View Full Version : Nice ATI really nice presentation...
volkskrant
03-31-04, 01:25 AM
That's what I thought with the last leaked presentation but it turned out to be real.
What I want to know is what genius decided to post it on the ATI website in the first place.
That guy has either a big warning in his pocket or is making appoints for job interviews...
At least you take out the speaker notes and create a PDF instead of just uploading the PPT without even checking it.
methinks its from someone who KNOWS they're about to get canned, and this is maybe their good-bye gesture... heh, if they didn't know then, they should know now... "dude, yer screwed!!" :p
Shamrock
03-31-04, 01:52 AM
Hmm,
No one noticed slide 38? Look at the 2nd sentence under the slide.
"Don't go into detail about the granularity of the VM system - just press home the fact that this solves important problems."
ATI is gonna have grainy graphics?
volkskrant
03-31-04, 02:57 AM
methinks its from someone who KNOWS they're about to get canned, and this is maybe their good-bye gesture... heh, if they didn't know then, they should know now... "dude, yer screwed!!" :p
It shows the power of the Internet. Once you throw something on your website, even for a few minutes, you loose total control over it's distribution.
:clap:
Drumphil
03-31-04, 04:46 AM
Hmm,
No one noticed slide 38? Look at the 2nd sentence under the slide.
"Don't go into detail about the granularity of the VM system - just press home the fact that this solves important problems."
ATI is gonna have grainy graphics?
LOL.. er, no..
anyways, can someone tell me what is so bad about anything ATI said here, esp considdering they were never meaning to make this stuff public?
Richthofen
03-31-04, 05:10 AM
LOL.. er, no..
anyways, can someone tell me what is so bad about anything ATI said here, esp considdering they were never meaning to make this stuff public?
well when R300 came PS2.0 was everything. The most important feature since the invention of graphics cards not to mention the tons of PS2.0 games arriving... Where are they? Where is HL2? They told developers to use PS2.0 as much as they can even if the implemented shader is a damn simple one which could be done with PS1.4 or even less just to make sure that every shader is run in max precision while knowing they don't offer FP32.
Now PS3.0 arrives and what is ATI telling developers? Well SM3.0 doesn't matter. Flow Control doesn't matter. PS1.4/2.0 is enough at least UNTIL WE OFFER PS3.0 and Flow Control Capabilities which won't be before R500.
Further on some of Huddy's comments really show what they (ATI) think about developers. Really a very nice presentation. A lot of developers will read it. Very nice....
I hope they lose on the performance side this round. Then they will come down to reality pretty fast. That would mean offering less features and less performance and that is the best thing to show them that the market does not need another feature blocking company.
I hope the competition owns them completly so that they stop sitting on their asses.
T-Spoon
03-31-04, 06:34 AM
I don't see why all the fuzz is about this presentation? I mean, it's an internal presentation. And it's not like anything new is said in there. We all put notes like that in presentations, but does that make us bad? And it doesn't have to mean that the notes are actually used during the presentation. And there's nothing wrong about having these thoughts and downplaying the competition, cause that's what they are... 'competition'. As long as they don't revert to using Cheatalysts like nVidia did with the Cheatonators.
And God knows what nVidia has been putting in the notes at their Cg presentations last year... Wouldn't be suprised if it was something like "Stress the need for Cg and tell people that ATi's architecture is inferior to ours when it comes to cinematic effects. Tell them that Cg is gods gift to gamers."
You just gotta love competition. It's kinda like election time. They're trying to get many people to vote for them, but you will only know if they can keep their promises after the election. :)
volkskrant
03-31-04, 07:27 AM
well when R300 came PS2.0 was everything. The most important feature since the invention of graphics cards not to mention the tons of PS2.0 games arriving... Where are they? Where is HL2? They told developers to use PS2.0 as much as they can even if the implemented shader is a damn simple one which could be done with PS1.4 or even less just to make sure that every shader is run in max precision while knowing they don't offer FP32.
