View Full Version : I though Clinton solved Kosovo
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114728,00.html
The same damn group we whent in to help. Is now killing Christians and burning down orthodox Christian churches but we were told the christians were bad in that war and the muslims were good.
Such BS! they both are messed up and we should not have supported either of them, especially the muslims.
silence
03-20-04, 04:05 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114728,00.html
The same damn group we whent in to help. Is now killing Christians and burning down orthodox Christian churches but we were told the christians were bad in that war and the muslims were good.
Such BS! they both are messed up and we should not have supported either of them, especially the muslims.
so it's all christian<>muslim fight in the world for you?...u really have issues here.
just FYI, albanians are both christian and muslim, something like 70/30 ...but i guess you knew that when u started another "muslims are all bad, we need to nuke them" thread?
next time at leats get ur facts before starting......
Don't worry about what I think silence. Try for once to post on the topic and not me. I'm kinda tired of it. If you don't like what I post then don't respond to it.
Saint Lucifer
03-20-04, 04:37 PM
What you think is the topic when you editorialize.
the muslim albanians kill the christian albanians, the christians return the favour. one group burns down a chuch, the other burns down a mosque. all are albanians united in their hatred and mistrust of each other, so there seems to be enough blame to go around. that's what happens when you throw different ethnic groups into one country and tell them to live together happily.
What you think is the topic when you editorialize.
No I am not the topic. You guys need to learn the difference on commenting on the topic and me. To date you guys can't do that.
and the NATO intervention in 1999 was more about Serbian attempts of genocide and retaining Kosovo under the authority of Serbia, not which side was better or worse (or christian and muslim). good and bad are terms media and politicians use to galvanize support for one side or another. Milosevic, if you didn't know, is being tried for war crimes.
Saint Lucifer
03-20-04, 06:25 PM
No I am not the topic. You guys need to learn the difference on commenting on the topic and me. To date you guys can't do that.
The second you said "Such BS! they both are messed up and we should not have supported either of them, especially the muslims." you turned the topic into what you think about the situation. The reason is that you stated your opinion on the situation, thus opening the door to questioning your logic and reasoning.
I don't know who you're used to talking to, but if I express an opinion I expect to be called on to tell why I think a certain way.
If you want to post a topic that doesn't turn into something about you, don't express a strong opinion. In other words, keep your statements neutral.
vampireuk
03-20-04, 06:28 PM
The problem with UN peacekeepers is that they don't use force. Fire a few 50 cals and those idiots will go running
The second you said "Such BS! they both are messed up and we should not have supported either of them, especially the muslims." you turned the topic into what you think about the situation. The reason is that you stated your opinion on the situation, thus opening the door to questioning your logic and reasoning.
I don't know who you're used to talking to, but if I express an opinion I expect to be called on to tell why I think a certain way.
If you want to post a topic that doesn't turn into something about you, don't express a strong opinion. In other words, keep your statements neutral.
You just don't get it do you. Move along.
Saint Lucifer
03-20-04, 07:33 PM
Odd. I was beginning to think you were the one who doesn't get it.
Odd. I was beginning to think you were the one who doesn't get it.
First off it was none of your business and second you totally missed my point and you still don't get it. It is not my opinions that I mind being questioned, it is the smart ass pot shot he always put in there. Those have nothing to do with the topic and are meant not as a valid argument but only to demean a person.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114728,00.html
The same damn group we whent in to help. Is now killing Christians and burning down orthodox Christian churches but we were told the christians were bad in that war and the muslims were good.
Such BS! they both are messed up and we should not have supported either of them, especially the muslims.
its bush's fault...
:angel:
silence
03-21-04, 02:46 AM
the muslim albanians kill the christian albanians, the christians return the favour. one group burns down a chuch, the other burns down a mosque. all are albanians united in their hatred and mistrust of each other, so there seems to be enough blame to go around. that's what happens when you throw different ethnic groups into one country and tell them to live together happily.
NO!! you are so wrong...
muslim AND cristian albnians burn down serb (orthodox) churches.....
there was NEVER any religious hostility inside albanian nation.
that's the trick. this has nothing to do with Udawg's narrowminded views on religion. things aren't what he thinks they are :mad:
Serbs aren't christians (orthodox or otherwise)? why would an orthodox christian Serb burn down their own church?? aren't they burning mosques? aren't muslims burning churches? religion can be a component of nationality, which can be exploited to illustrate differences between two peoples.
silence
03-21-04, 03:28 AM
Serbs aren't christians (orthodox or otherwise)? why would an orthodox christian Serb burn down their own church?? aren't they burning mosques? aren't muslims burning churches? religion can be a component of nationality, which can be exploited to illustrate differences between two peoples.
okies...here it goes.
serbs == orthodox christians
albanians == muslim AND catholic christians
albanians burn serb churches.... not cause of muslim<>christian hate, but cause of nationalistic albanian<>serb hate... i guess it's kinda hard to see difference from where you stand, but there is big difference.
churches/mosques are burnt not as much as religious symbol, more as ethnic, which is pretty big difference.
