The Current Progress of Pixel Shader 2.0

[ChrisRay]

Now guys lets avoid Flames, About ATI and Nvidia, Just wanted to discuss the current phase and usage of Pixel Shader 2.0.


So Far Pixel Shaders have been rendering 3 things in games, too my experience, Water with Bump Mapping, Lighting, And Skies,

Lighting IMO being the most noticable effect of Shaders And Shader 2.0. So far Even Far Cry seems to mostly use its shaders for glossy Lighting effects ect, (You'll notice that the Shine on Pipes, FlashLights ect,)

Now heres the issue, So far I have noticed that Pixel Shader 2.0 is offering Lighting With less "hard" transistions between Shaders, But still offering pretty Similar "effect" To that of Shader 1.1/1.3/1.4.

I can only speculate that if Shader DirectX 8.1 Class Shaders are doing the Job, With only slight loss in precision (IE the big difference I've noticed between shaders is precision, Not effects)

Then we havent tapped Shader 2.0 as We should have, I can only speculate as to why, But if you noticed, Most DirectX 8.1 Shader engines are bringing similar Quality to that of 2.0 Shaders, Just Minus some precision (This can be noted in Far Cry when you compare Shader 2.0 to 1.1 and you can see the big difference between them is precision, and not really missing "effects"


(Note when I saying missing precision, We're talking about Shiny Gloss like effects, And how light reflects ect)


Your thoughts on this? Are we going to see more use for Shader 2.0? You'd think with the higher instruction count more could be done. But so far most shader 2.0 games seem to be doing Shader 1.1 can do, Just in a higher precision, I know Shader 2.0 offers instruction improvement, Single Pass improvements (Notably above 1.3/1.1) So why are we stuck in this trend of just higher precision effects,

[Sazar]

I am hoping for both better/wider use of ps2.0 and also more judicious use of it...

by that I mean better programming and better efficiency...

ut2k4 looks damn nice as is w/o the use more than mainly dx7 and some dx8 effects.. fc looks nicer on the inner levels with absolutely brilliant lighting effects off the walls and the the bump-mapping... I have no idea if there are specular effects( or how much) being employed but am sure some other members who know more about it will let us know...

[theultimo]

IMO, PS 20 has been worthless to this point. Considering the only "true" game using it is Far Cry, it seems to only be used for moore precise lighting, like ChrisRay said. I don't think It will get any better until more developers/consumers have dx9 class cards.

Note: on valve's survey, most cards are dx7/dx8 Geforce 4's..

[freak77power]

IMO, PS 20 has been worthless to this point. Considering the only "true" game using it is Far Cry, it seems to only be used for moore precise lighting, like ChrisRay said. I don't think It will get any better until more developers/consumers have dx9 class cards.

Note: on valve's survey, most cards are dx7/dx8 Geforce 4's..

That's mean that ATI is right by saying, we do not need PS3.0 right now...

[Sazar]

IMO, PS 20 has been worthless to this point. Considering the only "true" game using it is Far Cry, it seems to only be used for moore precise lighting, like ChrisRay said. I don't think It will get any better until more developers/consumers have dx9 class cards.

Note: on valve's survey, most cards are dx7/dx8 Geforce 4's..

keep in mind many people who play c.s. are people who's rigs can't handle the newer online games such as ut2k4... so the valve survey can be highly biased in that sense...

[ChrisRay]

keep in mind many people who play c.s. are people who's rigs can't handle the newer online games such as ut2k4... so the valve survey can be highly biased in that sense...


Well the Average Everquest Player is Using a Geforce 4 MX or a Geforce FX 5200, The FX 5200 card is a hit, So we gotta deal with it as being a baseline for technology, Which isnt so bad, it Does 8.0, 8.1 shaders alright,

[Rollo]

Fools! ATIs DX9 is teh roxor, and ownz joo. nVidia suxorz, look at Shady Day.

Seriously, I agree with you, there just isn't much out there to evaluate the fine new DX9 effects yet, and IMO, the cards currently out won't be the ones I want to use when there are more games with more DX9 effects.

The water does look a little nicer, as does the reflection of light off things.

I'm guessing the nV40 and R420 will both offer much improved DX9 performance, and we'll have to go back to magnifying screenshots to find something to fight like dogs in a pit over.

[DivotMaker]

Considering the only "true" game using it is Far Cry, it seems to only be used for moore precise lighting, like ChrisRay said.

Sorry, incorrect. Tiger Woods 2004 makes extensive use of PS 2.0. Seeing as how it has been voted #4 PC GOTY by at least one online publication as well as PC Sports GOTY by numerous online and print publications, I don't think that Far Cry is the only "true" game using PS 2.0.

[jAkUp]

Well, there are quite a few games that use 2.0 shaders, most of them just arent "shoved in your face" as much as FarCry... the other ones use a more subtle effect.

