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View Full Version : 5900 XT/5900 SE confusion


AnteP
12-16-03, 02:39 AM
5900 SE has been available for quite some time now. I reviewed my first board two months ago.
400/700 MHz is the 5900 SE clock frequencies.

Now the 5900 XT should have 390/700 MHz clock frequencies.

According to the Tech Report and Firing Squad a 5900 SE is a 5900 XT and vice versa.
According to the nVidia partners I've spoken to 5900 XT and 5900 SE are two different boards.

The 5900 SE's I've seen in Sweden as of yet, is no where near the 5700 Ultra or 9600 XT in their price points. The few 5900 XT's that managed to get into price lists and such do have a price point that is able to compete though it's still higher than the two "current" mid end boards. Especially higher than the 9600 XT.

Cheapest 5900 XT: 1980 SEK
Cheapest 5900 SE: 2412 SEK
Cheapest 5700 Ultra: 1807 SEK
Cheapest 9600 XT: 1421 SEK *

* (and this board even has faster memory than ATis reference design)

gstanford
12-16-03, 02:52 AM
The battle will be largely fought in the USA I suspect with other countries being grateful for whatever pricing crumbs happen their way.

I would expect a lot of competitiveness on the price of the 5900 SE/XT in the USA though, ATi is hoping to extend the 9600 series downward into the entry level area and claim a larger share of the mainstream market. you can be sure nVidia will not allow that to happen without a fight.

I think you will see the 5700 repositioned soon and the 5600 series essentially take over from the 5200 pricewise.

AnteP
12-16-03, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
The battle will be largely fought in the USA I suspect with other countries being grateful for whatever pricing crumbs happen their way.

I would expect a lot of competitiveness on the price of the 5900 SE/XT in the USA though, ATi is hoping to extend the 9600 series downward into the entry level area and claim a larger share of the mainstream market. you can be sure nVidia will not allow that to happen without a fight.

I think you will see the 5700 repositioned soon and the 5600 series essentially take over from the 5200 pricewise.

Do you have any sort of "evidence" which leads you to belive that the 5900 XT is an "american phenomenon"?
The 5900 SE has been available in large quantities in Sweden for quite some time now and the 5900 XT has slowly started arriving in a few stores (I think there's like 5 different brands available right now.)

As for 5600, sure until they go out of stock.
I originally thought the 5600 XT would take over the role but hey, it's worse than a 5200 Ultra and barely on par with a 5200 non-Ultra on a 128 bit bus.

One thing nVidia needs to do though is lower the price of the 5700 non-Ultra, right now it isn't even notably cheaper than a Ultra-version in most cases.

gstanford
12-16-03, 03:11 AM
Did I ever say that the 5900 XT was an american phenomenon only? No, I didn't.

You can get the cards elsewhere, of course, but Americans enjoy better pricing than most of the rest of the world.

AnteP
12-16-03, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by gstanford
Did I ever say that the 5900 XT was an american phenomenon only? No, I didn't.

You can get the cards elsewhere, of course, but Americans enjoy better pricing than most of the rest of the world.

I meant the low priced 5900 XT's.
Why should they have a relatively lower price in USA but not in other countries?

Sure prices in general are lower in the states but the correlation between the different products shouldn't vary much.

RobHague
12-16-03, 08:44 AM
Seems they are pricing the midrange cards out of the market at the moment.

As even ATI cards seem to be in this trend.

The 9800SE comes in at around the same price as the 9600XT (120-140) this sort of means that they have undermined the position of the 9600XT, seems a simular story with the FX too range.

5200
5900 XT/SE

They are the only ones worth while, anything else falls in the range of one or the other.

Now we have ATI, and it seems to me that the only cards worth considering are...

9200
9800 or 9800SE

Could this is a glimpse of the future from NVIDIA and ATI? ONE product just clocked differently/crippled memory bus/cheaper RAM modules. That would give even the lowest end part access to the current technology (DX9...). If they can afford to cut the 9800/5900 down and price it so competitivly then i see no need for the midrange cards. :|

The_KELRaTH
12-16-03, 01:31 PM
From what I've seen so far the 5900XT (149) is about 5.00 cheaper than the 5700 Ultra in UK!

AnteP
12-16-03, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by RobHague
Seems they are pricing the midrange cards out of the market at the moment.

As even ATI cards seem to be in this trend.

The 9800SE comes in at around the same price as the 9600XT (120-140) this sort of means that they have undermined the position of the 9600XT, seems a simular story with the FX too range.

5200
5900 XT/SE

They are the only ones worth while, anything else falls in the range of one or the other.

Now we have ATI, and it seems to me that the only cards worth considering are...

9200
9800 or 9800SE

Could this is a glimpse of the future from NVIDIA and ATI? ONE product just clocked differently/crippled memory bus/cheaper RAM modules. That would give even the lowest end part access to the current technology (DX9...). If they can afford to cut the 9800/5900 down and price it so competitivly then i see no need for the midrange cards. :|

9800SE is slower than 9600XT though, and more expensive added to that.

RobHague
12-16-03, 01:59 PM
How you figure? AFAIK they were about level, i suppose the clock speed of the 9600XT could help it lead in certain things though - also are there not two versions of the 9800SE? One with a 256bit and one with a 128bit memory bus.

It really would be great if say NVIDIA launched the NV40 (lets call it the 'Geforce FX 2') and launched a spin off of it for each market segment.

