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jimmyjames123
04-15-04, 09:07 PM
Here are some PS 3.0 pics in Far Cry:

http://www.pcper.com/news.php

Scroll down to see the pics.

Looks very impressive.

Does anyone have any insight as to why there is so much of a difference in IQ?

Snarfy
04-15-04, 09:24 PM
well, ps3.o uses a new technique that makes the textures pop out at you, although in reality, its just nice n flat

also, it looks damn better than the before picture because they ran the before pix on a fx 5950, which from what i hear sucks at running farcry (and on low detail, no less)

the water in the before shot does NOT look like what i get on a 9800 xt, at all


lol same exact response as i gave you on the b3d forum ^_^

hell_of_doom
04-15-04, 09:44 PM
Dude, in order to run PS3.0 you need DX9.0C and also it's not supported in the current drivers...
The screenshots you see is just PS2.0...
Jeez this forum is bunch of retarded people...

Snarfy
04-15-04, 09:56 PM
? i dont see what you mean by that, mr hell, i KNOW that ps 3.0 is only directx 9.0c

my point was that the before pictures look so bad in comparison BECAUSE the current nvidia hardware/drivers on the 5950 DO NOT support all of the directx9.0b (not directx9.0c) features!

also, dont be so hostile, it makes you seem like a bunghole =)

ChrisW
04-15-04, 10:24 PM
It's amazing how there are so many PS3.0 games comming out before the hardware exists. I don't see any reason why anyone would not accept the cause of there being so few PS2.0 games in the past was due to nVidia's influence with developers.

Snarfy
04-15-04, 10:27 PM
good point chris

one thing i would like to point out tho, is that there actually are a few ps2.0 games in the works (Hl2 for ex) but many of them turned into vaporware

thus, far cry is the first tangible game that really puts ps2.0 to the test

MadPt
04-15-04, 10:30 PM
LOL, this looks like a joke, PS3.0 will indeed be a Dx9.0c feature, and the only way you would have it working was if this was a OpenGL game, since DX is only updated by Microsoft, and not by nVidia's wish, hehe. :D

I say joke because... well, have you really seen those images!!??????
PS3.0 will only improve some small parts IQ, those image comparison seem like a 486 game compared to nowadays games, the left image is so bad i think even a Voodoo3 would do better, without the need for PS2.0 or earlier, LOL !!! ;)

I mean, PS3.0 will improve detail, not make a lousy game seem like Heaven just like that, that's why i call it a joke, i agree with nVidia using hype, but this seems too much.

Even my old Geforce3 or Radeon8500 does MUCH better than those left images, don't be fooled, and i don't believe that's even a 5950 image, and my R9800XT gives me that kind of image, without PS3.0 or DX9.0c, hehe, i love these ridiculous posts trying to make ppl look dumb.
Fun to look at those images, but seriously, nothing more than a ridiculous joke, hehe. ;)

Snarfy, i think hell was talking about jimmyjames123, and so am i. Actually, so were you. ;)
( or anyone with a brain that won't allow them to be fooled like a...whatever ;) )
Nv has a great card here, but there's no need for the kind os misleading info that is used in the jimmyjames123's forum link, with those "lovely" pictures comparing a dog with a Ferrari.

Snarfy
04-15-04, 10:32 PM
this is true =)

also, heres a link to a picture of what fc looks like for me (catacombs level)
http://www.azuretwilight.org/gallery/2004_04/FarCry0015

does that look bad to anyone here? lol, looks suberb

so yeah, kind of dumb to worry about ps 3.0 when ps 2.0 is barely used in todays games

although some people might not see it that way, and go nvidia, even if the ati r420 is hella faster

so, it's an effective gimmick for some :lame:

Blacklash
04-15-04, 10:45 PM
Umm yes,

PS 2.0 is barely used today and we are upon the next generation. Amusing how it WAS the be all end all when it was the 'first' on Ati cards. 2.0/3.0 whatever, the Nv40 is showing it can handle it. PS 3.0 will benefit 2.0 ,Are the Rage3d forums down or something? Crikey...

walkndude
04-15-04, 10:47 PM
Seem ?