BTW:: serbs burnt many, many catholic churches in last decade.... here in Croatia (not that our extremists stayed away from such actions).. during war in Croatia, churches were one of first targets to be hit.. and both we and serbs are cristians (they are orthodox, we are catholic)..
in Bosnia each side acted same, with religious symobls of others being destroyed....all 3 sides...
so this isn't something Udawg/Foxnews wants to sell, another attack of muslim/islam on christians, roots are different and i simply can't stay away from this thread cause of it. understanding WHY things happen is key to solve problems and here you don't deal so much with pure religious hatred, but with nationalistic/ethinic where religion is used as rally point.
biggest difference are Albanians because they are BOTH muslim and christian, and there was never any sign of religious confrontation inside albanian nation == albanian muslims PROTECT albanian christians and vice cersa, they act TOGETHER against their foes.
i hope i made myself little bit more clear (when u live around here, you tend to see these thing more clearly)
BTW:::: one of my ex's was half-albanian and her family is catholic ;)
ok, here it goes.
kosovo = 70% muslim.
serbs = orthodox christian.
a component of one's ethnicity = religion.
different religions = rallying point for trouble makers, ie, the other religion is different than ours, therefore they are the enemy.
kosovo muslims burn churches, serbs burn mosques in retaliation. why? because they are symbols! easy targets. meeting places of the other people. if someone wants to pick a fight, burn down a place that matters to them, and see what happens. same thing when you burn a house. extremists know which buttons to press.
kosovo serbs would rather be united with serbia. mostly muslim population doesn't. why? serbs tried to kill them all.
never any religious problems? do you know you're history? the muslims, remnants of the Ottoman Empire, vs the christians. Albanian nationalism. old stories.
Albanians rose in rebellion time and again against
Ottoman occupation. In order to check the ravages
of Albanian resistance--which was partly motivated
by religious feelings, namely, defense of the
Christian faith--as well as to bring Albania
spiritually closer to Turkey, the Ottomans initiated
a systematic drive toward the end of the 16th
century to Islamize the population. This drive
continued through the following century, by the end
of which two-thirds of the people had converted to
Islam. A major reason Albanians became Muslims
was to escape Turkish violence and exploitation, an
instance of which was a crushing tax that Christians
would have to pay if they refused to convert.
Islamization aggravated the religious fragmentation
of Albanian society, which had first appeared in the
Middle Ages and which was later used by
Constantinople and Albania's neighbours in
attempts to divide and denationalize the Albanian
people. Hence leaders of the Albanian national
movement in the 19th century used the rallying cry
"The religion of Albanians is Albanianism" in
order to overcome religious divisions and foster
national unity.
are bbc articles more acceptable?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3554215.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3553837.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3551571.stm
silence
03-21-04, 09:13 AM
we are saying same thing basically.
____________________
Hence leaders of the Albanian national
movement in the 19th century used the rallying cry
"The religion of Albanians is Albanianism" in
order to overcome religious divisions and foster
national unity.
____________________
that's how they live right now...both cristian and muslim albanians against serbs.
i was just trying to point that these attacks werent islam/muslim attacking christians, but ethnic dispute on Balkans. there is bigg difference between what Fox reported -> muslim albanians attacking christin serbs and reality where ethnic albanians (both muslim and christian TOGETHER) attacked christian (orthodox) serbs.
___________________
kosovo muslims burn churches, serbs burn mosques in retaliation. why? because they are symbols! easy targets. meeting places of the other people. if someone wants to pick a fight, burn down a place that matters to them, and see what happens. same thing when you burn a house. extremists know which buttons to press.
___________________
completly agreed here...except that i was pointing (and i still do) that among those "muslims church burners" was pretty big share of ethnic albanians that are CHRISTIAN.
Kosovo is 70/30 muslim/christian....but it is also 90/10 albanian/serb, which leads to conclusion that 15-20% of albanians are indeed christian... and don't think they didnt participate in those burnings ;)
as i said, one of my ex's was half albanian and her whole family is christian.
it's so easy to skip this tiny detail and add more fire to hatred toward muslims in western world. churches there are burnt as ethnic symbols.
and don't get into that "poor orthodox serbs get their churches burnt" cause that's their bloody signature.... they bloody well burnt over 1000 catholic churches in Croatia during our war. not like this is some sort of islam/muslim attack on christian world... this are old ETHNIC desputes that have been here for centuries....
as for BBC::
"Thousands of Serbs were driven from their homes in clashes last week between ethnic Albanians and Serbs."
"At least 15 Orthodox churches and more than 100 homes in Serb enclaves were damaged or destroyed by Albanian rioters."
" About 1,100 Serbs and non-Albanians are being sheltered......."
"......of clashes between the majority ethnic Albanian population and the Serb minority."
"As rumours spread about the boys' deaths, mobs of angry Albanians set alight Serbian Orthodox churches and Serb-owned homes across Kosovo."
"Kosovo clashes 'ethnic cleansing'"
"Admiral Gregory Johnson said almost 1,000 Serbs had been driven from their homes after attacks by ethnic Albanians"
".....Nato forces entered Kosovo in 1999 to end years of ethnic unrest."
