When we going to see full 30FPS real time rendering for final fantasy movie graphics?

[AlexKN1]

How about the HULK?

[Kruno]

Wait a few decades.

[-=DVS=-]

As soon as you can fit 5 TON supercomputer into 5 Kg Computer Box :D :p

Offcourse lower detail versions can easly be rendered right now...

[Fiver]

When NV50 and R500 and DX10 come out.

[retsam]

ummmm not untill someone invents a holodeck ...not to sound sarcastic but how many of these damn thread are we gonna have .... i wish we could start hearing more on nv40 and r420 at least this is a start in that direction



rets

[bloodbob]

nvidia claimed they did it like 20 fps a few years ago on like a GF4

[AthlonXP1800]

It already did with NV30 with 128bit colours that matched final fantasy movie graphics and quality, it showed off screenshots comparsions after NV30 launched.

[Arrghman]

Originally posted by AthlonXP1800
It already did with NV30 with 128bit colours that matched final fantasy movie graphics and quality, it showed off screenshots comparsions after NV30 launched.

With noticeably lower polygon counts and much simplier and less realistic shading and lighting and at a lower resolution, sure ;)

[Nv40]

When we going to see full 30FPS real time rendering for final fantasy movie graphics?

most of FF graphics (not all) aprox~ in 3-4 more years!!! that is 2007~2008 :)
that is when the NV40 and the R420 will be standar mainstream cards or minimun graphic hardware gamers will have in their PC.. just for comparisons 3 years ago the Geforce3/radeon8500 was top of the line video cards.and today is the minimun hardware games developer ask for their games.

Originally posted by Arrghman
With noticeably lower polygon counts and much simplier and less realistic shading and lighting and at a lower resolution, sure ;)

indeed..

http://www.nvidia.com/object/final_fantasy.html

it was a high quality texture demo -impressive btw..,but it was a low poly version ,with a very simple hair and very simple scenes. some of the scenes of final fantasy are so complex that still we are many many years to see test demo of it ,just imagine the time for it will take to see it in a game. for example i have read somewhere that the hair of the GIrl is rendered at resolutions beyond 3k x 3k!!! almost no gamer have monitors that can go that far..also the scenes where when the GIrl is DREaming with huge landscapes and hundreds of monsters .. hehe. no way for a personal computer to that that for a long time. NV30 should be able to do near 90% of the -quality- of most of the scenes of the original movie but only very few ,a hand pocket selected carefully in real time.same with the Nv40 and R420. the quality is close to do almost all in that movie.. what we need is the performance and we are year(s) far here .

things like real looking .. water/hair /caustics/relfections/refractions still are in its infancy .in Directx9+ cards and are done with hacks and with lower quality. so the first generation of games with -some- of the cinematic quality like the ones in Final fantasy should appear in games in real time in 4 or 5 more years.. that is by the time JOhcarmack will have ready his next BIg engine/game after doom3.. :) and we will be discussing about the Nv60/70! or R600 :)

the latest PIxar movies MONSters and finding NEMO rely -heavily- on the things that directx9 video cards cannot handle a candle.. and that is realistic looking hair +Photonnmapping /and fluids like water /clouds +photonmapping (realistic lights).. in ~10 years we will see the second generation of game-movies and the quality of those should be on par with any movie CG released today. the performance should also be good for most of the basic scenes.

however if things goes really well in the Gaming industry -technology wise-,specially in consoles . it can be abit earlier than 2007~2008 of next idgame,that IF the PSX3 is as good as SOny is targetting it. :)

from 10~15years today CG movies graphics should be the standar in games . :)
beyond that time i really hope to see something revolutionary ,like virtual reality games at home with real life quality . :)

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by bloodbob
nvidia claimed they did it like 20 fps a few years ago on like a GF4

It wasn't rendering everything, nor was it rendering everything with the same detail level.

This has come up before(back when it was news) at this and other forums. Since much of the past history of this forum got wiped, I don't know if you can find the information here anymore, but if you look at other forums I'm sure you'll see the same thing.

