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View Full Version : Short and sweet. What EXACTLY did each card bring new as far as innovative features??


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DaHousecat
05-06-04, 08:06 PM
I'm buying the card with the most innovative features.
Right now I'm leaning towards the NV6800s.. someone please explain to me what the media chip exactly does for us?

And what exactly did ATI bring? Besides performance.
Because the performance is close enough only a fanboy would still buy the ATI IMO.
But is the FSAA "features" they have, or anything else REALLY comparable to whatever this media chip does and the promise that 3.0 shaders hold?

Bottom line? They BOTH brought performance.
My budget is definitely not $500. And no way in hell am I buying a X800Pro over a GT from what I've gathered from the reviews.

I'd rather have the newer shaders personally (I think). And the media chip, which I dont know much about.

The review sites are biased or something, anyone that goes thru and cues up what wins were important and what ones arent can CLEARLY see NV won this round IMO.

I read on this forum that ATI only won WITH AA/AF enabled and only due to them CHEATING(!!!!!!!!!!) in their drivers!
That is absolutely horrible.
ATI is ripping off their customers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With ATI cheating in their drivers to get AF performance I just dont know if I can support a company like THAT!
There needs to be investigations about this.

Without AA/AF it appears NV wins pretty clearly.

Anyway I'd like to know what exactly these new media capabilities are?
And what DID ATI bring exactly? Anything notable?

CaiNaM
05-06-04, 08:18 PM
ugh.. ati is not "cheating".... no more than nvidia is/was with "brilinear"..

Lfctony
05-06-04, 08:22 PM
Nice avatar! :)

Yep, Nvidia was using brilinear filtering in the 61.11 drivers, with ATI probably using bilinear filtering during AF testing.

Blacklash
05-06-04, 09:07 PM
I heard about this (The ati filtering) when I bought my 9800pro way back when. I wish I could remember the full details. It is something along the lines of filtering is applied at the 'last stage'. I know the rtool application will allow full tril linear at all stages in OGL. I was wondering though, is there notable IQ differences to anyone?

I can not see any degradation on my Pro using the naked eye with Ati's current implementation. Does anyone have any in game screen shots where this has mattered? "Optimizations" has become a dirty word, but it should not be save when it has obvious IQ impact, aka if it can not be detected with the naked eye, we shouldn't be concerned with it.

DaHousecat
05-06-04, 09:12 PM
No its quite clear according to Xbit labs

“We should bear in mind that graphics cards based on ATI’s chips also have quite some optimizations of trilinear filtering that cannot be disabled; for instance, when both anisotropic and trilinear filtering modes are turned on, the trilinear filtering will only be present on the first texture layer.”

I've never been so disappointed with a company ever.
What a HORRIBLE launch. This messes EVERYTHING up.

ATI -COULD- have had a hands down win. They -SHOULD- have had a hands down win. And would have without cheating.
Its disgusting how they lower IQ to perform and merely have bragging rights.

I'm NOT impressed. Shame on you ATI.. shame on you..
I dont like hearing EXCUSES being made for ATI, or pointing the finger somewhere else.. thats not how it works. ATI apologists need not apply.

This is a absolutely horrid example of a mindless corporation hog tieing its customers and taking their money after sucker punching them with a card with LESS hardware features than the competition!!!!
Investigations need to commence on ATIs drivers and what ELSE they are pulling on us!

BTW, can anyone PLZ tell me about the new media chip? What does it exactly do? How is it different from the Rage Theater chips on the ATI boards?

gordon151
05-06-04, 09:21 PM
Bad Ati, Bad Bad Bad Ati!!!

Stevia
05-06-04, 09:27 PM
l

DaHousecat
05-06-04, 09:29 PM
Bad Ati, Bad Bad Bad Ati!!!

Thats right. The entire enthusiast community should boycott ATI products until they stop releasing a subpar card, then CHEATING to get the #1 slot.

As far as I'm concerned their designation of ATI winning by most of the sites is false, because they are CHEATING and abusing the consumer!

This NEEDS to be investigated by one of the major sites and a commision needs to be started to put a watch on ATI becuase they cannot be trusted.
And I thought THEY were the good company here. I really did, I thought that NV had done all the cheating and ATI was clean.
Instead NV cleans up their act, gives the consumer MORE for their money as far as features and speed is concerned.
Because they didnt sell out principles and IQ to win anything.
This launch is the worst time for ATI ever.

GlowStick
05-06-04, 09:32 PM
No its quite clear according to Xbit labs

“We should bear in mind that graphics cards based on ATI’s chips also have quite some optimizations of trilinear filtering that cannot be disabled; for instance, when both anisotropic and trilinear filtering modes are turned on, the trilinear filtering will only be present on the first texture layer.”

