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SurfMonkey
08-01-02, 06:26 PM
They used to rule the roost, they kicked the top performance 3D manufacturer of the time into the stone age and they displaced the biggest selling manufacturer almost overnight.

Have they lost the plot? Have they over extended themselves with an architecture that's to advanced to be produced now? Or were they so complacent that they were the king of the hill, that they grew just a little to lax?

Whatever the problems are, and some of them, admittedly, maybe out of their control, but whatever the reasons they have an awful lot of catching up to do now.

Not only do they have to deliver but they have to perform as well, and what are the real chances of that happening?

nVidia are in the tightest place they have ever been before, a rock and hard place just doesn't do it justice. Where now the Force? We, as consumers and stock holders, deserve some answers. And prefferably the nice kind :D

Darth Rancid
08-01-02, 06:42 PM
Nothing happende to nVidia.... its just that ATi's engineers has gone to work :)

Pakman
08-01-02, 07:05 PM
I personally think that NVIDIA may have spread their focus a bit too much in the last year or so. What with the X-Box amd nForce products, new generation chips may have been delayed a bit.

And yes, I too think that they may have become a bit bloated by the high stock values etc. It turned from a nice small company to deal with into chipzilla.

sancheuz
08-01-02, 07:08 PM
Guys, nothing is wrong with nVidia, they will deliver the nv30 by the end of this year or very early next year(the latest) and we wll be happy, and everything will be ok. nVidia hasnt said their nv30 technology doesnt work or anything like that, all those rumors started spreading just because the ati 9700 is coming out and people feel nvidia should hurry.

|JuiceZ|
08-01-02, 07:20 PM
I agree pak, while on one side I'm glad to see nVidia seeking new markets and trying to expand I'm a bit worried because it reminds me of that company in redmond so much. I just hope they don't loose their focus on the graphics market or else the guys in red who still devote themselves exclusively to graphics cards may maintain the advantage.

btw, if this next gpu is as revolutionary as all the pr hype is making it out to be, I have no doubt nV will roll out the chip on schedule.

StealthHawk
08-01-02, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by sancheuz
Guys, nothing is wrong with nVidia, they will deliver the nv30 by the end of this year or very early next year(the latest) and we wll be happy, and everything will be ok. nVidia hasnt said their nv30 technology doesnt work or anything like that, all those rumors started spreading just because the ati 9700 is coming out and people feel nvidia should hurry.

there is definitely something wrong with nvidia if they deliver NV30 next year. they need to stay with the product cycles. i won't elaborate because it's obvious what can/might happen as a result of going off schedule.

the .13 R300 will be out by Spring most likely, and that might have enough raw power to easily defeat NV30. it won't matter if NV30 has "shaders beyond DX9."

Acid Rain
08-01-02, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by SurfMonkey


nVidia are in the tightest place they have ever been before, a rock and hard place just doesn't do it justice.

Agreed. Between twin platinum slabs is more like it. ;)


I honestly believe that NV will catch up, it's gonna be ALOT of work, and I believe that the reason behind the temporary fall of the Queen (in the high performance arena) is that they spread themselves over too many places at once, without being able to focus as much as they otherwise would have, on their high performance gear.

Another issue is that while a company looks the best when it's high performance equipment outdoes all the comptetitor's offerings, there really isn't nearly the market-share for the high-end as there is for the low-end, and if NV decided to target OEMs primarily and almost exclusively (unlikely), then they would make scads and scads of money while not providing the fastest hardware.

Again, it is exceptionally doubtfull that they would settle for that, but it would be a slight, and most likely temporary, possibility, if they were to get too far behind.

Acid Rain
08-01-02, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by sancheuz
all those rumors started spreading just because the ati 9700 is coming out and people feel nvidia should hurry.

The last thing we want is for them to hurry like mad.

The 8500 is a prime example of what can happen if you launch a defective/incomplete/driverless product, and those things tend to happen when a company rushes something out the door just to have a competing product.

I won't mind if something works superbly for them and they can finish the chip and launch it early, but I am not in the slightest bit interested in rushed and problematic hardware.

StealthHawk
08-01-02, 09:27 PM
the R8500 launch was an exception and not a rule on prior ATI card launches?

Acid Rain
08-01-02, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
the R8500 launch was an exception and not a rule on prior ATI card launches?
I am not personally sure, I have only owned an 8500 myself.

One thing that seems to be true, though, they have learned alot since the 8500 release, and this will definitely forc NV to make some changes of it's own, or drop out of the race.

I am sure they'll do the former.

Dragon88
08-02-02, 12:03 AM
Nothing has happened to Nvidia, they are just moving into second for a while to let their R&D guys have fun. The NV30 looks like its going to be awesome, nforce2 is on the way and will probably be on my next motherboard. Boy, nvidia doesn't put out $400 upgrade for a few months and people start complaining, If I have to live with my EVER SO SLOW TI4400 for a while longer before the NV30 comes out, well geez, I guess I can do that....

In fact, if nvidia dropped the 6 month refresh out of there production cycle, I would be all for it. Instead of working on optimizing current hardware, they can work on new features and hardware. Nvidia has shown that their driver team can do a good job of optimizing and tweaking on their own to keep a product fresh. If they didn't have to worry about writing in a refresh card, they could have more time to optimize the current cards.

saturnotaku
08-02-02, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
the R8500 launch was an exception and not a rule on prior ATI card launches?