Heres a tip for the socially challenged, if what you type would normally result in a punch in the mouth in a face to face conversation -sit on your hands and count to ten, it may just save you the embarassment of showing everybody what a tool you happen to be.

Funny thing is the "retards" I know show a hell of alot more intelligence than I've seen you show trolling different forums over the past few days with your fake broken english Hell...

-yes I know this belongs in a pm but does anyone believe it would do any good ?

Ninja Prime
04-15-04, 11:04 PM
The problem with this gimmick is that DirectX 9.0b can look exactly the same as 9.0c if you want it to. The only parts of 9.0c that can make anything "look better" than 9.0b won't be used for like 2 years. Little bit of extra shader speed is the limit of the benefits of 9.0c for a long time.

jimmyjames123
04-15-04, 11:16 PM
h_o_d and MadPt,

Those were PS 3.0 screen shots, using DirectX 9.0c beta. You think any website would be stupid enough to post them as PS 3.0 images if they were not? :D

I'd say that one of the clear reasons why there would be disparities in image quality between the two images is because one set of images was probably using NV3x settings.

There were several people who attended the demo in San Fran who also noted that the PS 3.0 effects looked much better than the other images that they saw.

The purpose of this thread is to analyze why there would be differences in image quality using PS 3.0 vs PS 2.0, and how much of a real difference there would be. If you don't have anything of substance to add to the conversation, then don't even bother to post.

Daneel Olivaw
04-15-04, 11:26 PM
I believe that all you're talking about are already features in PS2.0. PS3.0 adds pretty much only efficient conditionnal branching (I think). Instead of executing all cases in a shader and keeping the wanted one(PS2.0), PS3.0 executes only the right one. It simplifies coding more complex shaders. It does not really permit new things, it makes hard things easy. That's why it looks better, the shaders are different. That's according to a friend at Matrox (don't no one laugh at that! :) )

Nv40
04-15-04, 11:37 PM
well.. in the farcry video of SM3.0

as far as i know there no -dynamic softshadows- in realtime at the beach in the retail game in PS2.0. but the demostration shows NV40 doing that in real time very quickly ,with realtime displacement maps? FArcry looks completly diferent with RT softshadows/speculars.. vs static lightmaps that the original game use in the *outdoors* in the retail game . also there are reports of people that saw the event already told that the game with SM3.0 doesnt look the same as the retail.. that the diferences are remarkable.

from this site...
http://www.evilmofo.com/images/geforcelan/


farcry videos in sm 3.0
http://www.evilmofo.com/images/geforcelan/dont_hotlink/103_0373.avi

http://www.evilmofo.com/images/geforcelan/dont_hotlink/103_0372.avi

if someone can write everything that was said there.. because they audio quality is poor..

Daneel Olivaw
04-15-04, 11:42 PM
Download and play:

.kkrieger, chapter I - Beta Version
.a game in 96k
by .theprodukkt
(released at breakpoint 2004)

www.theprodukkt.com

It's a really fun game, it uses shaders 1.3 and creates effects pretty damn nice. With 'old' shaders and only 96k of data.

-NV40, is it real Dynamic Displacement Mapping? Or just bump-environment mapping?

Ruined
04-15-04, 11:54 PM
I think the key is that if PS3.0 allows devs to do complex shaders much more efficiently, devs are going to be able to make more complex shaders for PS3.0 hardware as it will be able to run it well while PS2.0 hardware might not.

Plus, of course, it will give all the devs in the TWIMTBP program a whole new shader model to use 'exclusive PS3.0 effects' with that won't be available to PS2.0 hardware, for a small fee of course :firedevil

Nv40
04-15-04, 11:58 PM
Download and play:

.kkrieger, chapter I - Beta Version
.a game in 96k
by .theprodukkt
(released at breakpoint 2004)

www.theprodukkt.com

It's a really fun game, it uses shaders 1.3 and creates effects pretty damn nice. With 'old' shaders and only 96k of data.