I've never been so disappointed with a company ever.
What a HORRIBLE launch. This messes EVERYTHING up.

ATI -COULD- have had a hands down win. They -SHOULD- have had a hands down win. And would have without cheating.
Its disgusting how they lower IQ to perform and merely have bragging rights.

I'm NOT impressed. Shame on you ATI.. shame on you..
I dont like hearing EXCUSES being made for ATI, or pointing the finger somewhere else.. thats not how it works. ATI apologists need not apply.

This is a absolutely horrid example of a mindless corporation hog tieing its customers and taking their money after sucker punching them with a card with LESS hardware features than the competition!!!!
Investigations need to commence on ATIs drivers and what ELSE they are pulling on us!

BTW, can anyone PLZ tell me about the new media chip? What does it exactly do? How is it different from the Rage Theater chips on the ATI boards?
Here is the deal, there is no real Image quality diffrnce between ATi's ansio and Nvidias, pritty simple as that. I gaurentee you if we had 2 mystrie mahcines running a same demo loop you could not tell them apart.

Next, if you want to buy a 6800 no one is stoping you!

evilchris
05-06-04, 09:32 PM
Thats right. The entire enthusiast community should boycott ATI products until they stop releasing a subpar card, then CHEATING to get the #1 slot.

As far as I'm concerned their designation of ATI winning by most of the sites is false, because they are CHEATING and abusing the consumer!

This NEEDS to be investigated by one of the major sites and a commision needs to be started to put a watch on ATI becuase they cannot be trusted.
And I thought THEY were the good company here. I really did, I thought that NV had done all the cheating and ATI was clean.
Instead NV cleans up their act, gives the consumer MORE for their money as far as features and speed is concerned.
Because they didnt sell out principles and IQ to win anything.
This launch is the worst time for ATI ever.

ROFL. Driverheaven will have an article soon I am sure!

walkndude
05-06-04, 09:35 PM
Hope others can show restraint and not bite on this one, lets help the mods out and let this one drop out of site...

DaHousecat
05-06-04, 09:36 PM
Here is the deal, there is no real Image quality diffrnce between ATi's ansio and Nvidias, pritty simple as that. I gaurentee you if we had 2 mystrie mahcines running a same demo loop you could not tell them apart.

Next, if you want to buy a 6800 no one is stoping you!

No you are wrong. Because Driverheaven checked every frame and made FALSE claims on NV cheating. FALSE!

Now, we have ATI.. PRETENDING TO THE THRONE BY CHEATING.

NOT cool.
I bet if I took a screen shot of ATI AF that I could tell! It doesnt even MATTER. Its a matter of principle and RIPPING OFF THE CONSUMER.
They are NOT the fastest!
If they quit CHEATING, and then still were faster.. THEN I'd give them the crown but instead they disgrace their efforts by lowering themselves and CHEATING.

evilchris
05-06-04, 09:37 PM
Hope others can show restraint and not bite on this one, lets help the mods out and let this one drop out of site...

You just bumped it.

Blacklash
05-06-04, 09:38 PM
This knowledge has been around, but you are right in that Nvidia driver optimizations are focused on and the Ati AF issues are not.

3D center did a report on this extensively but it has been largely forgotten:

"It all fits together: there's only FP24 for operations on texture coordinates, yet there's no apparent disadvantage because of the simplifications in BF, TF and AF. This is how R300 offers unmatched performance, but doesn't deliver the best image quality. From an "ethics" point of view (whatever that means to ATI and Nvidia) the competition can easily reduce image quality through drivers, to squeeze a bit of extra performance out of the chips and keep up."

http://www.3dcenter.de/artikel/2003/11-21_c_english.php

It is good to remind people that no company is 'clean' in this game.

Still I will re iterate I have not been disappointed with the IQ delivered by my 9800pro. It is true, contrary to fan boi crowing, old school Nvidia AF is the higher quality. Read the 3d center article for the why. However, offsetting this with 'stupid driver tricks' is not wise either.

Stevia
05-06-04, 09:38 PM
Thats right. The entire enthusiast community should boycott ATI products until they stop releasing a subpar card, then CHEATING to get the #1 slot.

As far as I'm concerned their designation of ATI winning by most of the sites is false, because they are CHEATING and abusing the consumer!

This NEEDS to be investigated by one of the major sites and a commision needs to be started to put a watch on ATI becuase they cannot be trusted.
And I thought THEY were the good company here. I really did, I thought that NV had done all the cheating and ATI was clean.
Instead NV cleans up their act, gives the consumer MORE for their money as far as features and speed is concerned.
Because they didnt sell out principles and IQ to win anything.
This launch is the worst time for ATI ever.