[nobie]

I think Sony also had a demo of the FF movie running in real-time on their "GSCube" thing. Of course, it was a lower detail version as well.

[killermmn]

on a nv500!!:p :p

[AthlonXP1800]

Originally posted by Nv40
from 10~15years today CG movies graphics should be the standar in games

Um where you been since on April last year? Probably not read much on internet! You are wrong, it not 10 to 15 years from today, actually it 4 months from today.

For the last 7 years CG graphics were appeared in games, all of them were just only cutscenes clips, the CG graphics are very amazed, beautiful and stunned, it way no matched games' 3D engines. I remember the first game I played that had incredible best CG graphics in cutscenes were Wing Commander 3: Heart of the Tiger. :drooling: I kept dreamed about it, wished it were the game 3D engine. :(

I downloaded Doom 3 Alpha last year after it leaked, I launched the game, at first I thought it was CG graphics in cutscene and I was gobsmacked, realised I was wrong. Near the end of first cutscene at begin of game started with the camera turned around and went forward into the back of player's head as the top and bottom cutscene filled the full screen ready to play. Doom 3 graphics matched CG graphics. :D

I read Doom 3 interviews last year, it told Doom 3 engine's cutscenes will use the own engine rather than CG graphics clips because the engine matched CG graphics quality and also save space. In about 4 months time Doom 3 will release and it will be the first game in 2003 matched and replaced CG graphics clips. I hope other engines will compete with Doom 3 and replaced matched CG graphics clips ready to release this year and beyond.

[Morrow]

Originally posted by AthlonXP1800
I downloaded Doom 3 Alpha last year after it leaked, I launched the game, at first I thought it was CG graphics in cutscene and I was gobsmacked, realised I was wrong.

Sorry to disappoint you but Doom3's graphics do NOT match professional prerendered graphics in any way. They are even far from being the same quality. Looks like you are not that well informed on real-time and prerendered CG but realtime rendering is always a tradeoff between quality and performance where for prerendered animations the only thing that counts is quality (well allmost :) )

The only way a person knowing the difference gaming 3D and professional 3D could have though of D3 alpha graphics being prerendered is when viewing them at 1280x960 minimum with at least 4xAA. But since I'm pretty sure that you could not run D3 a year ago in that resolution and AA Level, you should not have been fooled by D3 graphics.

Gaming graphics never try to completely recreate prerendered graphics in terms of quality. It is even not needed because you can always fool the human eye and render CG at a lower quality level but without the viewer noticing it. Therefore you always have to say whether you are comparing "movie" CG with equally quality rendered realtime graphics or you are comparing prerendered CG with comparable quality to the viewer eye.

We can almost do Final Fantasy level graphics now with current hardware in realtime but with many tradeoffs which the observer won't notice... but rendering FF with exactly the same quality as the movie is many, many years away.

[-=DVS=-]

AthlonXP1800 stop talking crap , did you know that real CG model of Doom 3 are made of several milion pollys , but in game everything is cut down by factor 1000x or so... its 10 years minimum untill we have that kind of graphics in real time at acceptible frame rates :cool: Go find your self video were carmack talk in front of screen how they create ART for Doom 3 they showed few million polys frame of Doom and explained how they resample everything to low polys so it could be playable on current tech.

As N40 said Final Fantasy was made at resolution 3k x 3k ++ we are so far from haveing few million pollys per character in highly complex enviroments running on computer screen at 30 fps ;)

[AthlonXP1800]

Originally posted by Morrow
Sorry to disappoint you but Doom3's graphics do NOT match professional prerendered graphics in any way. They are even far from being the same quality. Looks like you are not that well informed on real-time and prerendered CG but realtime rendering is always a tradeoff between quality and performance where for prerendered animations the only thing that counts is quality (well allmost :) )