-NV40, is it real Dynamic Displacement Mapping? Or just bump-environment mapping?

dont really know.. but it make sense to me that is Displacement mapping since SM3.0 allows true displacement mapping . not hacks like those used in last generation hardware Dx9 from ATI and Nvdia.

Nv40
04-16-04, 12:05 AM
I think the key is that if PS3.0 allows devs to do complex shaders much more efficiently, devs are going to be able to make more complex shaders for PS3.0 hardware as it will be able to run it well while PS2.0 hardware might not.

Plus, of course, it will give all the devs in the TWIMTBP program a whole new shader model to use 'exclusive PS3.0 effects' with that won't be available to PS2.0 hardware, for a small fee of course :firedevil

indeed..

while there are things that are only possible in SM3.0 .there are also many things that SM3.0 can do , that also are possible in SM2.0 ,but that are so dificult or cost to much performance to do in SM2.0 ,that makes developers to forget about it . SM3.0 give more tools to developers. to do more ,faster and more efficiently. with better accuracy.

Snarfy
04-16-04, 01:01 AM
Here, i went and took another farcry screenshot, this one with some water

does it look like that picture? lol, not at all -- nvidia is comparing 3.0 to 1.4

clicky:
http://www.azuretwilight.org/gallery/2004_04/FarCry0017

btw, im running a 9800xt

jbirney
04-16-04, 09:10 AM
indeed..

while there are things that are only possible in SM3.0 .there are also many things that SM3.0 can do , that also are possible in SM2.0 ,but that are so dificult or cost to much performance to do in SM2.0 ,that makes developers to forget about it . SM3.0 give more tools to developers. to do more ,faster and more efficiently. with better accuracy.

This is exactly what happened with PS1.3 vrs PS1.4 and the good ol 8500 vrs GF4 debates....and we all know "HOW" much of a difference PS1.4 really made. Not saying that PS3.0 is gonna to suffer the same fate. But until other IHV support it dont count on wide spread adoption just yet.

Moose
04-16-04, 10:39 AM
Here are some PS 3.0 pics in Far Cry:

http://www.pcper.com/news.php

Scroll down to see the pics.

Looks very impressive.

Does anyone have any insight as to why there is so much of a difference in IQ?

There is such a huge difference because the "before" pic is not even using Ps2.0. Looks more like Ps1.1, if that even.

There is such a huge difference because Nvidia wants people to believe that there is a huge difference between Ps2.0 and Ps3.0.

If you had an actual comparison of Ps2.0 and Ps3.0 in front of you, I doubt that you could tell a difference.

The first pic is NOT ps 2.0.

Snarfy
04-16-04, 12:20 PM
pc perspective is looking into it, and made a semi-retraction of the pics, saying:

Update: We are looking into some questions posed to us about these screenshots in this thread of our forums; most notably: what setting are the "before" images using on FarCry.

Update2: While we still try to get ahold of this mod, below is the official statement from NVIDIA on these screenshots. The first screenshots are NOT using PS2.0, but PS1.x instead.

Moose
04-16-04, 03:24 PM
pc perspective is looking into it, and made a semi-retraction of the pics, saying:

Update: We are looking into some questions posed to us about these screenshots in this thread of our forums; most notably: what setting are the "before" images using on FarCry.

Update2: While we still try to get ahold of this mod, below is the official statement from NVIDIA on these screenshots. The first screenshots are NOT using PS2.0, but PS1.x instead.


Oh, look they aren't even comparing Ps2.0 to Ps3.0 what a surprise. :lame:

h_o_d and MadPt,

Those were PS 3.0 screen shots, using DirectX 9.0c beta. You think any website would be stupid enough to post them as PS 3.0 images if they were not? :D

I'd say that one of the clear reasons why there would be disparities in image quality between the two images is because one set of images was probably using NV3x settings.

