the other one) regarding their actions.

Who's to say that even if a new benchmark takes the place of 3dmark that nvidia won't manipulate it?

There needs to be more solid benchmark guidles but the companies that blantantly cheat need to be "black listed" or the guildines are useless.

rogo

I have a dream, It's a dream where on benchmark isnt used to expressively to sell Graphic card, Where Benchmark suites are taken and people can make educated decisions.

Under the current system of "3dmarks" and how many people percieve graphic cards, This cant be achieved, That being said, You blame this entirely on Nvidia, And it's not entirely Nvidia's Fault. ATI and XGI are just as bad about promoting 3dmarks to how there cards perform.

Does anyone remember XGI releasing 3dmarks way before the first previews came about? What does this tell us? People are placing way too much value in 3dmark, Taking away futuremark's credibility and benchmarking system is the only way we hope to combat this.

[Rogozhin]

I don't sell XGI-right now it's nvidia and ati-and I only sell nvidia when a customer absolutely demands it.

I do blame nvidia more than the other three.


Rogo

[ChrisRay]

Originally posted by Rogozhin
I don't sell XGI-right now it's nvidia and ati-and I only sell nvidia when a customer absolutely demands it.

I do blame nvidia more than the other three.


Rogo

I guess it wasnt ATI"s fault when they spent more time optimising for 3dmark2001 on the 8500's release than actually getting games working? Have any doubts?

Check out early 8500 previews for 3dmark, Then check out ship date and actual games. ATI is just as responcible for putting futuremark where it is today as Nvidia is. This is an ongoing thing. Both Companies know how much 3dmark sells cards, So Does XGI, So Does SiS, So Does power VR,

Who do we blame for putting so much value in 3dmark? Nvidia? 3dfx? ATI? XGI? SiS? It all starts somewhere, Futuremark/Madonion would not be where it is today without the support of Nvidia, ATI and other players supporting there benchmark, Spending many man hours making sure all variations of it have ran well.

[Rogozhin]

I had the 8500at release and ran 3dmark2001 myself-I never saw a drastic decrease in performance with later driver versions.

I agree with most of your thoughts about this chris-just not that nvidia is less responsible than all the others.

rogo

[Gator]

Originally posted by Line01
I just saw this on 3dmarks.

GRRRRRRRR (http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=1562697)

Mine is the one on the left:( Every thing is a perfect match and the Radeon 9800 pro beats my FX 5900 bad.:eek:

have you compared to the same CPU speed at stock? 3dmark is greatly affect by bus speed, especially overclocked FSB vs stock. A K7S5A generally runs at 266fsb, and doesn't overclock very well beyond that. You need to look for a 1600mhz system with a bus speed of 266 before you can properly compared scores.

[Line01]

Maybe if 3dmarks 03 cant read my bus right its 133 not 66 what else does it do wrong.:) Like most said in here don't just look at bench marks.

[Hanners]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
Who do we blame for putting so much value in 3dmark? Nvidia? 3dfx? ATI? XGI? SiS?

The community?

[ChrisW]

This argument is hilarious! Maybe ATI should start cheating like crazy in whatever your favorite game is so this game can be destroyed by ATI. ATI can just choose whatever game they may be behind in to place their attack. That way, eveyone will start saying (insert your favorite TWIMTBP game benchmark here) is stupid and everyone should just forget about this game because someone is cheating in the game. I mean, it's just as easy to cheat in a timedemo as it is in 3DMark03! This way, the only games that will be left for reviewers to benchmark will have ATI in the lead!

I somehow doubt the same people in favor of 3DMark03 disapearing would be in favor of Doom3 being destroyed by these exact same methods used by nVidia.

[Gator]

Originally posted by Line01
Maybe if 3dmarks 03 cant read my bus right its 133 not 66 what else does it do wrong.:) Like most said in here don't just look at bench marks.

that's ok trust me, 3dmark2k1 and 2k3 read the ECS K7S5A as 66fsb even though it's really 133 (266). It's just a bug in the software with this board, but it's nothing to worry about it is still benchmarking you correctly. I used to have the same problem with my old K7S5A

[Line01]

Gator how does your barton 2600 run on the Asus board. I have beeen thinking of going that route or with Abit and A barton 2500

[Gator]

Originally posted by Line01
Gator how does your barton 2600 run on the Asus board. I have beeen thinking of going that route or with Abit and A barton 2500

I'm very happy with this computer. But I haven't bothered to overclock it all, so I can't comment on how it overclocks compared to the current revision of the AXP2500. But being they are nearly the same chip with the multiplier just being slightly higher on the 2600, they may OC about the same (just a guess)

[Line01]

Thanks Gator.

[Gator]

Originally posted by Line01
Thanks Gator.

I guess I should go into more depth for you. I used to have the K7S5A with an AXP1700. I wanted a little more speed, and when I upgraded it to the AXP2600 TBred it burned out the board and took the CPU with it! Very depressing to say the least. I also had a common K7S5A problem where it would forget the bios settings every once in awhile, and niether new batteries nor various BIOS updates helped.

I went with the Asus A7N8X v2.0 (non deluxe) and I'm very happy with it. It's reliable, user friendly, fast (using 333fsb now!) , and now I got dual channel mem. And the Barton2600 is definetly faster than my old AXP1700. Since doing this upgrade, my average FPS in UT2k3 more than doubled, from 35 to 75. My hardware tragedy was depressing, but in the end I guess it was worth it :). So yes, if you feel like upgrading your current rig, An Asus NForce2 board + Barton is a good way to do it.

[Line01]

Thanks for the info I was thanking about dropping a 2600xp or 2400xp in my board being the cheaper route but if it could fry it I sure would been upset. Thanks for the warning.:thumbsup: So it sounds like the barton 2500 and Nforce board is the way to go. May solve my sound card problems also.:)

[Gator]

Originally posted by Line01
Thanks for the info I was thanking about dropping a 2600xp or 2400xp in my board being the cheaper route but if it could fry it I sure would been upset. Thanks for the warning.:thumbsup: So it sounds like the barton 2500 and Nforce board is the way to go. May solve my sound card problems also.:)

took a look at your other thread
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21305&highlight=sound

ya know if your gonna get a new board anyway, get the Asus A7N8X Deluxe and that way you'll get the SoundStorm audio. It'll save you money, and it's not as good as Hercules, TurtleBeach, or Audigy2; but it's DEFINETLY better than SBLIVE ;)

Also, if your gonna get an AXP2500 now, make sure your ram is DDR400 or faster, because AXP2500 now has the multiplier locked, so you'll have to up the FSB if you wanna overclock at all