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View Full Version : NV20/25 --> NV40/45


photophreak314
05-16-04, 07:59 PM
What are the chances of NV pulling off a geforce 3 to geforce 4 performance jump with the refresh for the NV40, the NV45? I know it's a bit early to be talking about refreshes already, but, if there's a good chance the performance will double in 6 months, this industry is accelerating too quickly, and us, the consumers are going to be left in the dust.

For instance, the geforce 3 ti500 has almost identical specs to the geforce 4 ti 4200, and yet the 4200 performs twice as fast, and they are both based on the same architecture.

Thoughts, comments?

Headbust
05-16-04, 08:03 PM
i doubt it, this is a big enough leap as it is. What you also gotta consider is that yes they probably could double the performance if they wanted to of these cards that are both out by ati and nvidia, but why jump 3yrs ahead of the time when there is no point?.

You must look at it like this.
People that visit forums like these(video card enthusiast) make up probably %10 of actuall sales of the cards by both ati/nvidia.

Also there is no reason for a refresh of double the performace because they would only effect the people that game at 1600/1200 which in reality is probably about %4 of the gaming world.

photophreak314
05-16-04, 08:08 PM
GOod point. I forgot about the fact that 90% of all computer users shop at futurshop and buy complete systems there with geforce 4 mx's in them, which are just geforce 2's.

I was also thinking along the lines of nvidia forcing developers to adopt new features (SM3.0), by making them highly worthwhile by having cards that run it very well.

Headbust
05-16-04, 08:13 PM
personally i think the biggest thing holding everything back is the OS's out there, windows/linux/mac, i think there all far behind compared to how fast everything else is progressing.

Headbust
05-16-04, 08:19 PM
GOod point. I forgot about the fact that 90% of all computer users shop at futurshop and buy complete systems there with geforce 4 mx's in them, which are just geforce 2's.

I was also thinking along the lines of nvidia forcing developers to adopt new features (SM3.0), by making them highly worthwhile by having cards that run it very well.


Dont know about the future shop thing but to me i think that most users buy at compusa/BB/circuit...this is where all the people that have no clue about PC's go to buy them. And companys liek HP/Gateway ect..ect.. are contributing to how slow it progresses because of the onboard geforces they put in there systems with no AGP slot for future upgrades. Next they are going to start putting 5200fx's in the systems to replace the g4mx's. which is even worse!

Most people buy a system in the $600-900 range and this is all they ever get, and of course they are advertised as to having killer graphics with these cards.

photophreak314
05-16-04, 08:20 PM
Sorry about the Futureshop thing. I live in Canada, and we don't have circuit cities and other computer stores. It's the ONLY big electronics chain for computers and related items that I know of in Canada. I saw my FIRST Best Buy EVER a few months ago.

MUYA
05-16-04, 09:30 PM
the biggest thing holding back the new GPUs are CPU. :D The new gen GPUs/VPUs really need a new 4+ GHz machine to show to get a lil cpu unbound probably.

TheTaz
05-16-04, 10:51 PM
the biggest thing holding back the new GPUs are CPU. :D The new gen GPUs/VPUs really need a new 4+ GHz machine to show to get a lil cpu unbound probably.

Yup.

Looks to me like there's no reason to upgrade video cards for quite a while.

/shrug

Taz

Carbon Unit
05-17-04, 10:43 AM
When the GeForce 4 was released Nvidia started working on the NV40, about 22 months of developement

odin20
05-17-04, 11:35 AM
unless you game with aa and af off and at lower rezoloutions you will still be gpu bound not cpu bound in any of the new games coming out. The review sites have spewed out some crap about the new cards being cpu bound in a few games but they are old engines and old games , this always happens with new hardware. I guarantee you in 2 months your card will be completely gpu bound by games like doom3 and half life 2. We are already gpu bound in farcry. The worst test u can use for a video card is any game based on the quake3 or the unreal tech. Both engines are really old and ut2k4 is a really cpu intensive game, no other game is like that and even in this game with 4xaa and af it is gpu bound, if you dont game at high rez with aa and af on why would you buy one of the new cards anyway.
Sorry but ive been around along time in the computer and video card game and everytime a new card comes out they start talking about it being cpu bound. Its complete rubbish unless your running under 2.8 ghz. Everyone hopes they will buy themselves a "uber" video card that will last 2 years and be top of the line for some reason, dont count on it. The new games will stress the gpu more and more and cpu bound is bull.

TheTaz
05-17-04, 12:33 PM
unless you game with aa and af off and at lower rezoloutions you will still be gpu bound not cpu bound in any of the new games coming out.

Its complete rubbish unless your running under 2.8 ghz.

Lessee...

