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View Full Version : There is a God: Sega Model 3 Emulation


NickSpolec
01-28-04, 03:35 AM
Woot.

http://www.system16.com/model3/

Model 3 rocks.

Edge
01-28-04, 04:31 AM
Whoa, dude, a Model 3 emulator? Interesting to say the least, I never thought it would happen. I'm suprised at how many games were based on the Model 3 hardware, should be very interesting when it's done (I'd love to be able to play L.A.Machineguns again). Though most Model 3 games were ported to the Dreamcast, but there's still a few that are arcade-exclusive.

Edit: OMG, I just realised...THE LOST WORLD! God I want to play that game again :drooling:
When's this emulator getting done, I need it now!!!

sytaylor
01-28-04, 05:34 AM
AMEN :angel:

Ok so its gonna be years before even model 1 emulation is any good, or the stv-titan, and nobody emulated the saturn/stv-titan yet. That said MAME does seem to drive a lot of development in the arcade area.

Just noticed " The emulator will be released when it's done, so don't expect a release any time soon and don't ask about it."

Which is good news for them, meaning no n00bs asking why it isnt running at 100fpS'es on their p2 450.

NickSpolec
01-28-04, 09:34 AM
Though most Model 3 games were ported to the Dreamcast, but there's still a few that are arcade-exclusive.

Most Model 3 Step 1, Step 1.5, and Step 2.0 were ported (with the notably exceptions of Harley Davidson and Scud Race/Super GT). However, none of the Model 3 Step 2.1 games were ported (with the exception of Virtua Striker 2 '99). Like following...

Daytona USA 2
Daytona USA 2 Power Edition
Dirt Devils
Emergency Call Ambulance
L.A.Machineguns : Rage of the Machines
Magical Truck Adventure Ocean Hunter
Spike Out
Spike Out Final Edition
Star Wars Trilogy

Must... Have... Daytona 2...

fivefeet8
01-28-04, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by sytaylor
AMEN :angel:

Ok so its gonna be years before even model 1 emulation is any good, or the stv-titan, and nobody emulated the saturn/stv-titan yet. That said MAME does seem to drive a lot of development in the arcade area.


Actually, sega Titan/STV arcade games have already been emulated. Mame runs some STV/Titan games. NebulaM2(a released model 2 emulator), runs several Model 2 games in it's early state. Satourne, a sega saturn emulator, also emulates Titan/STV games. Model 1 games have been emulated with the Model 1 emulator, Modular. Albeit most of these emus still have bugs to work out with most games, the games are running. And most of the games are very playable.

NickSpolec
01-28-04, 02:58 PM
Actually, sega Titan/STV arcade games have already been emulated. Mame runs some STV/Titan games. NebulaM2(a released model 2 emulator), runs several Model 2 games in it's early state. Satourne, a sega saturn emulator, also emulates Titan/STV games. Model 1 games have been emulated with the Model 1 emulator, Modular. Albeit most of these emus still have bugs to work out with most games, the games are running. And most of the games are very playable.

Actually, it's called Modeler. And it only emulates the 2D graphics of the Model 1 hardware (like backgrounds and such), not the 3D graphics. This is due to the fact that the TGP chip that handles the 3D graphics on the Model 1 hardware has no public documentation available, and it is an extremely difficult chip to understand.

Edge
01-28-04, 11:56 PM
Wait...I thought Daytona 2 was ported to the Dreamcast (complete with Online play)? Or was that a different game?

And I guess The Lost World is one of the notable exceptions for non-Step 2.1 games that were not ported to the Dreamcast, thought I can't imagine why as it would've made a GREAT light-gun game to compliment House of the Dead 2 (L.A. Machineguns would've been nice, as well).

