View Full Version : ATI cheating with AF
Blacklash
05-17-04, 06:08 PM
Correction, in the 60.72's you have the option to turn it off the brilinear filtering optimizations (something absent in the latest set of drivers though). If I'm not mistaken, it was still the default option.
Edit: Malficar, do you really have a 6800-GT?
No it was wishful thinking when I thought they were coming out. I never changed it back :D I changed it to avoid future confusion.
saturnotaku
05-17-04, 06:11 PM
And though I'm a tad looser in the collar about this stuff than some of you in this thread, I still feel that I got my money's worth with just about every GPU purchase I make. All of these products are amazing in their own respects... I mean c'mon, who would have thought 15 years ago that a piece of PCB like a modern videocard could create amazing scenery found in titles like Silent Hill 3, Doom 3, FarCry etc...?? I still find that fact simply amazing every time I kick into a modern 3d app...
It's not only the newer games, but also firing up older games and cranking up the resolution, FSAA and AF. Take a game like Half-Life, Quake 3, NOLF 2 and others. With the latter, unfortunately, 1280x1024 isn't supported so I put it to 1024x768, maxed out the AA then let the game apply full trilinear and AF and I can play with vsync on without incident. And it looks pretty darn good to boot.
Blacklash
05-17-04, 06:18 PM
I understand your points Ragejg,
I do not think Nvidia or Ati would waste money marketing to us or 'pleasing us' if they didn't like the return. Of course I appreciate the work both companies have done. I still think we need to keep them both honest as possible.
I certainly don't mind them making mistakes. This is a choice for each person to make I suppose. I expect them to manipulate us into thinking their cards are the best things since sliced bread, that's marketing. The thing we need to decide on our own is ,when does intentional deception become intolerable? We all have degrees we are willing to accept. Nvidia/Ati ought to deliver what they promise. If they tell me I am getting full trilinear filtering, for 500usd I better be getting it.
fallguy
05-17-04, 06:47 PM
I like it when people assume too much, without all the facts.
There is nothing proven yet. If they did indeed cheat, then Im seriously disappointed with ATi. But as of now, they have the benefit of the doubt.
But as of now, they have the benefit of the doubt.
I wonder where was all this support for nVidia when they needed it not too long ago?
Sure its ATI, they can do no wrong.
Be it its a cheat or not, the best way to make it right is by not buying the gfx cards, that goes for both IHVs.
Even if it is a cheat, I'm sure they can iron it out with a new driver set and the performance should still be light years better than what I am playign with now.
"I wonder where was all this support for nVidia when they needed it not too long ago?
Sure its ATI, they can do no wrong."
The last time NV was accused I stated I will give them some time to iron it out, like ATi did with the quack issue.
I'm sure a quick search would attest to that.
So even though I stated this looks bad I am giving them time to answer, and FIX this issue.
Not that it really matters, but I personally am giving them a few.
Muzz that was a question to Fallguy, sorry if it didn't come out correct...
Either way I say we wait and see what ATI say themselves about all of this.
The way I see it, there isn't any solid evidence at least not like the 3DM03 fiasco that nVidia found themselves in, which was a clear cheat...
fallguy
05-17-04, 07:29 PM
I wonder where was all this support for nVidia when they needed it not too long ago?
Sure its ATI, they can do no wrong.
Be it its a cheat or not, the best way to make it right is by not buying the gfx cards, that goes for both IHVs.
Even if it is a cheat, I'm sure they can iron it out with a new driver set and the performance should still be light years better than what I am playign with now.
Same place this was. Go try and find a post of mine condeming NV before proof was shown. You wont find any.5
Same place this was. Go try and find a post of mine condeming NV before proof was shown. You wont find any.5
I'm looking at your join date but I did read your first posts fallguy. I also read the quote at the top of the page by Patti Mikula as posted by Hanners.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=223114#post223114
Time will tell for ATI and NVIDIA.
fallguy
05-17-04, 08:21 PM
Who cares if my first post was to "defend" ATi. I was tired of the ignorance being spread in that topic.
The question to me was, where was NV's support with cheating allegations. I never made them out to be guilty, without first seeing the facts. The other fact me owning a 5900NU.