"......whether the violence had been organised by ethnic Albanian militants."
do you see my point here?...not muslims burning churches, but ethnic albanians.....now check Foxnews and see how they make sure ppl understand it's "evil islam" attacking "poor christians".....that's dangerous spin....specially in these days....
if u want we can discuss role of religion in latest Balkan wars...those of 1990's...i do have first hand experience in that...(check my location) ;)
yes... but its still bush's fault... :D
No religious hostilities? Then why were churches burned down? You said earlier that the make up was 70/30 well sounds like a vast majority are muslim to me.
Any way my whole point was that we should not have backed ANYONE in that war. We should not have been there. Yet we did and when we did we supported the terrorist. Both sides are messed up as far as I am concerned.
So again with the name calling silence. I think you can do better than that. Gee with your quick temper I can hardly see why there is so much war in your region. /rolls his eyes
silence
03-21-04, 04:10 PM
No religious hostilities? Then why were churches burned down? You said earlier that the make up was 70/30 well sounds like a vast majority are muslim to me.
Any way my whole point was that we should not have backed ANYONE in that war. We should not have been there. Yet we did and when we did we supported the terrorist. Both sides are messed up as far as I am concerned.
So again with the name calling silence. I think you can do better than that. Gee with your quick temper I can hardly see why there is so much war in your region. /rolls his eyes
1) it's ethnic hostility where all sides tend to play "burn the village" game. if it was religious, then you would prolly have muslim albanians attacking christian albanians, wouldnt you?....
2) not backing anyone was option of Bush sr. & rest of the world when sh|t started to happen, they just voted arms embargo and let us play wargames. 250 000 dead and 4 million refugees later, they started to think that maybe they should do something(we can always discuss what was done and how)
3) terrorrist?..where did u get that? did u even read how it started and do u know anything about recent history there?....
don't get me wrong (again), i don't like when bloody nationalistic retards use ppl like this, but this isn't terrorrism... ethnic cleansing, war crimes...sure, but this isn't not even close to definition of terrorrism....
4) about name calling....heh...it's a game that is usually played by 2... and from what i see you ain't no stranger to that game, so cut that false innocence ;)
you bloody well know what will happen when u link to 5 Foxnews stories every day.... and u prolly like these fights more then ur willing to admit....
5) well.... looking at your attitude i can hardly see why americans arent loved as much as they thought around the world....
have fun :jammin:
No one is claiming to be innocent. I am trying to stop the childish circle and I have not called anyone names in a long time.
You will note I agree with you that no side is innocent. My point, and I'll say it again is that the US should not have gotten involved. It was none of our busines and we had no intrest in that region. If you guys want to kill each other off why should I care. Be you Christian or Muslim.
I call anyone a terrorist who burns down churches and mosques.
silence
03-21-04, 04:57 PM
No one is claiming to be innocent. I am trying to stop the childish circle and I have not called anyone names in a long time.
You will note I agree with you that no side is innocent. My point, and I'll say it again is that the US should not have gotten involved. It was none of our busines and we had no intrest in that region. If you guys want to kill each other off why should I care. Be you Christian or Muslim.
I call anyone a terrorist who burns down churches and mosques.
fair enough.
US had not much choice really after Iran and some other started to help bosnian Muslims. Iran was sending weapons, while Saudis and gulf states were sending cash mostly. It wasn't like Clinton wanted to dig in here acctually, but wouldn't u agree that muslim country in the middle of Europe, backed by Iran, only couple hundered miles/km away from NATO wing HQ is something that wasn't an option for US?
we were bleeding for years before something was done and it wasn't done for humanitarian reasons.
later.....
US went to Kosovo cause serbs sent over 1 million albanians into refugees. if there was no action, US allies (and NATO members) in this region would prolly start participating in local wargames.
Macedonia == big no,no for Greece (NATO)... which would prolly get Turkey (NATO) into all this cause of historic ties between local muslim population and Turks.
having 2 NATO countries on different sides in possible war was reason behind US acting as fast as they did.... not humanitarian aid or anything...
you do know that main oil pipeline from former Soviet republics that is supposed to help reduce US dependence on middle east oil should end up somewhere here..... if there was war, whole project would be stopped....
Clinton didn't play games around here cause he liked, but cause he acted in longterm interest of US.... just like Bush does.
intercede007
03-21-04, 05:12 PM
What you think is the topic when you editorialize.
Insofar as what is commented on is the topic and nothing else. Otherwise, it's an ad hominem attack and is therefore illogical.
Saint Lucifer
03-22-04, 07:01 AM
Well, I had a good response for that until Firefox crashed...
To summarize my old one, as soon as UDawg said "especially the Muslims" he brought his prejudice into the thread, thus making it a potential topic. You can't exactly make a derogatory comment and expect to get by without anyone confronting you about it, now can you?
Did Silence respond in a rather rude way? Perhaps, but Silence and UDawg don't get along anyhow, so it's par for the course.
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