BTW, anyone else think it's amazing that some of those Model 3 games STILL look very good even compaired to modern games? Pretty damn impressive for hardware from 1996, wasn't that around the time that the first 3d accelerated PC games started hitting the market? There's a pretty stark contrast between Virtua Fighter 3 and GLQuake! Of course, the hardware probably costed a wee bit more as well ;)

sytaylor
01-29-04, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by fivefeet8
Actually, sega Titan/STV arcade games have already been emulated. Mame runs some STV/Titan games. NebulaM2(a released model 2 emulator), runs several Model 2 games in it's early state. Satourne, a sega saturn emulator, also emulates Titan/STV games. Model 1 games have been emulated with the Model 1 emulator, Modular. Albeit most of these emus still have bugs to work out with most games, the games are running. And most of the games are very playable.

The point i was making was that in the 10 years since their release they haven't been emulated anywhere near the level of the n64.. sure they show a few frames but in that amount of ttime for development i'd have wanted more, but i guess there just isnt the enthusiasm in arcade emulation..

Edge
01-29-04, 03:19 AM
Well, partially it's a lack of enthusiasm, and partially because it's simply more difficult to get technical data on the hardware to emulate it. At least with consoles you can take the hardware apart and see what's in it and maybe how it works, but with arcade stuff you basicly have to rely on tech documents and pray you can somehow guess the right way to emulate it. Not to mention getting Roms to test the emulator with is very difficult (who has access to an arcade cabinate that's willing to take it apart and upload the rom data?).

But in any case, I really hope this project puts out a fully functioning Model 3 emulator in the end. It'll probably take them a while, but it'll be worth the wait if I can try some old classics like L.A. Machineguns and Lost World without having to track down an arcade machine (they were replaced by other games at my "local" arcade).

Oh, and it's interesting to note that even Gamecube emulators are currently more advanced then 90% of arcade emulators out there. Certainly goes to show how much easier/popular console emulation is.

sytaylor
01-29-04, 04:58 AM
I've been offering my soul for anyone who could make a scud race emulator.. the closest ive got is the mp3s of some of the level soundtracks. I LOVED that game, if i could get it working witht eh forced feedback steering wheel, i think i'd consider never leaving my room again.

D.K.Tronics
01-29-04, 05:43 AM
The point i was making was that in the 10 years since their release they haven't been emulated anywhere near the level of the n64.. sure they show a few frames but in that amount of ttime for development i'd have wanted more, but i guess there just isnt the enthusiasm in arcade emulation..

It's got nothing to do with enthusiasm, it's more to do with a lack of hardware documentation.

If those programmers had the exact information that they require, say 5 years ago, we'd have an almost arcade perfect Model 2/3 emulator, today.

Look at this quote from their site

Someone sent us some documentation on the Real3D Pro-1000 programmer's API. Although it doesn't contain hardware-level information or descriptions of how the data structures are layed out, it will be useful nonetheless. The Pro-1K seems to be a bit more sophisticated than Model 3 but the 2 machines are definitely closely related

And there's far more documented detailed N64 hardware, out there, than any of these Model 2/3 boards.
Hence, we now have almost perfect N64 emulation with Pj64, and 1964.
AFAIK, Their cores are pretty much complete. And it's now down to the plugin developers to perfect their plugins.

Look at Playstation emulation, it's taken 8 years to get to this stage. Now we have ePSXe, with Pete's superb OpenGL 2 plugin, and all sorts of shaders to play with.

NickSpolec
01-29-04, 08:18 AM
Wait...I thought Daytona 2 was ported to the Dreamcast (complete with Online play)? Or was that a different game?

Na-uh. That was just an upgraded version of the original with 3 or 4 completely new stages. While it looked amazing (still one of the best looking games on Dreamcast), it wasn't Daytona 2 (though, they could have easily added the Daytona 2 stages).

sytaylor
01-29-04, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by D.K.Tronics
And there's far more documented detailed N64 hardware, out there, than any of these Model 2/3 boards.

..and thats mainly because of the fact there was a massive scene for finding that kind of information circa 1998 which shows.. enthusiasm

I'll admit arcades are a bit rarer than n64s but their documentation is just as secret, if not more so.

fivefeet8
01-29-04, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by sytaylor
The point i was making was that in the 10 years since their release they haven't been emulated anywhere near the level of the n64.. sure they show a few frames but in that amount of ttime for development i'd have wanted more, but i guess there just isnt the enthusiasm in arcade emulation..

