R420 is looking quite good now...

[vampireuk]

Folks shouldn't dismiss the R420 derivatives B4 they are revealed..
Those that do may be in for a rude awakening.

Nobody is dismissing them, they are simply saying ATI will have a difficult time this time around.

[PenguinJim]

Incredibly stupid comment.
My apologies, did you want the list?

nVidia frequently releases good graphics cards; ATi has rarely been the gamers' choice. nVidia have delivered again and again, and I hope they go on doing so. ATi have delivered once (plus revisions), but I hope they go on delivering. At the end of the day, they're fighting each other to deliver ME with the best graphics card :) I don't mind who wins. It doesn't mean I'm going to pretend their past has been any different. I certainly hope ATi doesn't drop out (at least, not before they've fixed all the driver bugs in my Radeon 9800 Pro ;)).

Good luck to ATi, and good luck to nVidia. I think it's more likely nVidia will 'win' this time around, but I'm basing that almost entirely on speculation :). Still, I'm entitled to my opinion and my "stupid" comments :D.

BTW, that comment about the driver bugs in my 9800 Pro was just a joke. If it made you angry, there's at least a 10% chance you're a fanboy ;).

[PenguinJim]

Admittedly I never owned their previous hardware before 9700 pro but from what I've heard/read, their hardware has always been excellent - the drivers were what held them back in the past.

No, that's not true. Prior to the 8500, they were never a contender in 3D graphics - the nearest they came was with their Rage Fury MAXX. The 8500 was the nearest thing the GeForce4Ti had to real competition, and had some nifty shader stuff going on.

ATi cards have always been praised for their 2D, though ;). Of course, this is all history, as they seem to be doing pretty well at the whole 3D thing (finally ;)). I just hope the 9700 wasn't a one-off.

[Nutty]

I think its very fair to say ATI wont have it as easy this time as when the 9700 came out. At that time the only competition was the GF4, and then they raised the bar when the NV3X failure came out.

Much different this time around.

[MUYA]

It's a shame that higher clock memory isn't available for thse GPUs.

[Ruined]

Admittedly I never owned their previous hardware before 9700 pro but from what I've heard/read, their hardware has always been excellent - the drivers were what held them back in the past.

Prior to the 9700, ATI always made crap, be it 2D or 3D. They were the reject brand when you couldn't afford a better card. Dominated by S3, Tseng, and Matrox in 2D, dominated by 3dfx and Nvidia in 3D. :)

Because of this, I too am doubtful about whether R3xx was a one time thing, or whether they can successfully evolve to a new architecture - because their past history is very sketchy.

[PenguinJim]

Prior to the 9700, ATI always made crap, be it 2D or 3D. They were the reject brand when you couldn't afford a better card. :)
There were generally worse alternatives that ATi :). But Matrox owned them on 2D and 3dfx and nVidia owned them on 3D. Ah, good old Reasonable OEM Solution ATi ;).

[Ruined]

There were generally worse alternatives that ATi :). But Matrox owned them on 2D and 3dfx and nVidia owned them on 3D. Ah, good old Reasonable OEM Solution ATi ;).

Heh check my edit. But yeh there was worse crap like Trident, but at least that was reject stuff that was dirt cheap ;)

[muzz]

You guys can say what you want as this is an open forum.....

BUT>>>>>>>
ATi NEVER had crap 2d
Get your facts straight.
NV cards have been known to have washed out colors for years in comparison, yet I still think they made good cards.

As far as past history.....
There is NOTHING but RECENT history to go on regarding video cards, and THAT was won by the 9700 derivatives in quality and speed.

As I stated already when they got new leadership they decided to make themselves a major player, and they have done pretty well in that dept.

If you guys are gonna bash ATi's past, and least give them the credit they are due, please don't exaggerate to the point of looking stupid.

TY for your attention on this matter.

[DivotMaker]

ATi usually release poor 3D cards:

1. My apologies, did you want the list?

2. Still, I'm entitled to my opinion and my "stupid" comments :D.

3. BTW, that comment about the driver bugs in my 9800 Pro was just a joke. If it made you angry, there's at least a 10% chance you're a fanboy ;).

1. Don't need a list. All I did was disagree with statement #1. Two years ago, I would have somewhat agreed with you, but ever since ATI bought Art-X, they have been on a ROLL. Don't make such profound statements that are very easily refuted.

2. You are entitled to your opinion and your "stupid" comments, but don't be surprised when people respond and challenge those comments.

3. Angry? Fanboy? I have to give you credit for being consistent with that "stupid comment" thing you have going on....

[PenguinJim]

Don't make such profound statements that are very easily refuted.
I guess this is a point of view thing. From ATi's first 3D card to now, they have usually been bad. Therefore, your comment is refuted far more easily than mine ;). If you change the point of view to the past two years, then they are usually good. I think I was clearly not talking about the past two years, though. And they've only released one chip (and subsequent revisions) in the past two years ;). Come to think of it, I was talking (in IRC earlier today) about how excellent the GF4Ti's were when they were released, and how much better again the Radeon 9700 (Pro) was when it was released. Another testament to how the 9700 is great is the fact that ATi's current high-end part is still a revision of the 9700, two years on (although I have to admit, I don't like ATi's XTs. Far too over-priced for my liking, but gotta love the 9800 Pro! ;)). Wow, I think I've gone a little off-topic here... :D

Your attack on my comment was exactly that: an attack. You failed to back yourself up in any way, which is surprising: my experience of your comments indicates both intelligence and feeling, usually. I was expecting a backlash from ATi fanboys who didn't take the full meaning of what I said, but I also expected them to back up their statements, whether deranged or true.

