Aphganistan, drugs and poverty

[silence]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3476377.stm

party that really got me is this :

The irony that many experts at the meeting were reluctant to mention was that the only people who have had any success in dealing with the drugs trade were the hardline Islamic Taleban, just before they were overthrown two years ago.

In 2001, in the parts of the country they controlled, they cut back cultivation almost to nothing, using harsh methods to enforce their edict.

The 185 tonnes of opium produced that year - compared to the 3,600 tonnes in 2003 - mostly came from the small area of northern Afghanistan then held by the Northern Alliance that later helped US forces topple the Taleban.
_______________________________________________


let's please not go into discussion of forcing taleban out ( which was good and had to be done ), but please tell me how is this good thing?
3600 tonns of opium??.....this isnt for their domestic market, that's for Europe and US, that means thousends of new addicts, more AIDS, more drug related crime....

did ANYONE think about these facts before attacking there?
why is it so hard to bloody think about possible consequence of your ******* actions?

and there is deeper issue here, one that most ppl in the west can't understand....relation between poverty and terrorrism....

[sytaylor]

How people use their freedom is up to them in a lawless nation. With help and time afghanistan law enforcement should be able to put a stop to all this, but right now its not strong enough.

[silence]

Originally posted by sytaylor
How people use their freedom is up to them in a lawless nation. With help and time afghanistan law enforcement should be able to put a stop to all this, but right now its not strong enough.


hmmmm....u know, taleban managed to stop it, with severe penalties they used, but i doubt that we gonna see that kind of law enforcment there again.

what i was aiming is fact that farmers there grow poppy instead of food....
and reasons behind that (cash basically, cause poppy pays better)

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by silence
what i was aiming is fact that farmers there grow poppy instead of food....
and reasons behind that (cash basically, cause poppy pays better)

Yaha, and they're choosing to do that, but when PROPER law enforcement comes along it will be enforced as illegal. Rome wasn't built in a day..

[silence]

Originally posted by sytaylor
Yaha, and they're choosing to do that, but when PROPER law enforcement comes along it will be enforced as illegal. Rome wasn't built in a day..

sure :)

i agree on that one, don't worry. thing is....why there is no PROPER law enforcment then? why no body did consider this fact before invading?

Aphganistan was always know for poppy and opium and only taleban managed to cut down production, while western allies (Northern Alliance) were allowing it on teritory they controlled.

such ammounts of cheap heroine can fund terrorrism pretty good....it's forking 2.3 bill per year....

[UDawg]

So let me get this straight. We freed a whole nation from a evil theocracy who had public execution and cut of hands and feet. You now say they were better off under that regime because they have a drug problem now? The only point you are making here and it is the same point you make over and over and that is "THE USA SUCKS". Just post a thread saying that and be done with it. :rolleyes:

[silence]

did i mention that i enjoy these boards much more since i put some ppl on ignore?........

[Ninja Prime]

Originally posted by silence
did i mention that i enjoy these boards much more since i put some ppl on ignore?........

:lol:

Typcial lib lol. Ignore anything you don't agree with. That's why we've won, and will win again. Even Clinton realised it.

[Riptide]

Originally posted by silence
did i mention that i enjoy these boards much more since i put some ppl on ignore?........
Quit with the whining. They are probably better off now even with the drug problem. I'm sure if the US had a taliban style government we wouldn't have a drug problem either. So what's your point? That we should've provided them with a DEA? Ridiculous. Nothing and noone is perfect so if there's a few problems after the ouster of the Taliban so be it. It should be expected and will hopefully get better over time.

[Sazar]

concerning drugs... much of the income from the opium production goes to funding militants and terrorists... like silence said...

yipee... no more taliban... who cares if the militants are producing more drugs now... THEY ARE FREE.. :D

[Sazar]

Originally posted by Riptide
Quit with the whining.

you have some PMS issues... perhaps a tampon would help ?

[Riptide]

Originally posted by Sazar
you have some PMS issues... perhaps a tampon would help ?
Would you like a side of cries with that whineburger?