Yeah. I agree. Just like the Sega Saturn emulation scene. It's probably one of the harder console systems to emulate, but it's taken quite a long time to even get Saturn emulation to it's current state with some emulators that are running games. Mostly buggy though, but a lot better than before.

It's funny, but it actually took SEGA to finally make it's own Sega Saturn emulator that runs many saturn games almost perfectly. It's commercial though, and only available in japan. I really had hoped they'd release it here, but..... I digress.

Arcade emulation has always been ahead of console emulation until recently with the new PSx/N64 emulators. Look at mame, it emulates over 2000+ arcade games from the very early arcades to some of the current arcade games. Mame recently has emulated the arcade versions of Tekken3, Tekken2, Soul Blade, and Soul Calibur(bad rom dump). And lets not forget NEoGeo game which is emulated today almost perfectly. In fact, any neogeo game that comes out right now in the arcades using the NeoGeo/MVS hardware is able to run on Neogeo emulators if they get dumped. Look at SNK vs Capcom, KOF2k2, Metal Slug 5. These recently arcade released games are already playable via emulators perfectly after being dumped. ARcade emulation hasn't been slow with 2d arcade games.

I think what's slowing down arcade emulation is the advent of 3d arcade hardware. But the same could be said about current console hardware. There is going to be a leap in 3d arcade emulation in a few months though. With the release of the next and final version of zinc(system11, system12, system22, capcom zn-1 zn-2, hardware accelerated arcade emulator). ;)

sytaylor
02-05-04, 03:03 AM
sorry to grave dig but i thought this was worth mention

http://www.system16.com/model3/

now with an FPS counter.. the longer they go without releasing this thing the more i want it.. :cool2:

NickSpolec
02-05-04, 01:13 PM
I need me some Scud Race and Daytona 2.

sytaylor
02-06-04, 02:22 AM
Will sell blood or body organs.. :eek:

intania
02-09-04, 06:33 PM
Too bad. The Guru still don't have the daytona 2 board to dump the rom.

http://unemulated.emuunlim.com/m3status/

Edge
02-09-04, 06:55 PM
OMG! They actually have the Lost World rom dump! Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy! Now if only they'd dump LA Machineguns and Daytona 2 we could all be happy :D

Emulator doesn't look too bad, either. It's missing some textures and there's quite a few graphic anomalies, but very impressive given the task and resources. I wish them the best of luck...just wish I could donate something to them...

NickSpolec
02-12-04, 12:57 AM
Another update to the site, showing some great progress. I wonder what type of hardware the author is running.

sytaylor
02-12-04, 02:07 AM
Yeah, he's getting 15 to 20fps.. which if he has a top end machine means this thing could be a few years away. That, or theres a lot of optimisation to do, but there is no way of telling with the types of updates they are giving.

Edge
02-12-04, 03:11 AM
Well, at least it certainly seems within the realm of playable. Also it's nice to see that the framerate is pretty consistent (only going between 15 and 24 FPS or so), though I'm wondering if that means there's a lot of extra optimisation to be done, since even on the 2d course selection screen it's only getting 24 FPS. The graphics are still buggy, but it's nice to see that it works with a variety of games. I wonder though...is it even using 3d acceleration? That could certainly atribute to the low framerate. I'm not sure of the technical specs of the M3, but I do remember that it had this wierd way of drawing quad-point polygons that's apperently almost impossible to replicate with a 3d card (they had to rebuild VF3 for the Dreamcast because they couldn't get it to render quad-polygons). Depends on their implimentation of it though. Wouldn't it be impressive if he was running it on a 1 ghz computer with a TNT2 though :eek:
Well, probably not, but I can hope that my 1.4 ghz will run it ;)

Edit: Haha, and what do you know, he's only on a 56k. Fear the power of the 56ker :p