Now PS3.0 arrives and what is ATI telling developers? Well SM3.0 doesn't matter. Flow Control doesn't matter. PS1.4/2.0 is enough at least UNTIL WE OFFER PS3.0 and Flow Control Capabilities which won't be before R500.
Further on some of Huddy's comments really show what they (ATI) think about developers. Really a very nice presentation. A lot of developers will read it. Very nice....
I hope they lose on the performance side this round. Then they will come down to reality pretty fast. That would mean offering less features and less performance and that is the best thing to show them that the market does not need another feature blocking company.
I hope the competition owns them completly so that they stop sitting on their asses.
I see the accidental posting of the PPt on the website as a bigger problem than the image of Ati that you describe. Pretty sure speaker notes on Nvidia presentations will contain similar messages (taken from their position of course)
well when R300 came PS2.0 was everything. The most important feature since the invention of graphics cards not to mention the tons of PS2.0 games arriving... Where are they? Where is HL2? They told developers to use PS2.0 as much as they can even if the implemented shader is a damn simple one which could be done with PS1.4 or even less just to make sure that every shader is run in max precision while knowing they don't offer FP32.
This exact same argument can be made about games with PS3.0. We barely have PS2.0 games a full year and a half after the release of DX9. Why should everyone suddenly start worrying about PS3.0 when we all know full well that we won't see games using it until 2005 or later. The exact same argument WAS made by Nvidia when ATI cards could do ps 1.4 and theirs could only do ps1.1. In addition why should developers start using PS3.0 when the only cards that may be able to use it will only be able to run it at very slow speeds. ATI has obviously made a choice to maximize the speed of PS2.0 right now when its being used and save ps3.0 for their next generation of cards when the tech. has improved enough to actually use it well.
I hope they lose on the performance side this round. Then they will come down to reality pretty fast. That would mean offering less features and less performance and that is the best thing to show them that the market does not need another feature blocking company.
I hope the competition owns them completly so that they stop sitting on their asses.
I really don't care who wins, I just want the fastest cards possible with the best quality possible. Right now that's ATI. If Nvidia has the best card this time around I will buy it. If its ATI then I will buy theirs. You have to admit that the fierce competition is great for the consumer. To me Ps3.0 is a checkbox feature right now. There will be no PS 3.0 games for at least a year or more and I will probably be using a different card then anyway so I really don't care about it now.
I would rather have a card that can run ps2.0 extremely well and ps3.0 not at all than a card that can run ps2.0 well and can do ps3.0 but not fast enough to be usefull.
ATI is thinking the same thing and it was this kind of thinking that led to the R300 and is why they are in the lead now.
If Nvidia's card can do PS2.0 just as fast as ATI with their next generation card AND it can do PS3.0, then they may have won this round and I will probably buy their next card. Of course since IQ is important to me I will be looking at FSAA, AF etc and buy the card that offers the best combination of all.
Actually since I have a 9800XT I may wait out this generation especially with PCIE coming. I am not going to buy the first batch of new mobo's out that offer it and waiting a bit until everyone has the new tech sorted out is probably a good idea at this point.
Given the reasoning that NV's first gereration of any new tech is not very efficient (more of a tech preview for developers), and they're cards always highly optimise the last one. It makes sense to presume SM2 will be very strong this coming generation on NV, and SM3 will be "so so", not exactly amazing. Ati must be assuming that when they join next generation with SM3 it will be like their introduction of SM2. Top notch, and hit the ground running (or sprinting). By then NV will be on to their next generation, which does have the SM3 fully optimised for mainstream use.
Really I see nothing wrong or even bad or dishonest in the presentation at all. Very professional, and fair.
well when R300 came PS2.0 was everything. The most important feature since the invention of graphics cards not to mention the tons of PS2.0 games arriving... Where are they? Where is HL2? They told developers to use PS2.0 as much as they can even if the implemented shader is a damn simple one which could be done with PS1.4 or even less just to make sure that every shader is run in max precision while knowing they don't offer FP32.
