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the_archer
02-26-04, 03:53 PM
http://www.nvidia.com/object/nzone_doom3_home.html
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?s=&postid=277887

Mariner
02-26-04, 03:57 PM
Oooh. I wonder why that i$ the ca$e?

saturnotaku
02-26-04, 03:58 PM
Ju$t like Valve recommend$ ATI for Half-Life 2. :eek:

ReDeeMeR
02-26-04, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by saturnotaku
Ju$t like Valve recommend$ ATI for Half-Life 2. :eek:

In that case it should run quite bit better on teh big NV's but I dont see how :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Is doom made exclusively with CG or something?

Sazar
02-26-04, 04:17 PM
OGL tends to run better on nv anyways init?

theultimo
02-26-04, 04:20 PM
I think its because it uses specific NV_PP OpenGl extentions, right?

Nutty
02-26-04, 04:34 PM
Because during the Z only pass, and stencil passes, NV can do 8 pixels per clock, and they run at quite a higher clock rate.

Theres also Ultra-shadow which helps cut down on fill-rate, and the fact that one of the many rendering modes Doom3 has, is optimized for NV3X's FP16 mode, which runs faster than ATI's FP24 mode with negligable visual differences.

howard stern
02-26-04, 04:34 PM
Just so there is no misunderstanding about valve-HL2 they did not put any code in the game to make it run better on ATI's hardware it is just better at running DX9 games, as a matter of fact they had to put tons of extra code just so the game was playable on Nvidia's hardware. If ID put code in there game to make it run better on Nvidia's hardware that is just wrong and they will pay for that mistake in sales. I own video cards by both nvidia and ATI and there is no question the ATI is making better hardware right now but that might all change when the next crop of cards come out in a month or 2.

Nutty
02-26-04, 04:45 PM
If ID put code in there game to make it run better on Nvidia's hardware that is just wrong and they will pay for that mistake in sales. I own video cards by both nvidia and ATI and there is no question the ATI is making better hardware right now but that might all change when the next crop of cards come out in a month or 2.


Theres nothing wrong with exploiting the potential of each hardware. NV hardware has additional features exposed in OpenGL that ATI simply didn't have, that is why JC coded them up, just as he always has done for previous games.

Its not only id software that do this either. Would you rather all the NV card owners are unable to make use of their Ultra-shadow feature that speeds up stencil volume shadows, just because ATI doesn't have it? :rolleyes:

Its a game doesn't go to the extra lengths to utilize extra features of the hardware, then the engine coder is obviously lazy. Imagine a PS2 coder saying, "Oh, I'm not gonna use the vector processors, because the gamecube doesn't have them, so it wouldn't be fair.." I mean really.... I cant believe some ppl..

howard stern
02-26-04, 05:22 PM
Nutty of course I believe that if nvidia hardware uses features that other companies don't use they should not pay the price for that. What I am saying is that each company like ID should follow the DX9 standard then add the features from the chip companies. Some brought up the point that maybe Id used CG code that is Proprietary to nvidia that would be wrong. If every game company started with a DX9 game then added features then we would not be having this friendly talk right now. Valve simply followed the DX9 standard and found that ATI's hardware was much better at running there game. hope this clears things up

Nutty
02-26-04, 05:23 PM
Problem is id, dont use DirectX, they use OpenGL. And unlike DX, there can be completely new and different features available on one card, that doesn't exist on another.

It's what makes OpenGL fun... :D

saturnotaku
02-26-04, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Nutty
It's what makes OpenGL fun... :D

Tru dat! :spongebob

Gator
02-26-04, 05:59 PM
Well, it doe$n't really matter, I mean UT2003 recommend$ Nvidia al$o, and yet it work$ perfectly fine on ATI card$ too. It'$ really all just a logo, there i$ no rea$on to a$$ume that $omeone paid off $omeone el$e.

:D

Mariner
02-26-04, 06:38 PM
Hey - I $tarted that fir$t! :D

I don't think that there is much doubt that Doom3 will run faster on NV hardware - after all, Carmack has written the special path for the GFFX line which (I believe) uses a mixture of FP16 and FX12. ATI's cards on the other hand will use FP24 at least all the way through.

Also remember that NV virtually designed their NV3X line around the way Carmack is doing the rendering in D3 and for all it's graphical goodness it is still only equivalent to a DX7 game - i.e. no shaders.

I expect both of the new uber-cards will play the game well, though.

Nutty
02-26-04, 07:10 PM
for all it's graphical goodness it is still only equivalent to a DX7 game - i.e. no shaders.

No, thats not correct. It uses vertex shaders and pixel shaders of both DX8 class, and DX9 class. Just because theres not much visual change between NV30/R300 path and GF1 path doesn't mean it doesn't use the features.

DivotMaker
02-26-04, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Gator
Well, it doe$n't really matter, I mean UT2003 recommend$ Nvidia al$o, and yet it work$ perfectly fine on ATI card$ too. It'$ really all just a logo, there i$ no rea$on to a$$ume that $omeone paid off $omeone el$e.

:D

"TWIMTBP" and "Get In The Game" are marketing agreements. Yes, the developers do have to add some special feature(s) when developing games with these agreements in mind. Otherwise, why have them and make such investments in them?