Geforce FX 2 IGP (We can dream ;))
Geforce FX 2 Lite
Geforce FX 2 XT
Geforce FX 2
Geforce FX 2 Ultra

Sort of thing where each product uses the NV40 but just has reduced clocks, cheaper memory with the lowest end using a smaller 128bit Memory Bus too. That would save them development time on perfecting a cutdown midrange part too, which would surley subsidize the initial higher cost of making NV40 GPU's for all segments. But it would have the added benifit of games developers just having that SINGLE GPU line to create their game for, so even the lowest end part would have the higher end features. Its a nice dream, but i hope NVIDIA will eventually do this.

Uttar
12-16-03, 02:26 PM
RobHague, do you have ANY idea how much just the 175M transistors cost?
Even if the chip was clocked at 33Mhz and equipped with DDR333 memory on a 64-bit memory bus, you wouldn't manage to get sufficient margins for the $99 segment I'd say :p


Uttar

AnteP
12-16-03, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by RobHague
How you figure? AFAIK they were about level, i suppose the clock speed of the 9600XT could help it lead in certain things though - also are there not two versions of the 9800SE? One with a 256bit and one with a 128bit memory bus.

The 9800SE has a fillrate of 1300 MP/MT per sec
The 9600XT has a fillrate of 2000 MP/MT per sec

The 9800SE 128 bit bus has a bandwidth of 8.64 GB/s
The 9600 XT has a bandwidth of 8.64 GB/s 9.6 GB/s
The 9800SE 256 bit bus has a bandwidth of 17.28 GB/s

So sure, in a few cases the 9800SE 256 bit bus is faster.
Problem is, AFAIK, the ones with 256 bit busses are all AIW versions and more expensive than the plain 9800SE.

So personally I wouldn't really see the 9800SE as "threatening" the 9600 XT.

RobHague
12-16-03, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
RobHague, do you have ANY idea how much just the 175M transistors cost?

Not off the top of my head no. ;)

Even if the chip was clocked at 33Mhz and equipped with DDR333 memory on a 64-bit memory bus, you wouldn't manage to get sufficient margins for the $99 segment I'd say :pUttar

Hmmm, well as there are 5900 GPU's that fail to make the Ultra/Standard 5900 speed grades im willing to bet there are ones that fall even below the spec of the 5900XT/SE's - and im willing bet they just get scraped. Im not fully aware of all the financial pitfalls but i bet they could get a 128bit GeforceFX 5900 for 100. Since the semi-decent brand names sell 5200 Ultras anywhere from 70-100 then thats a nice idea.

But back to the GeforceFX '2', say they cant make an NV40 part for the lowest end thats cost effective for the price-point. At the very least they have proved they can put the higher-end GPU's into mainstream prices. Why get a 5700 Ultra when a 5900LX is CHEAPER? :) I think combining the new line of graphics cards with one core would make things less confusing for the consumers too. They wouldnt have a miriad of different GPU's to choose from, they would all be the NV40 with easy to understand higher/lower clockspeeds and a higher or lower memory bus. Which should be easyer to understand than telling them its 4x1 and not 8x1 and 'xxx' feature isnt on this but is on product 'y'. :)

No one agree?:confused:

AnteP - The Hurcules 9800SE AIW (256bit) (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/hercules_ati_graphics_cards.html) is 160. Now for me id rather take the 160 AIW 9800SE over the standard 9600XT for about 20-30 more. Considering all the AIW features id say it makes the 9800SE even more enticing

aapo
12-16-03, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by gstanford
The battle will be largely fought in the USA I suspect with other countries being grateful for whatever pricing crumbs happen their way.

You know, there are more people outside the United States than inside. :)

I bet it's true that the States are the most important single market for gfx cards in the world, but the rest of the world combined is much bigger than States. So it's not so irrelevant what happens for example here in Europe. It seems ATi is gaining markets at least in Finland, because nVidia cards are quite expensive here compared to their ATi counterparts.

AnteP
12-16-03, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by RobHague
AnteP - The Hurcules 9800SE AIW (256bit) (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/hercules_ati_graphics_cards.html) is 160. Now for me id rather take the 160 AIW 9800SE over the standard 9600XT for about 20-30 more. Considering all the AIW features id say it makes the 9800SE even more enticing

Ahh I wasn't aware of the pricing overseas. Here in Sweden the 9600 XT can be had for around 1500 SEK but the AIW 9800SEs are rather 2500 SEK. :)

RobHague
12-16-03, 04:47 PM
On the site it says its 256bit, 380MHz Core, 680 DDR Memory.... basically its a 9800pro but 4x1 instead of 8x1 :). Bet there is a nice overclock margin on the core and mem though, should definatley be faster than a 9600pro at standard clocks. With that memory speed too i bet its using decent modules... not bad at all.

cthellis
12-16-03, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by RobHague
The Hurcules 9800SE AIW (256bit) (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/hercules_ati_graphics_cards.html) is 160. Now for me id rather take the 160 AIW 9800SE over the standard 9600XT for about 20-30 more. Considering all the AIW features id say it makes the 9800SE even more enticing

This is definitely the card to go for for those who are not afraid of tweaking, as they are all armed with a 256-bit bus, and it doesn't take much more than a bit of ROM flashing to start using 'em. ;) The AIW abilities are just frosting on top of the cake there. ^_^

The 9600XT has definite extra bundling value, though, which makes it a cheaper "overall" value if one of the reasons for purchasing the card is to play games like HL2 in the future. You can sometimes get the coupon in other models as well, but you might not be able to. I'm pretty sure Hercules doesn't bundle it with that card.

BTW: People should write in and yell at Hercules to bring the damn 9800SE AIW to North America, as right now they have no plans to! :mad: :mad: :(

Of course we can take advantage of $250 9800 Pro's WITH the HL2 coupon from ATi's Trade-Up (http://www.ati.com/buy/traderebate/tradeup.html) program that the Euro's cannot! :p