There were several people who attended the demo in San Fran who also noted that the PS 3.0 effects looked much better than the other images that they saw.

The purpose of this thread is to analyze why there would be differences in image quality using PS 3.0 vs PS 2.0, and how much of a real difference there would be. If you don't have anything of substance to add to the conversation, then don't even bother to post.

Very few if anyone is questioning the validity of the Ps3.0 shots, but EVERYONE who has a DX9 card can plainly see that the comparison Ps2.0 shots are not using Ps2.0 at all.

Nvida themselves have said its Ps1.1 and I would suspect at the very lowest Farcry settings possible too.

jbirney
04-16-04, 04:00 PM
For what its worth..here is a comment from the developer of the new tribes game, Tribal War:

http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287758

ps3.0 doesnt suddenly give you any fancy new stuff... its just ps2.0 with a few new instructions and larger register counts. we could spend a heap of timing porting our 2.0 shaders to 3.0... but the game would look exactly the same afterwards.

also i'm highly dubious of that screenshot comparison between ps2.0 to ps3.0... the bottom shot contains nothing that cant be done in ps2.0, while the top shot contains very low quality looking stuff that looks < ps 2.0. anyone have a source which explains what the actual technical diff between those 2 shots is?

Like I said..for what its worth. I am still glad to see new stuff. Just question on how much it will impact games.

fivefeet8
04-16-04, 05:04 PM
For what its worth..here is a comment from the developer of the new tribes game, Tribal War:

http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287758



Like I said..for what its worth. I am still glad to see new stuff. Just question on how much it will impact games.

And here is what some other Developers are saying"

"We have been eagerly awaiting this newest generation of graphics technology because it allows us to do things we could never do before. The GeForce 6800 is a flexible platform that allows us to fully exploit DirectX 9.0 shader technology. We were able to achieve a very beautiful, polished game with Far Cry, but now we have the ability to push technologies like high-dynamic range, floating point blending and dynamic branching to render pixels at double the speed, and that's a particularly exciting prospect as we begin to focus on the advancement of the CryEngine for new big games!"

Cevat Yerli, CEO and President, Crytek

"The Grafan game engine's use of high dynamic range lighting, multiple real-time shadows, and multipass rendering techniques requires a high performance graphics card. We're currently working with the GeForce 6800 Ultra GPU and using pixel shader 3.0; all we can say is 'wow'."

Herb Marselas, Co-founder and Chief Executive Officer, Emogence, LL

“The GeForce 6800 is a great leap forward in PC graphics, bringing next-generation DirectX 9.0 rendering performance to new heights while continuing forward with the high-definition floating-point rendering, driver performance and stability NVIDIA is famous for. As the first GPU supporting the new pixel shader 3.0 programming model, the GeForce 6800 enables games to use entirely new rendering approaches and obtain higher performance per-pixel lighting, shadowing, and special effects than was ever possible before.”

Tim Sweeney, Founder and President, Epic Games

“With 16 pixel pipelines and comprehensive support of Shader Model 3.0, the GeForce 6800 offers a wide spectrum of new features at the highest level of performance. We're looking forward to combining two new capabilities—vertex texture sampling and stream frequency dividing—to pack our mesh data, thus minimizing our video memory usage. Furthermore, OpenEXR support in texture filtering and pixel blending will finally allow us to efficiently implement high dynamic range rendering, while also allowing our artists to fully express themselves in this extended domain.”

Janos Boudet, Senior Engine Programmer, Eugensystems


"What most excites me about the GeForce 6 Series is the Vertex Stream Frequency Divider and Pixel Shader 3.0 support. The combination will give us the ability to create richer game environments and complex special effects. At last we will be able to do realistic gas and fluid simulations in real-time!"

Tim Ramsay, Senior Graphics Programmer, LucasArts

What was that about developers? Most seem to agree that SM3 is the way to go.