My favorite game is Tiger Woods 2004, a DX9 and TWIMTBP game. What I find incredibly ironic is that the game runs on average 50-80% faster on a 9800XT than it does on a 5950 Ultra. My experience is similar in NHL, but the performance is somewhat closer due to the fact that NHL 2004 is basically a DX8 game. Just because a software publisher recommends a specific vendor to run his software, does not always mean that he is indeed correct. In Carmack's case, I tend to believe him with regard to DOOM III, but if DX9 was the chosen format, I would tend to disagree....

astroguy
02-26-04, 09:16 PM
Not surprising. NVIDIA worked closely with carmack and id software when designing their NV3x architecture, hence the partial precision modes and ultra shadow. Both which benefits NVIDIA in DooM3. DooM3 is a perfect example where NVIDIA's partial precision mode comes in use, where it doesn't need the full 24+ bit precision.

|JuiceZ|
02-26-04, 10:57 PM
Sometimes you guys really crack me up. Everyone knows ID Software has strong developer relations w/ Nvidia. And now that they're recommending running their game using nvidia's hardware its a big deal....go figure :rolleyes:

As mentioned theres no diff between this vs ATi & Valve. Take UT2003 for example, if a game runs great on your platform, who cares whats recommended? I certainly cannot see ATi's card getting shafted no matter what extra ogl extensions were added to take advantage of NV3x architeture. In the end a good card will be a good card regardless.

I think Nutty said it best:

Theres nothing wrong with exploiting the potential of each hardware. NV hardware has additional features exposed in OpenGL that ATI simply didn't have, that is why JC coded them up, just as he always has done for previous games.

Its not only id software that do this either. Would you rather all the NV card owners are unable to make use of their Ultra-shadow feature that speeds up stencil volume shadows, just because ATI doesn't have it?

Its a game doesn't go to the extra lengths to utilize extra features of the hardware, then the engine coder is obviously lazy. Imagine a PS2 coder saying, "Oh, I'm not gonna use the vector processors, because the gamecube doesn't have them, so it wouldn't be fair.." I mean really.... I cant believe some ppl..

:thumbsup:

zoomy942
02-26-04, 11:42 PM
so, with all this nv and oom stuff, would a 5700 even run this game well? i love mine, but i am gonna get a 5900NU for doom3.

ChrisW
02-27-04, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by BigBerthaEA
"TWIMTBP" and "Get In The Game" are marketing agreements.
To sum it all up...

"TWIMTBP"=extra programming to get nVidia cards running at a decent speed/no extra programming for ATI cards (Doom III)

"Get In The Game"=extra programming to get nVidia cards running at a decent speed/no extra programming for ATI cards (HL2)

The only read difference between the two programs is some "TWIMTBP" games are programmed with special effects available only on nVidia based cards that are prefectly capable of running on ATI cards but are just disabled using device detection. This is a sleazy tactic designed to artificially make nVidia boards more attractive. That and some games are purposely compiled with Cg shaders to slow down ATI cards.

jAkUp
02-27-04, 01:16 AM
god... this whole "The Way it's Meant to be Gayed" is so lame it makes me wanna puke :barf:

saturnotaku
02-27-04, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by ChrisW
The only read difference between the two programs is some "TWIMTBP" games are programmed with special effects available only on nVidia based cards that are prefectly capable of running on ATI cards but are just disabled using device detection. This is a sleazy tactic designed to artificially make nVidia boards more attractive. That and some games are purposely compiled with Cg shaders to slow down ATI cards.

Uh oh, looks like Hellbinder has returned. Guess his scourge won't ever go away.

But people, Doom III on an ATI card will be running on the standard ARB OpenGL path. And it will run really damn well.

Incidentally Painkiller has a TWIMTBP game and it runs fantastic on my 9800.

jbirney
02-27-04, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by saturnotaku
Uh oh, looks like Hellbinder has returned. Guess his scourge won't ever go away.


But just like Hellbinder he does have a valid point. We have seen many cases were features that can run on one IHV were not enabled for that IHV only.

As mentioned theres no diff between this vs ATi & Valve.

There is a big differnce in part. ATI does not need a special path in order to get acceptable prefromance out of HL2. NV does need this path for D3. But other than that your spot on :)

Theres nothing wrong with exploiting the potential of each hardware. NV hardware has additional features exposed in OpenGL that ATI simply didn't have, that is why JC coded them up, just as he always has done for previous games.

Yeap I agree!

Its not only id software that do this either. Would you rather all the NV card owners are unable to make use of their Ultra-shadow feature that speeds up stencil volume shadows, just because ATI doesn't have it?

Come on there has been a ton of special features that have gone on with little support. In fact if both major IHVs dont have the same feature, then chances are only a small fraction will ever see the light of day. Truform, Bumb Mapping on Matrox cards, ect. There are some nice DX9 effects that the R3xx cards can do but the nV cards dont support the call. So do am I gonna to miss out because the FX line can not make that call? Point is, that its great of the extra feature gets used, but its been few and far between when we look at past history....

sxotty
02-27-04, 09:36 AM
Truform has actually been available in games with openGL like RTCW and others. Unfortunately ATI dropped support for it.

Youguys crack me up, a good developer writes code to take advantage of whatever hardware features are available. Carmack has a different code path for the 8500/9100 for ATI as well oh boy how terrible....

The truth is crappy games have a wider margin of speed between ATI and NV b/c ATI has undoubtably followed the dx9 spec better, but well coded games mean that the two cards are actually closer in performance b/c the developers are not too dumb to write code using their brains instead of a cookbook...

zoomy942
02-27-04, 09:49 AM
well as long as my 5700 runs doom 3 well i dont care. i am tempted to buy a 5900 and sell this card, just for doom! i cant wait to play it.