[ChrisRay]

There are plenty of games Using Shader 2.0, But most of them, So far just seem to be extensions of DirectX 8.1 effects, I think this trend is going to continue for at least the next 2 years, Theres just no Denying DX 8.0 is the lowest common denominator, And at the moment. The real advantage of DX 9.0 to 8.0 (In current games) Seems to be precision. Ect,

[jAkUp]

Yea... I want to see a game built on DX9 shaders only :) yummyness ;)

[ChrisRay]

Yea... I want to see a game built on DX9 shaders only :) yummyness ;)



I honestly dont believe we'll see that till around the time of LongHorn. ;\

[Evildeus]

That's mean that ATI is right by saying, we do not need PS3.0 right now...
Actually, PS 3.0 should just be an optimisation path over PS 2.0, there doesn't seem to be any new extraordinary features. So i wouldn't say performance boost to be useless ;)

[euan]

I know where your coming from ChrisRay. Throwing away all the precision crap and so on for now, remember that when ATI introduced the ps1.4 it could do much more in less passes. With the new generations of shader models, the capabilities get more advanced, allowing more complex functions, in less time. What we have mostly seen so far, is the same mathmatical models being done in less time. AFAIK it's not until you get to certain types of complex shaders where the issue of precision comes into play. Certainly ps2 shaders will look better than ps1.x shaders if the calculations require the precision. But if they aren't then all you gain is performance advantages.

[GlowStick]

Well i do agree since PS2.0 is pritty new, all of its uses probly hasent even been used yet. Maybe make some 'unnatural' effects, insted of imitating water etc, make something new.

[CaiNaM]

That's mean that ATI is right by saying, we do not need PS3.0 right now...

lol.. but you believed ati when they said we needed DX9 almost 2 years ago????

ok, 9700 has other merits, but still...

DX9 was a "paper" feature for almost 2 years... i believe PS3 will be the same for some time to come.. tho those water effects shown in the dev article were really cool :)

[photophreak314]

And maybe some effects other than "Shiny, shiny, and more shiny" would be nice. Because in all reality, rusted torpedoes (Far Cry) and walls don't actually glisten after sitting around for 50 years. Lets see some HL2, Stalker photorealistic rendering instead of all of this shiny stuff. Although water is nice and all, we could use something NEW!!

[Cota]

There are plenty of games Using Shader 2.0, But most of them, So far just seem to be extensions of DirectX 8.1 effects, I think this trend is going to continue for at least the next 2 years, Theres just no Denying DX 8.0 is the lowest common denominator, And at the moment. The real advantage of DX 9.0 to 8.0 (In current games) Seems to be precision. Ect,

you mean "DX 8.0 is the highest common denominator"

[ChrisRay]

you mean "DX 8.0 is the highest common denominator"


Nah I'd say its the lowest common denominator now, with the Huge influx of FX 5200 and Radeon 9000 cards, MX cards arent produce like they used too and DX 8.0 is rapidly catching on while 9.0 is barely being used at all.

[Cota]

Nah I'd say its the lowest common denominator now, with the Huge influx of FX 5200 and Radeon 9000 cards, MX cards arent produce like they used too and DX 8.0 is rapidly catching on while 9.0 is barely being used at all.

radeon 9000 is not DX9 and the 5200 really can't run DX9 games. Unless you can play games at less than 15fps, they both run DX8 games quite nicelly so that should make them the highest common denominator.

[ChrisRay]

radeon 9000 is not DX9 and the 5200 really can't run DX9 games. Unless you can play games at less than 15fps, they both run DX8 games quite nicelly so that should make them the highest common denominator.



And what would you refer to as the lowest then? I assume them being the baseline for which all games are going to programmed on for a while.

[Cota]

And what would you refer to as the lowest then? I assume them being the baseline for which all games are going to programmed on for a while.

you really want to talk semantics?? I know what you mean so there is no point to argue about this.

lets leave it that way.

Anyway, I think it will take a while for developers to exploit PS effects, I just hope they don't trade visuals for gameplay.

[ChrisRay]

you really want to talk semantics?? I know what you mean so there is no point to argue about this.

lets leave it that way.

Anyway, I think it will take a while for developers to exploit PS effects, I just hope they don't trade visuals for gameplay.


Not really arguing. I'm just curious about your perspective, I see DX 8.0 Shader effects starting to be fully exploited soon, Just not9 ;_

[theultimo]

Not really arguing. I'm just curious about your perspective, I see DX 8.0 Shader effects starting to be fully exploited soon, Just not9 ;_

Considering the launch of T+L took longer then expected with DX 7, DX 8 engines in development are just coming to surface.

[freak77power]

Considering the launch of T+L took longer then expected with DX 7, DX 8 engines in development are just coming to surface.

I agree...
I predict that we will switch to pure DX9.0 games by the time Microsoft releases Longhorn. By that time r420 and NV40 are going to be replace with new generation of cards, which supposed to support PS 4.x ?!?!