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View Full Version : NVIDIA better off by disabling 8xAA on NV40?


jimmyjames123
04-22-04, 11:07 AM
Do you think that NVIDIA will be better off by disabling 8xAA on the NV40?

This mode may be usable on some old games, but on any newer games, it only makes the NV40 look very bad compared to the competition. In fact, in this mode, the NV40 does not even look so hot compared to the FX cards!

Also, apparently there is a 4xS AA mode that can be used that has better image quality than 4xAA, but without the huge performance hit of 8xAA SS+MS.

zoomy942
04-22-04, 11:09 AM
i say yes cause i dont use aa or af anyway.

stncttr908
04-22-04, 11:15 AM
Why should they? It gives people another option to play around with in older games. I don't see what harm it does.

i say yes cause i dont use aa or af anyway.Then why get a 59xx series card? :screwy:

CaiNaM
04-22-04, 11:24 AM
:confused:

i don't see what all the fuss is about in the first place. at the higher resolutions you can run w/ the nv40, high aa is not necessary anyway.

at lower resolutions where there's a reason to use it, it runs it so fast that the performance hit really doesn't impact playability.

am i missing something here?

particleman
04-22-04, 11:29 AM
Leave it there, it has the advantage of antialiasing alpha textures, if you don't like it, no one is forcing you to use it.

zoomy942
04-22-04, 11:39 AM
Why should they? It gives people another option to play around with in older games. I don't see what harm it does.

Then why get a 59xx series card? :screwy:

i loke smooth gameplay and i use all setting on max in games. so i loooove my 5900. i guess i could try some aa and af, i havent tried it since my geforce 4

GlowStick
04-22-04, 11:41 AM
Why woudlnt you enable a feature?

oqvist
04-22-04, 11:43 AM
You don´t know what you are missing zoomy. Anisotrophic filtering is the last thing I cut down on. Anything less than at least 4x anisotrophic aren´t really playable in any game. Can´t live with jaggies either.

About the poll I don´t understand the question? What purpose would it solve to disable it? Making people brag that they use max settings or why don´t have it as an option? I really don´t get that question.

fivefeet8
04-22-04, 11:44 AM
I myself hope that ATi implements some sort of Super Sampling AA in it's R420.. But it's highly unlikely.

zoomy942
04-22-04, 12:25 PM
You don´t know what you are missing zoomy. Anisotrophic filtering is the last thing I cut down on. Anything less than at least 4x anisotrophic aren´t really playable in any game. Can´t live with jaggies either.

About the poll I don´t understand the question? What purpose would it solve to disable it? Making people brag that they use max settings or why don´t have it as an option? I really don´t get that question.

i guess i just hate knowing that i could be having more fps. i love to have tons and tons of them! and when i am runnniong aroun d shooting people, i dont look at the jaggies! but i agree that they are ugly when i do notice

Johnmcl7
04-22-04, 12:50 PM
I think the issue jimmjames is meaning, is more from a marketting point of view, to those who don't really understand AA, and see the 6800 taking a large performance hit (compared to the other modes) may assume the 6800 isn't quite perfect or something(comments such as this: http://www.sharkyforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=233030) - hard to explain but I think I see the point he is making. Personally I think they should leave it in, from what I've read in various PC forums, people like having as much choice as possible.

John

Cota
04-22-04, 12:59 PM
I think they should make 8xAA mixed mode 2xSS 4xMS, image quality wouldn't be much different and performance drop would be much lower.

They should also have 4x SS maybe it wouldnt be as slow as 8x mixed mode and quality should be comparable.

Templar
04-22-04, 03:25 PM
Edited by vamp

reever2
04-22-04, 03:40 PM
Who cares? if you don't like the method because it is slow then don't use it, do you just want it disabled so NV wouldn't look bad when 8x is turned on?

jimmyjames123
04-22-04, 04:26 PM
I'd say NVIDIA should care, unless they want to look very poorly compared to their competitor. How much sense does it make to have a "feature" that severly cripples the card?

Apparently, the 8xAA mode used in the benchmarks was 4xSS + 2xMS, the worst hit that the card could take. I have read that NVDA does have hidden 8xAA modes with 4xMS + 2xSS which will perform much better, and also apparently the 4xS mode even performs better than what was used in the reviews.

fivefeet8
04-22-04, 05:16 PM
I think they should make 8xAA mixed mode 2xSS 4xMS, image quality wouldn't be much different and performance drop would be much lower.

They should also have 4x SS maybe it wouldnt be as slow as 8x mixed mode and quality should be comparable.

Nvidia does have a 4x pure SS AA, but it's hidden. You can use various video card utilities to enable it.

particleman
04-22-04, 05:19 PM
Of course 4XS performs better as 4XS is 2XSS with 2XMS. But for some reason or another nVidia never did get 4XS or 6XS to work in OpenGL, which is probably why they removed them. Does anyone know if there is any technical reason why 4XS and 6XS can't work in OpenGL? It seems odd that 4XS has been around since the GeForce 4 days but nVidia has never gotten it to work in OpenGL.