Well you denied it but ID Software confirmed it a year ago, interview on ID Software employee at E3 show last year, asked what customers reacted when they saw the demo? People watched the demo and asked "Is that Doom 3 CG graphics prerendered?" cos it looked like it and the staff told "no, actually it in the game", then people are very surprised. Doom 3 creator John Carmack was told in interview said Doom 3's high quality graphics are the same as CG graphics quality but the E3 demo only showed off on medium quality and it cant run high quality or it will caused the demo to crashed. The only way to get the high quality is when the game release in 4 months time. :D

We can almost do Final Fantasy level graphics now with current hardware in realtime but with many tradeoffs which the observer won't notice... but rendering FF with exactly the same quality as the movie is many, many years away.

As I said before, it already done with NV30, NV30 is capable of it because of 128bit colours, same with CG graphics' 128bit colours, you probably not heard of a small company called Exluna, Nvidia acquired it renamed the company as Nvidia Studio Relations. The reason Nvidia bought it in 2002, Nvidia need to get the necessary tools create CG graphics so that they can use the datatype of CG graphics in movies to load it into games based on NV30 and beyond that has the same quality as CG graphics found in movies.

[AthlonXP1800]

Originally posted by -=DVS=-
AthlonXP1800 stop talking crap , did you know that real CG model of Doom 3 are made of several milion pollys , but in game everything is cut down by factor 1000x or so... its 10 years minimum untill we have that kind of graphics in real time at acceptible frame rates :cool: Go find your self video were carmack talk in front of screen how they create ART for Doom 3 they showed few million polys frame of Doom and explained how they resample everything to low polys so it could be playable on current tech.

As N40 said Final Fantasy was made at resolution 3k x 3k ++ we are so far from haveing few million pollys per character in highly complex enviroments running on computer screen at 30 fps ;)

Well dont forget about Dawn. ;)

People thought Dawn was made of around 250 million polygons because it need huge amount to make a photo realistic model that look as real as a person. Actually it is really only tiny 150,000 polygons to create photo realistic Dawn out of 356 millions polygons. We probably will see this kind of graphics this year as it will been 2 years since 2002, it probably will delay further 1 or 2 more years into 2005, because of many games delayed like Doom 3, Half Life 2, Far Cry etc.

[-=DVS=-]

Originally posted by AthlonXP1800
Well dont forget about Dawn. ;)

People thought Dawn was made of around 250 million polygons because it need huge amount to make a photo realistic model that look as real as a person. Actually it is really only tiny to 150,000 polygons create photo realistic Dawn out of 356 millions polygons. We probably will see this kind of graphics this year as it will been 2 years since 2002, it probably will delay further 1 or 2 more years into 2005, because of many games delayed like Doom 3, Half Life 2, Far Cry etc.

So you see we woun't have 356 million polygons any time soon if we can run Dawn barely at measely 150,000 polygons :o and we need millions of pollys to make real life like games , dawn isn't so impresive at all and that only one object in games you got tens to hundreads , so no we woun't have that kinda graphics in few years for sure R500 or NV 50 whatever woun't have that kinda of power for sure...
Maybe once we have Tile Based Cards with 2ghz++ GPUs lotsa pipes to push those polygons :p
Sure games look good all new games look good but that doesn't mean we getting very close to real life like graphics. HalfLife looked good to when it was first launched :rolleyes:
Photo realistic textures are easy look at Max Payne 2 , however you need lotsa pollys to make someone look real , one dawn doesn't cut it .