Now PS3.0 arrives and what is ATI telling developers? Well SM3.0 doesn't matter. Flow Control doesn't matter. PS1.4/2.0 is enough at least UNTIL WE OFFER PS3.0 and Flow Control Capabilities which won't be before R500.
Further on some of Huddy's comments really show what they (ATI) think about developers. Really a very nice presentation. A lot of developers will read it. Very nice....
I hope they lose on the performance side this round. Then they will come down to reality pretty fast. That would mean offering less features and less performance and that is the best thing to show them that the market does not need another feature blocking company.
I hope the competition owns them completly so that they stop sitting on their asses.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
nForceMan
03-31-04, 09:29 AM
This exact same argument can be made about games with PS3.0. We barely have PS2.0 games a full year and a half after the release of DX9. Why should everyone suddenly start worrying about PS3.0 when we all know full well that we won't see games using it until 2005 or later
Wrong. Have you seen FarCry patch (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/6/ubb.x?
a=tpc&s=400102&f=452106891&m=804108303) yet? (-Added support for PS3.0 shader profile)
Besides it's definitely not the same situation that was before (SM1.x->2.x). With high level shader languages developers can add SM3 support just by clicking on a checkbox.
In addition why should developers start using PS3.0 when the only cards that may be able to use it will only be able to run it at very slow speeds. Do you have any reliable info about SM3 performance? If not why do assume it's very slow?
ATI has obviously made a choice to maximize the speed of PS2.0 Obviously? Maximize? How do you know that? How about NV40's 'higher than the maximum' speed? :lol:
This exact same argument can be made about games with PS3.0. We barely have PS2.0 games a full year and a half after the release of DX9. Why should everyone suddenly start worrying about PS3.0 when we all know full well that we won't see games using it until 2005 or later.
As every time, some people need longer to accept new technologies as others. Hopefully the last people will be convinced about SM 3.0 when valve announces support for it later this year...
jbirney
03-31-04, 10:25 AM
Nobody has said that, all that has been said is that ATI are not the perfect halo wearing company that folks paint them to be. Of course people seem to object to the truth at times.
and
Iif you want to believe that ATI is still totally good and wholesome, you go right ahead.
I dont think anyone here ever believed ATI was perfect. However this was nothing more than Harmless PR drivel which we see all the time. You play up your strengths and down the competions. However the frist few posers were trying to make it a lot worse.
Wrong. Have you seen FarCry patch yet? (-Added support for PS3.0 shader profile)
Besides it's definitely not the same situation that was before (SM1.x->2.x). With high level shader languages developers can add SM3 support just by clicking on a checkbox.
There is a big difference in using the PS3.0 complier profile and actually writing your game to make use of PS3.0 shaders. Granted its not a bad thing but do you have any proof that PS3.0 will make any difference in either IQ or speed on FarCry? So yea its being using in some fashion but lets wait to see just what it means.....
NickSpolec
03-31-04, 10:45 AM
Now PS3.0 arrives and what is ATI telling developers? Well SM3.0 doesn't matter. Flow Control doesn't matter. PS1.4/2.0 is enough at least UNTIL WE OFFER PS3.0 and Flow Control Capabilities which won't be before R500.
Developers barely even scratched the surface of PS 1.x, and they haven't even begun with PS 2.0. So there is no reason whatsoever for developers to be thinking of looking to progress to SM 3.0... There is absolutely no need to because they haven't exploited PS 2.0 in the least (and again, neither have they exploited PS 1.x)
So I would say ATI is quite right in this regard, no matter what their motives are for pushing this view.
Developers SHOULD still stick with, and focus on, PS/VS 2.0.. Maybe after developers have exhausted the abilites of PS/VS 2.0, then they should progress to PS/VS 3.0. But only then (and that would be a long time off).
volkskrant
03-31-04, 11:29 AM
Wrong. Have you seen FarCry patch (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/6/ubb.x?
a=tpc&s=400102&f=452106891&m=804108303) yet? (-Added support for PS3.0 shader profile)
Besides it's definitely not the same situation that was before (SM1.x->2.x). With high level shader languages developers can add SM3 support just by clicking on a checkbox.[/b]
Adding SM3 support by just checking a checkbox is something quite different than writing shaders that fully utilize the functions and capabilities SM3 offers.