Good try though.
Who cares if my first post was to "defend" ATi. I was tired of the ignorance being spread in that topic.
The question to me was, where was NV's support with cheating allegations. I never made them out to be guilty, without first seeing the facts. The other fact me owning a 5900NU.
Good try though.
I'm not saying you said NVIDIA was guilty without seeing the facts but the facts were public before you joined our forums.
Good try at what? Yes I read you have a 5900NU you bring that up at times if people question your posts . I have a X800Pro and a X800XT on pre-order does that mean anything. I don't think so.
randsom
05-17-04, 08:35 PM
I'm not saying you said NVIDIA was guilty without seeing the facts but the facts were public before you joined our forums.
Good try at what? Yes I read you have a 5900NU you bring that up at times if people question your posts . I have a X800Pro and a X800XT on pre-order does that mean anything. I don't think so.
It means youre unbiased :)
I have a X800Pro and a X800XT on pre-order does that mean anything.
It means ya really wanna play FC fast!! ;) :lol2:
fallguy
05-17-04, 09:15 PM
Mike, you are the one who brought it up. You dug up my first post. If you arent saying I said NV was guilty before seeing the facts, why even bring it up? Other things have happened since I joined too.
Which is what I was getting at. I just sold my 9800XT, to get a X800 Pro. I also have a 5900NU, because at the time, it was the best deal.
Mike, you are the one who brought it up. You dug up my first post. If you arent saying I said NV was guilty before seeing the facts, why even bring it up? Other things have happened since I joined too.
Which is what I was getting at. I just sold my 9800XT, to get a X800 Pro. I also have a 5900NU, because at the time, it was the best deal.
Oh that is what you're getting at hard to understand with above posts. Just remember fallguy we are a NVIDIA fansite and like I've said before I offer no apologies for that. Your constant negative posts are not enjoyable. I'm not providing my forums as a sounding board for you and your agenda. If you don't like our my forums or my members don't come. Don't think because you own a 5900NU that your entitled.
fallguy
05-18-04, 04:18 AM
Oh that is what you're getting at hard to understand with above posts. Just remember fallguy we are a NVIDIA fansite and like I've said before I offer no apologies for that. Your constant negative posts are not enjoyable. I'm not providing my forums as a sounding board for you and your agenda. If you don't like our my forums or my members don't come. Don't think because you own a 5900NU that your entitled.
Way to get side tracked. All this started, because someone questioned my "support" for NV when they were accused of cheating. I told the person the same place is it right now for ATi, waiting for proof.
My posts are not contantly negative, but I dont care to post what I feel. I dont have an agenda like you claim, it seems you're reading too much into things. I guess my 0.77 posts a day are annoying?
I have never A) called anyone a name, B) attacked anyone with personal insults, C) or broken any other rules that I am aware of. If you dont want me to post my opinion or feelings towards NV that might be negative, then ban me. Because Ill post what is my opinion. I have never rattled off saying NV sucks for cheating, blah blah blah. Because I dont think that is contructive, or helps anything.
Dont be jealous my avatar (wife) is hotter than yours. :lol2:
zakelwe
05-18-04, 04:45 AM
I'm not too bothered about trilinear / bilinear / brilinear etc etc but what I do find troublesome is
1) It seems to try and hide itself
2) If it is stopped and pure trilinear is done what happens to the benchmarks, if they go down a lot then all th previous 6800 v X800 benchmarks are invalid if it was supposed to be a level playing field ( I am sick of the terms apples to apples ;) ).
3) It seems to have been going for a long time if DaveB and John Carmack are to be believed. So you can throw out all the 9800/9600 benchmarks as well, if it is true.
Hopefully we will hear from ATI soon. It is rather amusing to see Hellbinder and DW actually say very little on the subject, if it had been nvidia their post counts would have been shooting through the roof, voices screaming hysterically LOL :D . But as it is their "wife" that has been unfaithful they are being loyal.
I have to say Muzz, B3D is Ati biased, whether intended or not, IMO, but it does have good technical expertise.
Regards
Andy
fallguy
05-18-04, 04:49 AM
btw, the Inq has posted an ATi statement. If you can believe the Inq.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15971
There has been a lot of discussion about our trilinear filtering algorithms recently.