[jimbob0i0]

Originally posted by -=DVS=-
however you need lotsa pollys to make someone look real , one dawn doesn't cut it .

not to mention only Dawn and that one branch are rendered - the background is just a texture that looks like ____ ..... I'd hardly call that photorealistic yet :P

[Nv40]

Originally posted by Nv40 from 10~15years today CG movies graphics should be the standar in games


when i say CG graphics , i mean Holywood quality.. a quality that is good enough to be present in a movie .


something like this..

http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/sf_gen_page.php3?printer=1&page=beans

or like the photoquality screenshots here..

http://www.3dtotal.com/home2/gallery/gallery.asp?cat=scenes&pos=433&lpos=60

Dawn demo is very nice , but the only thing here that is detailed is the girl .. the background is a 2d paint and the tree looks a cartoon.. that is the best that today hardware can do in ->realtime...


the day that you can play in a game with dawn ,driving the Oldtruck of time machine demo around the Gas station demo ,with a few BIG dancing monsters of the YEAH-demo destroying the garage with the HEllKNight burning everything ,it will the day that cinematic quality games (not only demos)will be the standar .. that is ~5 years more or less.. :)

the day that you cant notice a diference in quality between the latest movie Star WArs and computer games that day will be the day where CG movies graphics will be
the standar in games.. that is ~ from 10-15years.. if things goes really well in technology in the gaming industry.. :)

[Morrow]

Originally posted by AthlonXP1800
Well you denied it but ID Software confirmed it a year ago, interview on ID Software employee at E3 show last year, asked what customers reacted when they saw the demo? People watched the demo and asked "Is that Doom 3 CG graphics prerendered?" cos it looked like it and the staff told "no, actually it in the game", then people are very surprised. Doom 3 creator John Carmack was told in interview said Doom 3's high quality graphics are the same as CG graphics quality but the E3 demo only showed off on medium quality and it cant run high quality or it will caused the demo to crashed. The only way to get the high quality is when the game release in 4 months time. :D


As I said before, it already done with NV30, NV30 is capable of it because of 128bit colours, same with CG graphics' 128bit colours, you probably not heard of a small company called Exluna, Nvidia acquired it renamed the company as Nvidia Studio Relations. The reason Nvidia bought it in 2002, Nvidia need to get the necessary tools create CG graphics so that they can use the datatype of CG graphics in movies to load it into games based on NV30 and beyond that has the same quality as CG graphics found in movies.

Well first off, don't get excited too fast, you won't see any games in the next few years with graphics like in FF, Hulk, Matrix 2 or 3 or whatever movie.

You were right, some people had been fooled during the D3 E3 presentation but the reason for this is that those people were people like me and you and most of them had no clue about 3D graphics at all. D3 was shown at 640x480 during that presentation with medium quality texture as you said and the only way a well informed person could take the graphics for prerendered ones would have been if the projection was really bad quality, sorry...

Secondly, Carmack never said that the D3 graphics can be compared to movie CG. He has too much knowledge in this domain that he even would not think about saying something foolish like that. In fact he stated already during the development of Q3A in plan updates that the gaming industry is still far away from doing realtime movie graphics on the PC and you always have to use graphical tricks to fool the observer in making him believe to see much better graphics then are actually rendered (cube environment mapping comes to mind).

Check your facts next time, nvidia Final Fantasy real-time presentation was not made on a nv30 but on a GF3 three years ago which can't even do FP color calculations although those are needed for professional level graphics, not talking about the very limited shaders the GF3 offers. And again the FF demo had very low polygon models (especially the hair was dramatically reduced) and low textures. Not anything like the real FF movie.

Lastly, the D3 engine will NOT replace CG prerendered movies anytime soon like you said. Prerendered graphics will always be more stunning and visual exciting than the latest 3d engine of anyone.

This will also be my latest reply to your posts since you don't want accept the reality but rather stay in your dreamworld.

[Arrghman]

Not to mention that for CG in movies the resolution has to be very high and NO aliasing effects can be visable. Naturally, for prerendered CG, much more computationally intense (and thus much more accurate and better quality) antialiasing algorithims are used, you never have texture bluring...

Sure, people can look at the D3 demo and be impressed, maybe even be fooled. But if you have a CG artist recreate the same thing and do it prerendered and compared the two, it'd be easy to tell. Its not just poly count, its the things you don't think about, lighting and surfacing most noteably. I have never seen a shadow in a game that looked "real" as the technology to do that in real time simply doesn't exist now (at least not in video cards anyway ;)).