Uh... I guess I think your an ATI fanboy then :(. They find my comments stupid. So do nVidia fanboys when I point out the good points of ATi and the bad points of nVidia.

[DivotMaker]

Your attack on my comment was exactly that: an attack. You failed to back yourself up in any way, which is surprising: my experience of your comments indicates both intelligence and feeling, usually.

I don't disagree that my initial response to you was an attack on your rather profound statement. I did manage to back my comments up above very nicely. What you failed to do was qualify your comment that I highlighted. Maybe you feel you did, but I failed to see it that way.

You can call me anything you like because I do not have time to worry about other people's tendency to "label" others or even myself. I am simply interested in good clean discussions that do not state opinions as "facts". Being an owner of the most recent high end products from each company gives me a very clear perspective on the strengths and weaknesses of each product/company. So when people attempt to label me as you have, I simply consider the source and move on in most cases. Since you have now referred to me at least twice in the same thread with the same label, I chose not to let the opportunity to address your comments pass by...

[gordon151]

I've noticed quite a few people trying to harp nvidias hundred years of 3d graphics leadership or something. Really, the time from the release of the Geforce256 to the release of the 9700 Pro has only been a little over two and a half years (Q4'99 to Q2'02). Before Q4'99, 3DfX was the 3D graphics leader.

[jimmyjames123]

I think it is very much premature to imply that ATI was a one hit wonder with the 9700Pro. Remember, these guys have many ex-3dfx and ex-NVIDIA employees and of course other talented and well qualified engineers.

[Ruined]

ATi NEVER had crap 2d
Get your facts straight.

Re-read what I posted. We are talking about pre-9700 ATI history. When I say 2D, I mean cards made prior to the advent of 3d technology, cards without 3D acceleration. ATI had poor 2D cards. They could not compete with the likes of S3, Tseng, or Matrox chipsets. When 3D first came around, they could not compete with 3dfx or Nvidia chipsets. ATI half the time was the junk you got in pre-built store computers, stuff you needed to upgrade to get nice performance - similar to integrated Intel graphic chipsets these days. Yes, the 9700PRO was an exceptional feat for ATI, but they still haven't proved they can evolve yet. So far, they have one truly successful series of chipsets based on the R3xx series, and that's it. That's not a prediction that the R420 isn't going to kick ass, it's just a fact based on ATI's history.

[PenguinJim]

So when people attempt to label me as you have, I simply consider the source and move on in most cases. Since you have now referred to me at least twice in the same thread with the same label, I chose not to let the opportunity to address your comments pass by...
I like, totally said I guess I think you're an ATi fanboy (this was purely based on this thread, and hardly a definite statement). I think you must have read the same sentence twice: that was the only one referring to you. Unless that comment about ATi drivers made you angry :). Lol, how can people get worked up over some random guy's comments in some graphics card forum? Quack quack ;).
I think it is very much premature to imply that ATI was a one hit wonder with the 9700Pro.
I think that's actually a fact, right now :). So far, they've had one hit. I'm just hoping it doesn't continue to be the case ;).

[jimmyjames123]

There is very little chance that ATI will end up being a one hit wonder moving forward. Essentially, NVDA and ATI will be in a very close dogfight. It will be the consumers who win.

[gordon151]

Re-read what I posted. We are talking about pre-9700 ATI history. When I say 2D, I mean cards made prior to the advent of 3d technology, cards without 3D acceleration. ATI had poor 2D cards. They could not compete with the likes of S3, Tseng, or Matrox chipsets. When 3D first came around, they could not compete with 3dfx or Nvidia chipsets. ATI half the time was the junk you got in pre-built store computers, stuff you needed to upgrade to get nice performance - similar to integrated Intel graphic chipsets these days. Yes, the 9700PRO was an exceptional feat for ATI, but they still haven't proved they can evolve yet. So far, they have one truly successful series of chipsets based on the R3xx series, and that's it. That's not a prediction that the R420 isn't going to kick ass, it's just a fact based on ATI's history.

Asking him to re-read it probably made it look even more ridiculous. For instance, the fact that ATI's products were of such poor quality and couldn't compete with the likes of S3, etc. must have been what allowed them to lead the graphics market for two years after '98. Not to mention that those cards of such poor 2D quality must have been what gave them the reputation for having cards that had excellent 2D acceleration (and also won them all those OEM wins and made them the #1 provider in mobile graphics).

Edit - 100th post!

[DivotMaker]

1. I like, totally said I guess I think you're an ATi fanboy (this was purely based on this thread, and hardly a definite statement).