[Riptide]

Originally posted by Sazar
concerning drugs... much of the income from the opium production goes to funding militants and terrorists... like silence said...

yipee... no more taliban... who cares if the militants are producing more drugs now... THEY ARE FREE.. :D
OK, you got me. We should've left the Taliban in control. Or, we should've funded an afghani DEA right? :rolleyes:

Unlike some of you, I expect problems like this to occur after something major like that invasion takes place. Over time it will hopefully get better but that country is not going to be perfect overnight. And it isn't our responsibility to fix *everything*.

Like sytaylor said, Rome wasn't built in a day. So don't expect it to be.

[Sazar]

Originally posted by Riptide
OK, you got me. We should've left the Taliban in control. Or, we should've funded an afghani DEA right? :rolleyes:

Unlike some of you, I expect problems like this to occur after something major like that invasion takes place. Over time it will hopefully get better but that country is not going to be perfect overnight. And it isn't our responsibility to fix *everything*.

Like sytaylor said, Rome wasn't built in a day. So don't expect it to be.

fact is.. there has been a drug problem for years... :)

I basically just use it as an indicator of militant activity (ie x amount of opium sales == y amount of munitions purchases)

I don't care about teh taliban.. they were helping terrorism a fair deal by themselves... just saying that increasing drug production is less an indicator of people's freedom's than is being put forth in this thread...

[Riptide]

OK, I gotcha. :)

With time hopefully some of these wounds will heal, including this particular problem.

It would be a real shame to see afghanistan go back to the way it was w/the lawlessness and the scum running the government. Ditt0 on Iraq (particularly the scum part).

[Saint Lucifer]

I think Silence's point was that no matter what, terrorists benefit from the situation in Afghanistan. On one hand, they could control an area - on the other, they can use the opiates to fund them. Essentially, if they prepared more, troops could control the area better so that the natives are free, but still unable to grow poppy.

'Damned if you do, damned if you don't' is the phrase that comes to mind...

Is that what you had in mind, Silence?

[Riptide]

Originally posted by Saint Lucifer
'Damned if you do, damned if you don't' is the phrase that comes to mind...

Is that what you had in mind, Silence?
When it's presented like "Why didn't you mother******* think about this before invading" or whatever that's definitely NOT the impression I get. But maybe I misunderstood. Perhaps further explanation(s) will be forthcoming then.

[silence]

Originally posted by Riptide
When it's presented like "Why didn't you mother******* think about this before invading" or whatever that's definitely NOT the impression I get. But maybe I misunderstood. Perhaps further explanation(s) will be forthcoming then.

oki.....
did u miss this part in my first post?? -> "let's please not go into discussion of forcing taleban out ( which was good and had to be done ), but please tell me how is this good thing?"


2.3 bill drug trade is not local problem, Aphganistan doesn't have so many addicts, there are 2 questions here.....
1) what is that cash used for?
2) where are all those drugs sold?

and something else you guys missed completly......flame me as much as u like, but you missed it.....during taleban drug production was completly stopped in teritories under their control, but 2 provinces under control of Northern Alliance had large poppy fields and were active in drug trades.....

but NA was against taleban and it was decided not to interferr in those trades...9/11 happened and taleban had to go (which i support completly and let's not go into that).....

but.....

have u any idea how much damage to western countries such quantities of cheap heroine can do?......how many new kids will "try" it?......and get hooked?
how much drug related crime this brings?.....

On one hand, they could control an area - on the other, they can use the opiates to fund them. Essentially, if they prepared more, troops could control the area better so that the natives are free, but still unable to grow poppy.

exactly......this brings more cash to Al-Quaeda then anything else prolly + creates enormous problem for western society ......
not to mention that local warlords gain much more power with such cash flow making it so much harder to stabilise that country....

maybe noone thought about it before, ok.....i can live with that, but i don't understand that nothing is done to stop it.......

[UDawg]

Originally posted by silence
did i mention that i enjoy these boards much more since i put some ppl on ignore?........