Most current games do not show any mayor IQ difference between SM 1.4 and SM 2.0. Let alone that you see a mayor difference between SM2.0 en SM3.0 by just clicking a checkbox.
Wrong. Have you seen FarCry patch (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/6/ubb.x?
a=tpc&s=400102&f=452106891&m=804108303) yet? (-Added support for PS3.0 shader profile)
Besides it's definitely not the same situation that was before (SM1.x->2.x). With high level shader languages developers can add SM3 support just by clicking on a checkbox.
Huh? Absolutely not. :lol2:
In fact I wouldn't be suprised if the "added SM3 support" is just a gimmick statement put in by, or for Nvidia as a marketing tool to sell their next batch of cards which will have SM3 support.
Hmmm... I seem to remember a Nvidia ad stuck in the middle of the jewel case of my copy of Farcry.
TWIMTBP
"The way its meant to be pimped"
Somone over at B3D is investigating if any code was rewritten for PS3.0 or if in fact nothing has changed at all. Can't wait to see his findings.
Drumphil
03-31-04, 12:23 PM
yeah, well, if the nv40 does ps3.0 like the FX series cards do ps2.0 it wont be much use. Its all speculation at this point anyway.
volkskrant
03-31-04, 02:13 PM
Huh? Absolutely not. :lol2:
In fact I wouldn't be suprised if the "added SM3 support" is just a gimmick statement put in by, or for Nvidia as a marketing tool to sell their next batch of cards which will have SM3 support.
Hmmm... I seem to remember a Nvidia ad stuck in the middle of the jewel case of my copy of Farcry.
TWIMTBP
"The way its meant to be pimped"
Somone over at B3D is investigating if any code was rewritten for PS3.0 or if in fact nothing has changed at all. Can't wait to see his findings.
Should be interesting to see the outcome of that investigation
volkskrant
03-31-04, 02:19 PM
yeah, well, if the nv40 does ps3.0 like the FX series cards do ps2.0 it wont be much use. Its all speculation at this point anyway.
We'll have too wait and see. Let's just hope it will not bee a "tickbox/checkbox" feature.
I am happy with Nvidia however with their 5900XT card. Bought one for €199 and it runs great!
:)
vampireuk
03-31-04, 03:08 PM
I dont think anyone here ever believed ATI was perfect.
Oh you would be suprised, there are quite a lot around here who would think that and dismiss any criticism as fanboyish whining of their precious company. And just to refresh peoples memory...
It came directly from ATIs Site
volkskrant
03-31-04, 03:11 PM
Oh you would be suprised, there are quite a lot around here who would think that and dismiss any criticism as fanboyish whining of their precious company. And just to refresh peoples memory...
At least it shows that the Ati webmaster has to look for another job :retard:
jbirney
03-31-04, 03:12 PM
yeah, well, if the nv40 does ps3.0 like the FX series cards do ps2.0 it wont be much use. Its all speculation at this point anyway.
In the patch a few lines about the added PS3.0 it said added support for NV40 soooooo not sure what that means..
PS 3.0 will come much faster than PS 2.0 because nVidia will encourage their "TWIMTBP" partners to use it. Instead of holding back the industry like they did with the NV3x, they will be doing the opposite this time. Personally, I'm all for progress.
volkskrant
03-31-04, 03:37 PM
PS 3.0 will come much faster than PS 2.0 because nVidia will encourage their "TWIMTBP" partners to use it. Instead of holding back the industry like they did with the NV3x, they will be doing the opposite this time. Personally, I'm all for progress.
What are the advantges of PS 3.0 over PS 2.0? There are few quality PS 2.0 games available. Let alone at reasonable speed.
My 5900XT just stalls with Tombraider.
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