2. I think you must have read the same sentence twice: that was the only one referring to you.

3. Unless that comment about ATi drivers made you angry :). Lol, how can people get worked up over some random guy's comments in some graphics card forum? Quack quack ;).

1. An accusation is an accusation whether it is veiled or not. Your accusation is invalid based upoon NO facts.

2. No, I can comprehend what is said by reading it one time. Thanks for the concern though...

3. You could not make me angry if you tried. I believe I have responded to you with nothing BUT objectivity. However, making "Quack quack" comments is really unnecessary and overly childish.

[MUYA]

hey guys let get back to the threads original purpose..which was r420 looks good etc...if u want to question each others post, please do so in PM...thanks

[EMunEeE]

hey guys let get back to the threads original purpose..which was r420 looks good etc...if u want to question each others post, please do so in PM...thanks

Hey yo, the R420 is looking good. :clap:

I wonder how it will look physically, what kind of cooler and all?

[batterbrain101]

For instance, the fact that ATI's products were of such poor quality and couldn't compete with the likes of S3, etc. must have been what allowed them to lead the graphics market for two years after '98. Not to mention that those cards of such poor 2D quality must have been what gave them the reputation for having cards that had excellent 2D acceleration (and also won them all those OEM wins and made them the #1 provider in mobile graphics).

Edit - 100th post!

No, the fact that their product was dirt cheap and had just enough to do the basics graphics is what made them the #1 "OEM" (notice the three letters in quotations) provider. Cheap gets bought. I say this having dealt with many systems that had the OEM ATI graphics going back quite a few years. What was I doing to those systems, upgrading the video of cousre. Non of this is to say thatthe X800 is going to suck, I doubt that. Just got to wait for some benchies to come forth.
:)

[muzz]

Re-read what I posted. We are talking about pre-9700 ATI history. When I say 2D, I mean cards made prior to the advent of 3d technology, cards without 3D acceleration. ATI had poor 2D cards. They could not compete with the likes of S3, Tseng, or Matrox chipsets. When 3D first came around, they could not compete with 3dfx or Nvidia chipsets. ATI half the time was the junk you got in pre-built store computers, stuff you needed to upgrade to get nice performance - similar to integrated Intel graphic chipsets these days. Yes, the 9700PRO was an exceptional feat for ATI, but they still haven't proved they can evolve yet. So far, they have one truly successful series of chipsets based on the R3xx series, and that's it. That's not a prediction that the R420 isn't going to kick ass, it's just a fact based on ATI's history.

First of all NV had what 3 yrs as king?
And they only really had 3DFX to worry about ( ATi wasn't interested in competing- they were making a ton on OEM sales)

How many years has ATi been king(1-2?)? They only started REALLY trying when the new leadership took over.
Thats BS man, the Rage pro even had great 2d, AAMOF the ONLY team that MAY have had better is Matrox...
Some folks swear the Rage Pro is some of the best 2d they have EVER seen.

Take a look around man.

I mentioned that NV has had a HISTORY of bad washed out colors(take a look around, do ya think the filter mods were for fun or performance?), but did NOT bash them for it.
On the contrary I said that they were still decent cards.
Stop talking like NV had ten years of leadership, while ATi had zilch, thats Fanboy BS, the numbers are not THAT far apart, and ATi wasn't really even trying to keep up.
Please don't tell me something I am WELL aware of, as again you look like a damn fool.

Thank You for participating in "Lets help someone who looks like a damn fool".

[volkskrant]

Re-read what I posted. We are talking about pre-9700 ATI history. When I say 2D, I mean cards made prior to the advent of 3d technology, cards without 3D acceleration. ATI had poor 2D cards. They could not compete with the likes of S3, Tseng, or Matrox chipsets. When 3D first came around, they could not compete with 3dfx or Nvidia chipsets. ATI half the time was the junk you got in pre-built store computers, stuff you needed to upgrade to get nice performance - similar to integrated Intel graphic chipsets these days. Yes, the 9700PRO was an exceptional feat for ATI, but they still haven't proved they can evolve yet. So far, they have one truly successful series of chipsets based on the R3xx series, and that's it. That's not a prediction that the R420 isn't going to kick ass, it's just a fact based on ATI's history.


:lol2: (aaa)

[The Hip]

Prior to the 9700, ATI always made crap, be it 2D or 3D. They were the reject brand when you couldn't afford a better card. Dominated by S3, Tseng, and Matrox in 2D, dominated by 3dfx and Nvidia in 3D. :)

Because of this, I too am doubtful about whether R3xx was a one time thing, or whether they can successfully evolve to a new architecture - because their past history is very sketchy.


Blanket statements like the above can easily be refuted:

Missed a bit of history?

It seems Matrox, TSengLabs and S3 really "dominated" those poor junky 2D ATi Adapters.

http://www.byte.com/art/9502/sec12/art3.htm

And they received quite a bit of accolades:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jonnaert/cati1.htm

ATi Mach64
ATi Graphics Pro Turbo
ATi XPression

So, unless I'm mistaken - ATi did not ALWAYS make Crappy 2D.