Nv40
04-22-04, 05:28 PM
I think the issue jimmjames is meaning, is more from a marketting point of view, to those who don't really understand AA, and see the 6800 taking a large performance hit (compared to the other modes) may assume the 6800 isn't quite perfect or something(comments such as this: http://www.sharkyforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=233030) - hard to explain but I think I see the point he is making. Personally I think they should leave it in, from what I've read in various PC forums, people like having as much choice as possible.

John

yep...

people usually doesnt know what 8xaa in NVidia cards it is.. so i can expect some reviewers benchmarks of "8xaa"(4x+2ss) in the Nv40 vs 8xaa in the R420. and this is not apples vs apples ,supersampling allows more crisper and sharper quality textures than any R3xx AA modes.. just look at the sceenshots here..

http://www20.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040414/geforce_6800-43.html

the problem with NV3x hardware was that the performance ws not good enough to handle those modes. but NV4x already can handle it in many games ,at 1024/7 res.. the best solution i think is not to disable it.. since it can be very usefull in old Dx7 and DX8 games.. or in some Dx9 not higher than 1024x768 res. in many games Nv40 score is ~200fps .so i think is better to label it.. diferent.. rather than 8xaa.. allow that AA mode in advance settings under AA mixed modes.. like mixed mode A/B/C.. or 1/2/3 or ,4xms/2xss ..etc..

here is the the picture.. notice that one shot looks blurred the textures in the floor ,the other is more sharp the colors.

MontoyaSG
04-22-04, 08:41 PM
8xAA works great for some games
e.g. WC3

Edge
04-22-04, 09:30 PM
How much sense does it make to have a "feature" that severly cripples the card?

Apperently a lot, because EVERY card released nowadays has very "crippling" features. The GF3/4 took a 40% performance hit from lvl8 aniso, but that doesn't mean they locked it away and only let you use lvl2 aniso. For that matter, the GF1/2/Radeon/8500 took huge performance hits from all AA modes, but again it was a feature that was availible right from the videocard control panel.

There's absolutly no reason not to add in extra features, limiting your options is never a good thing. 8xS on my TI4200 card was a lifesaver in games like The Longest Journey. I honestly wish they'd just unlock ALL AA modes availible on their cards, sure 12xAA isn't going to be used very often by GF3 owners, but there's always the possibility that you'll want it for something (lets not forget some of those early 3d acclerated games which are lock to 640x480).

I think if Nvidia really wants to avoid having these modes benchmarked, they should have them hidden by default under the control panel but then have an extra setting under the configuration menu that says something about allowing unsupported/experimental modes that are only provided for the convenience of those who want it.

fivefeet8
04-22-04, 11:36 PM
Of course 4XS performs better as 4XS is 2XSS with 2XMS. But for some reason or another nVidia never did get 4XS or 6XS to work in OpenGL, which is probably why they removed them. Does anyone know if there is any technical reason why 4XS and 6XS can't work in OpenGL? It seems odd that 4XS has been around since the GeForce 4 days but nVidia has never gotten it to work in OpenGL.

Yeah. I've wonder that too since I've seen 8xS available in OGL. Although I am sure that 4xS FSAA will be quite useable on the 6800u. ;) I have a feeling Nvidia may enable other FSAA options through their drivers as they've done in the past. Maybe some RGMS + 2xSS. 4xMS FSAA?? :D

Super Sampling AA does have it's uses. It can AA transparencies and alpha textures which pure Multisampling can't. It also has an affect on AF quality.

3madcows
04-23-04, 02:40 AM
The should keep it for a big reason. Lots of people will complain that an older generation card had that so why doesn't this one have it if it's newer and better. I also agree that it would be very useful with older games. Even 4xAA shows major jaggies in racing games (I've been playing Viper Racing lately).

Blacklash
04-23-04, 03:36 PM
Personally, I'd like to see 4xS as an option instead of 8XAA. The IQ vs performance hit on the 6800u would be barely noticeable.

simwiz2
04-23-04, 04:11 PM
While I want them to keep 8xAA just because there is no reason not to have an option, there is certainly a compelling reason for NV to remove it:

http://img.hexus.net/v2/graphics_cards/nvidia/nv40/images/ut2003.png

http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD03NDcmdXJsX3BhZ2U9MQ= =

In this review, the 6800 is benchmarked with 4xAA @ 1024, where it is often partly system limited. Above 1024 is only tested with the slow 8xAA, making the 6800 look very pathetic, even compared to the older 9800XT.

StealthHawk
04-24-04, 08:20 PM
Of course 4XS performs better as 4XS is 2XSS with 2XMS. But for some reason or another nVidia never did get 4XS or 6XS to work in OpenGL, which is probably why they removed them. Does anyone know if there is any technical reason why 4XS and 6XS can't work in OpenGL? It seems odd that 4XS has been around since the GeForce 4 days but nVidia has never gotten it to work in OpenGL.

Because the super sampling scale factor is not equal in 4xS or 6x modes. If you look at the super sampling component of hybrid FSAA modes you will see the super sampling being described as X by Y. X needs to be equal to Y to use it in OGL.