The objective of trilinear filtering is to make transitions between mipmap levels as near to invisible as possible. As long as this is achieved, there is no "right" or "wrong" way to implement the filtering.
We have added intelligence to our filtering algorithm to increase performance without affecting image quality. As some people have discovered, it is possible to show differences between our filtering implementations for the RADEON 9800XT and RADEON X800. However, these differences can only be seen by subtracting before and after screenshots and amplifying the result. No-one has claimed that the differences make one implementation "better" than another.
Our algorithm for image analysis-based texture filtering techniques is patent-pending. It works by determining how different one mipmap level is from the next and then applying the appropriate level of filtering. It only applies this optimization to the typical case – specifically, where the mipmaps are generated using box filtering. Atypical situations, where each mipmap could differ significantly from the previous level, receive no optimizations. This includes extreme cases such as colored mipmap levels, which is why tests based on color mipmap levels show different results. Just to be explicit: there is no application detection going on; this just illustrates the sophistication of the algorithm.
We encourage users to experiment with moving the texture preference slider from “Quality” towards "Performance" – you will see huge performance gains with no effect on image quality until the very end, and even then, the effect is hardly noticeable. We are confident that we give gamers the best image quality at every performance level.
Microsoft does set some standards for texture filtering and the company’s WHQL process includes extensive image quality tests for trilinear filtering and mipmapping. CATALYST passes all these tests – and without application detection, which could be used if you wanted to get a lower-quality algorithm go undetected through the tests.
Finally, ATI takes image quality extremely seriously and we are confident that we set the bar for the whole industry. We don’t undertake changes to our filtering algorithms lightly, and perform considerable on-line and off-line image analysis before implementing changes. This algorithm has been in public use for over a year in our RADEON 9600 series products, and we have not received any adverse comments on image quality in that time. If anyone does find any quality degradation as a result of this algorithm, they are invited to report it to ATI. If there is a problem, we will fix it.
It works by determining how different one mipmap level is from the next and then applying the appropriate level of filtering.
Aka we don't give you full trilinear even when the app requests it. :rolleyes: :screwy:
Just to be explicit: there is no application detection going on; this just illustrates the sophistication of the algorithm.
But there is coloured mipmap detection going on, and only then you will be given full trilinear...... :screwy:
They don't address the fact there is a performance drop when coloured mipmaps is enabled......
Who is ATI trying to fool? :lol2: :lol2: :lame:
most of those defending ATI are Catalyst Beta Testers :retard:
http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos_news/00/07/IMG0007851_1.jpg
http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos_news/00/07/IMG0007852_1.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/quasat/ATi%20PDF%20on%20Benchmarking%20Section%20Texturin g%20Bottlenecks.JPG
how many more extreme cheats does ATI still have and god-knows-what have they done to hide them
it seems ATI is in a fix. if they remove the cheats - they will perform badly. if it donest - why would they borther putting them in the first place.
ChrisRay
05-18-04, 07:47 AM
It means youre unbiased :)
Owning 2 brands of hardware doesnt make you unbiased.
I have absolutely no problem with ATI coming up with a method of filtering that gives almost the same IQ as fulltrilinear filtering, in fact this is a very good thing if it can be done with little to no loss in IQ.
What I have a very big problem with is their hiding it and all the while still claiming full trilinear.
They should have come clean with this a long time ago and should give the user the option to turn these optimizations off if the user wants to.
Very disapointing. :(
[SmD]Frylock
05-18-04, 10:17 AM
I personally dont have a problem with optimizations as long as it's invisible to the user, however I do feel that there should be a clearer way to either adjust these or disable them.
I really wish that Nvidia would add a Ansioropic Slider that was more clear as to what it's doing. The 60.72 are somewhat a step in the Right direction but personally Performance and Quality don't work for me when it comes to what I'm selecting. I want to see Bilinear, Trilinear, Brilinear, Automatic, or whatever. The Same thing goes for ATi when it comes down to it.
Basicially If a Card is doing some sort of optimatation thats fine, but if I want it turned off I should have that ability.
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