As much as I wish he could do complex area lights with full raytraced shadows, multiple bounce radiosity solutions, traced caustics, 9 pass antialiasing, subsurface scattering shading, complex volumetric effects and all the other computationally intense algorithims that go into generating CG for film in real time, we just ain't there yet!

[StealthHawk]

I don't understand why this discussion keeps coming up.

Movies are not done in real-time. Games, however, are. It doesn't matter how good game CG looks because it is pre-rendered and not done in real-time.

We are still very far away from reaching the kind of dynamic detailed environments that movies can show. Raytracing, real time dynamic shadows, high polygon counts, ultra high detail textures...we'll need a combination of all of these things. Doom3 is cutting edge technology and it doesn't have high polygon counts, nor ultra high detail textures, nor is the game out yet.

I'll go out on a limb and say that Carmack's next engine might be able to achieve Final Fantasy Movie quality. That will be 5 years after Doom3 is out. Which means 2009 at the earliest.

Meanwhile, movies will continue to look better and better. Games will always be chasing movies. Because it's harder to do things in real-time. And it's even harder still to render a dynamic environment which is unpredictable due to free player movement, compared to movies where you know exactly what the camera angle is, exactly what the scene should look like, etc. The fact is that games will never be able to catch movies. Because movie production studios will have access to the same technology at worst case, and they won't need to work in real-time. The bar will continue to rise.

[AthlonXP1800]

Originally posted by Nv40
when i say CG graphics , i mean Holywood quality.. a quality that is good enough to be present in a movie .

Thank for the links, I am really surprised but that not what I thought, now it turned that CG graphics clips in the last few years in games are in fact rendered in much lower poor quality. Many pictures on first link are very much more advanced quality than the last 12 years since Amiga time. I found this picture (http://www.3darrival.com/DreamHC/Download/SCHLAFEN.jpg) were rendered on Amiga A1230 with ancient AGA chipset, the AGA can render maximum of 140,000 polygons. Isnt it amazing the picture of bedroom seem real, it use up to 140,000 polygons for that picture. It 10,000 less than Nvidia did with Dawn, of course it will look great if Nvidia did add Dawn and the bedroom together a demo to make it up of 290,000 polygons. :D Well I think the disadvantage about the bedroom picture is that it probably took too long to design it Nvidia dont have time so Nvidia need something quick to show off Dawn with tree background.

When I looked through the pictures and realised I completed forgetten about Glaze3D (http://www.avsim.com/fsbench/glaze3d.htm) graphics chipset from BitBoys back in 1998 that had embedded eDRAM and capable of realtime rendering running games like today CG graphics. If Glaze3D took off with great DirectX and OpenGL support, of course it will certainly slaughtered 3dfx, ATI and Nvidia and change the face of PC games forever with revolution graphics. But it never happened, it made only 1 prototype chipset and was too difficult to developed Glaze3D. :(

[Nv40]

Meanwhile, movies will continue to look better and better. Games will always be chasing movies

yes.. but not always..
Jcarmack evn told that he predict that in the not so long future ,that we will see long films -CG movies- like the ones in holywood using game engines.. :)

because is cheaper to use a game engine ,if it can do pretty similar job of your THousands of $$ rendering package.. carmack next engine lets call it(D4) ,after D3 should be good enough for TV advertisements.. computer generated.. and if GOd listen us ,and he develops another big one (D5) ,in ~10 more years .. that one should be good enough for any low budget Holywood movie .means that the distance between games and CG movies will be smaller and smaller with every new game engine made by a a top developer. i think that if we study the rate of grow in quality between CG movies and games at one point in the future they will intersect.

in fact,i think that in the FUture lets say 10-20 years everything will be done in realtime movies and games,just imagine the cash$$ a company like DIsney can do ,selling the same movie from diferent angles of camera view ,without spending a single $cent for the extra work. ;) they just play the movie-game one more time ,from another perpective and sell it to you. any gamer that records their own demos while playing a game will be filmmaker.:)