LOL, Do us a favour, slowly unraval your lips of NVIDIA.

MikeC
05-06-04, 09:40 PM
Man I can't take one break and enjoy myself because I have to babysit the forums. DaHousecat where did you come from?

Skuzzy
05-06-04, 09:42 PM
ATI's Anisotrophic + Trilinear filtering works as per the DirectX 9 specification. You want to complain about it, call Microsoft.

hithere
05-06-04, 09:43 PM
ugh.. ati is not "cheating".... no more than nvidia is/was with "brilinear"..


...which "brilinear" is impossible to disable due to a "bug" in their drivers...not the regular drivers, the ones they provided for the websites to review, I might add. The ATI "visible texture stage only" filtering is transparent for games where the first texture stage is the one that is visible...that's the only one that needs filtering. In games where the first texture stage is not the one visible, it causes blurrier textures.

This is the tough part, so bear with me...the way to disable the optimizations on the ATI card is: (deep breath)...enable it in the game and not the control panel. Yes, it is THAT difficult. And it's been that way for almost a year, and ATi has spoken about it publicly.

You guys are joking, right? Seriously? You're not here to call the easily-disabled, been-there-forever optimizations from ATi "cheats" while you staunchly defend the forced-on optimizations from Nvidia, right? I don't call the Nvidia stuff cheats, I just have a hard time with the fact you can't get rid of them in the drivers they give reviewers. You guys interested in an "apples to apples" comparison should take note.

It's hard to read sarcasm over the internet...you guys sure you're not joking?

evilchris
05-06-04, 09:43 PM
ATI's Anisotrophic + Trilinear filtering works as per the DirectX 9 specification. You want to complain about it, call Microsoft.

I don't think the spec covers that.

DaHousecat
05-06-04, 09:43 PM
I was just browsing the forums and came across this piece of information.
It was on page 5 of your NV40/R420 consolidation posted by one of your members.

I'm just very, very disappointed and people should know about this.

edit- I'm not defending NV here at all.. who brought up NV?
Its ATI that is cheating and pretending to hold the throne here.

PS. No one has told me anything about this media chip yet.

muzz
05-06-04, 09:46 PM
Man I can't take one break and enjoy myself because I have to babysit the forums. DaHousecat where did you come from?

Mike you didn't actually think you would be able to take a break at this particular time in the season did you ;)

I would have thought that you and the crew would have been on skeleton crew for at least 2 weeks prior to these launches resting up... knowing that there would be no sleep for the weary. :D

MikeC
05-06-04, 09:47 PM
I was just browsing the forums and came across this piece of information.
It was on page 5 of your NV40/R420 consolidation posted by one of your members.

I'm just very, very disappointed and people should know about this.

I doubt that is the real reason you made this thread. Do you want to leave or do you want me to help you?

Blacklash
05-06-04, 09:51 PM
Yes ATI matches the microsoft standard. The 3dcenter article makes valid criticisms from a technical stand point though. The article is very detailed and well thought out. It takes time and effort to absorb. Again, I am statisfied with the 9800pro I have.

What mystifies me is why every debate must be riddled with immature grade school posturing that has ZERO weight on the issues at hand/being discussed.

EDIT: Oh and to Hithere, thank you for the meaningful technical contribution. I was trying like hell to recall those things. And YES optimizations that can not be controlled by the user and can be readily seen are NOT the way to go. I do not support any optimizing Nvidia has done through drivers in this fashion.

GlowStick
05-06-04, 09:53 PM
No you are wrong. Because Driverheaven checked every frame and made FALSE claims on NV cheating. FALSE!

Now, we have ATI.. PRETENDING TO THE THRONE BY CHEATING.

NOT cool.
I bet if I took a screen shot of ATI AF that I could tell! It doesnt even MATTER. Its a matter of principle and RIPPING OFF THE CONSUMER.
They are NOT the fastest!
If they quit CHEATING, and then still were faster.. THEN I'd give them the crown but instead they disgrace their efforts by lowering themselves and CHEATING.
Ok, i have some bad news for you then.

Every video card compnay out there that has and could still be useing game specfici optmizations or cheats what ever you want to call them.

Nvidia, Ati, XGI, S3

and those are the only ones who i can think of off the top of my head, maybe you should go buy a Matrox, but i woudlnt not be shocked at all if they optmized too.

Skuzzy
05-06-04, 09:55 PM
I don't think the spec covers that.
Yes, it does. It gives the video card manufacturer several options that can be supported. ATI's implementation is a legal option in the DX9 spec.
It does not detail how anisotropic filtering will be accomplished. That is left to the manufacturer. It does specifically require trilinear filering to be used for all mipmap transitions, which ATI does do.