Oh get real, you read my post and it bugged the heck out of you.

You are anti-American and I am pro America. You hate me because I defend my country. You come on this board and spew your hatred about a country that helped your country out and then you spit in our faces. When some one like me tells you how it really is you cry and put me on ignore. Well if you can't handle it then don't speak up and talk out your butt.

Oh and you will read this post also. ;)

[Riptide]

Welp, considering they have a hell of a time stopping the flow or drugs into this country I guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out exactly what they could've done to stop it over there. We have the DEA right in our own back yard and we can't stop it, so why would it be any more feasible there?

[UDawg]

Originally posted by Saint Lucifer
I think Silence's point was that no matter what, terrorists benefit from the situation in Afghanistan. On one hand, they could control an area - on the other, they can use the opiates to fund them. Essentially, if they prepared more, troops could control the area better so that the natives are free, but still unable to grow poppy.

'Damned if you do, damned if you don't' is the phrase that comes to mind...

Is that what you had in mind, Silence?

No his point is how bad the US is and how we make things worse. It is our fault poppies are on the earth, cancer is our fault, his civil war is our fault, 9/11 is our fault ect ect. We are the center of all that is evil.

[silence]

Originally posted by Riptide
Welp, considering they have a hell of a time stopping the flow or drugs into this country I guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out exactly what they could've done to stop it over there. We have the DEA right in our own back yard and we can't stop it, so why would it be any more feasible there?



don't u think fighting the drug war on it's source would help more then bringing it on streets of western cities (please note i don't use US, cause i really think this isn't just about US).

have u any idea how much is made in drugs trade?...i mean, 1 ton of opium costs some petty $, which is already at least 1 or 2 steps above those poor farmers that grow that sh|t.....ones that acctually grow it, get really lousy cash for it...

wouldn't it be better if those farmers get some cash to grow other stuff instead?



ohh.....btw.....i know very well what i am talking about when i talk about drug problem, Kosovo is also pretty large exporter of heroine and albanian mafia is holding some 50% of heroine trades in Europe....
they grew really big lately, since Kosovo and Albania are lawless and there is no way u can enforce laws down there....

if u wanna we can keep this discussion open without mentioning Aphganistan and US role there, cause NATO and Europe are doing just as lousy job in Kosovo/Albania concerning same problem....

i mean.....i just wanna open discussion here, not that "u hate USA" sh|t from some ppl....

so if we have to bash NATO or Europeans....be my guest.....

[Riptide]

If we go after the source we still get critisizm for it. It's unavoidable because there is almost always going to be some negative aspect to it. Look at colombia: we go after the source there (spray the coca fields) and still get trashed for it because the runoff ends up hurting the farmers in the area.

Giving checks out carte blanche isn't the answer either. That's like being held hostage to them in order to keep them from doing something. Screw that idea...

I still think trying legalization would be a better idea but that's an ENTIRE other thread. ;)

[UDawg]

Originally posted by silence
i mean.....i just wanna open discussion here, not that "u hate USA" sh|t from some ppl....

so if we have to bash NATO or Europeans....be my guest.....

LOL you did read it. LMAO!!!

[silence]

Originally posted by Riptide
If we go after the source we still get critisizm for it. It's unavoidable because there is almost always going to be some negative aspect to it. Look at colombia: we go after the source there (spray the coca fields) and still get trashed for it because the runoff ends up hurting the farmers in the area.

Giving checks out carte blanche isn't the answer either. That's like being held hostage to them in order to keep them from doing something. Screw that idea...

I still think trying legalization would be a better idea but that's an ENTIRE other thread. ;)


ya, i know.
i am not for check, that can be abused to easily.
IMO, one way might be some sort of govermant funding, but not blank chack. something like buying crops from them at certain price tags, giving them ability to sell their crops outside their countries....there are some ways to remove few steps between farmer and consumer, making possible for farmer to make more money.....

and legalisation...heh....that would remove extra profits drug dealers make and would give more control to govermants...more risk == more cash.....