~I run my games at 1024x768. (17" monitor)
~I run 4x AA and 8xAF IF I have enough computing power for the game.
~I'm maxxed out at an Athlon 2600+ (2.133 GHz).
~I'm not buying a new CPU or Motherboard until next year

Pretty sure that puts me in the "CPU Bound" category... even by your standards.

~I have a 9800 Pro right now, so it doesn't make much sense for me to spend $400 on a new video card that isn't going to do much for me (http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/x800_pro_athlon_xp/), in comparison, due to my CPU... and the fact that When I upgrade next year, it will be a PCI Express Motherboard.


/shrug

Taz

odin20
05-17-04, 01:57 PM
what are you talkin about in new games not old ones. And yes maybe you will be cpu bound but not by much. The new cards are not for you that was my point. Some people are trying to say a 3.4 ghz cpu will be cpu bound in new games, lol not even close.

odin20
05-17-04, 01:59 PM
ohh ya and i noticed you said you run at "4xaa and and 8xaf if you have enough computing power for the game".. Btw aa and af are not effected by your cpu at all, they are completly dependant on your video card which was my point lol.

|JuiceZ|
05-17-04, 02:27 PM
the biggest thing holding back the new GPUs are CPU. :D The new gen GPUs/VPUs really need a new 4+ GHz machine to show to get a lil cpu unbound probably.

Got that right. Since the introduction of the GPU yrs ago, CPU's have been the primary bottleneck that keeps these nextgen cards from performing to their full potential until several cpu generations later. Thats why we always recommending buying the fastest cpu within your budget whenever upgrading to a new graphics card.

coldpower27
05-17-04, 03:23 PM
Yeah, I wonder if NV45 would be a 2x performance increase though, I wonder how that would be possible. Have a few more Vertex Shader Engines? Perhaps 9-10, A few more Pipelines? 20 , 24? Or maybe just higher clocks like 1.4GHZ 1.6GHZ GDDR3 and maybe 500MHZ core speed.

odin20
05-17-04, 06:05 PM
bah can't get through to anyone. Find a review that shows a next generation game(halflife2,doom3 or farcry) that is cpu limited in any way at 1280 * 1024 with 4 xaa and 8 or 16 x af with a processor speed above 3 ghz. You won't find any, which proves the cards are in fact not cpu bound!
It means nothing if quake 3 runs at 300fps or 260 fps on one cpu or another.
The games of today and tomorrow is what matters and unless you guys are reading reviews that im not, i havent found any proof of these cards being cpu bound yet. Here is a chart from the hot hardware preview its the first one i looked at but they are all the same. So i can illustrate the point.
Even at 1024 * 768 the x800xt and the rest are not cpu bound. They drop in speed as soon as aa and af are applied this means GPU bound for the uninformed. I just want people to stop spreading the fud about this cpu bound stuff.

Gouhan
05-17-04, 06:24 PM
odin, what you're sayin' is not true. I've set my AA to 4x and AF to 8x and ran 3DM2K1 GT1-LD with my cpu @ 1050Mhz, and set it again at 2.3Ghz. Believe me when I say there was a massive difference (in the region of 30-40fps). So I can't understand how that wouldn't be cpu bound.

How about Commanche4, I'm sure you've seen numerous benchies on this game, which is known to be cpu bound.

If when a game scales from 1024x768 all the way to 16x12 and it keeps the frame rate within 1 or 2fps of the lower res, does that not to you translate into a cpu bound game or am I mistaken.

The only game I know that doesn't behave in this way is Farcry, whic made no difference when I ran default speeds and oc'ed speeds at all...

Gouhan
05-17-04, 06:31 PM
Come to think of it odin, you could take a P4 1.5Ghz and enable the same settings in say CoD with 16x12 4xAA and 4xAF and there would be no difference between these scores and the scores you'd get on an A64 3000+ ?

It's not fud, and you're actually the first person I've come across who doesn't want to understand this...

AF and AA are subject to different tehniques etc, there are far too many variables involved to use them as a basis for your argument that cpu bound games do not exist.
I have yet to come across a synthetic benchmark that's 100% GFX card,fill-rate/bandwidth dependant.

odin20
05-17-04, 06:32 PM
k we were never talking about 1 ghz processors here dude so don't go off topic.
We are talking about reviewers and other people saying you will be cpu bound with a 3.4 ghz computer when in fact you will probably not be cpu bound until you go down to 2,8.
Btw i realize we can be cpu bound ,lol. We were never talking about that and i dont refute that. The fact's are facts if you don't have proof don't change the subjest. When you are cpu bound you can change af,aa and resolution all you want and if your framerates don't drop it means you are cpu limited. This is not the case with any of the new cards so please stop referring to the uber cards as cpu limited, unless you run a slower cpu.