Considering all the problems ATI had with getting functional Windows 2000 drivers for the Rage 128 and original Radeon I'd say the 8500 launch was the rule and the R300 is most likely going to be the exception to it.

I'm sure the R300 won't have a perfect launch, as no hardware ever does. But I have a feeling it will be rather steller considering their past track record.

Lezmaka
08-02-02, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by saturnotaku
But I have a feeling it will be rather steller considering their past track record.

Hell, as long as the features they promote actually work out of the box, then that's an awesome launch for ati.

StealthHawk
08-02-02, 03:15 AM
you have to wonder though, if nvidia would concentrate on its drivers as much if there were no product refreshes being done. the Detonators are part of nvidia's 1-2 punch.

and even though "Detonator 5" has yet to see the light of day, we have seen AF improvements since 28.90, and even more AF related keys in 30.30. all because of the gf4 AF problem. in other words, without gf4 things wouldn't be so good for gf3 owners like me :p

jbirney
08-02-02, 08:51 AM
it won't matter if NV30 has "shaders beyond DX9."

It wont matter as its beyond DX9 is very likely not to get used for quite a long time. Its been over a year since DX8 and we only have one game that uses that stuff...

As others have said when you grow and focus on other market segments you tend to get spread a little thin. I am glad they dropped a bit as that means they will come back a little bit stronger making better products for us which is all good...

SavagePaladin
08-02-02, 09:39 AM
You guys are completely forgetting about NV28. We may know nothing about it, but its very likely that their 6 month cycle will continue. It may not be NV30, but I don't doubt it'll be good
As to losing their edge, no. They've lost nothing. They've simply gained a real competitor.

As to them losing out because of entering more markets, how does that work? You use different teams for different products, so I guess that guy on team 3 working on motherboards must be slowing team 1 on video cards down immensely. As to the Xbox issue, same theory applies.

I certainly wouldn't have my best GPU tech engineers working on lower class integrated stuff.

DaveW
08-02-02, 10:32 AM
I think we are looking at a winter product rather than a fall one. If the GPU is twice as complex as the NV2X part, nVidia needs twice as many people designing it to make the release date. But because of poor sales in the PC market and the slowdown in the economy in general, nVIDIA probably doesn't have the money to hire a lot of staff right now. This is a problem that ATI no doubt has too.

Kruno
08-02-02, 10:41 AM
Seriously what is the point? WOW!!! I have an extra 300fps in Quake 3. :rolleyes:

SurfMonkey
08-02-02, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by DaveW
I think we are looking at a winter product rather than a fall one. If the GPU is twice as complex as the NV2X part, nVidia needs twice as many people designing it to make the release date. But because of poor sales in the PC market and the slowdown in the economy in general, nVIDIA probably doesn't have the money to hire a lot of staff right now. This is a problem that ATI no doubt has too.

I think ATI got that covered with the inclusion of the ARTX team. If it wasn't for them the R300 would not be with us now.

tieros
08-02-02, 11:27 AM
Instead of pondering nVidia's demise, you should be thanking them!

nVidia have the integrity to hold back their product release until after the transition from .15 to .13 fabrication, and the availability of DDR-II.

Meanwhile, ATi is pushing a 120M transistor, .15 micron, >300MHz, 400 dollar beta test of a portable space heater out the door, and their fans are loving it.


Ask how nVidia is doing 6 months from now :-)

SurfMonkey
08-02-02, 12:13 PM
I have to admit you are right there. I think ATi were in such a rush to beat nvidia that they were happy to release a half assed overstressed lump of silicon, safe in the knowledge that a few thousand fanATIcs are willing to stump up several hundred bucks to debug the hardware for them, that will probably attribute more to global warming than all the arses of the worlds cows combined. Especially when they catch fire and melt all those motherboards.

And whats with the fact that you have to plug your local powerstation in just to get the fan to turn.

I see why they are going to charge so much now, it's not because it's a cutting edge piece of technology but because they'll need the cash to fight off the lawsuits from the people whose houses burn down after twenty seconds of a DX7 based game on their shiny new DX9 based card.

And it's not even that much faster than a bog standard Ti4600 at any resolution lower than 1600x1200. An overclocked Ti4600 would probably keep up. Notice I realise the eyecandy will increase the lead. But it's hard to notice any difference past the smoke and flames that used to be my cutting edge computer and gfx card. Arse :D

tieros
08-02-02, 01:08 PM
The R300 with a .13 or smaller fabrication will be an exceptional chip. At .15, it is full of limitations and compromises. It is being prematurely released, to give ATi marketing ammunition and to take advantage of the main buying season. It will be just as quickly forgotten as they ramp up to .13 and DDR-II. If nVidia releases a .15 NV30 or a .13 NV25, they will be equally frowned upon.

The big struggle for both companies is going to be the card after this one. The NV30 and R350 are both solid designs that don't leave a lot of room for major improvements. It's likely that we will see only minor tweaks to them over the next 2-3 years. For companies used to 6 month release cycles, it's going to be a lot harder than it used to be.


FWIW, I think the Ti4600 falls into the same "compromise" category. The Ti4400 should have been their top-of-the-line offering. I have a 4400 and a 4600, and the 4600 just feels like a pre-overclocked version of the 4400. The 4600 runs too hot for a consumer part, IMHO, and it only has 2/3rds of the R300's transistor count, and a slower clock.

rocketmanx
08-02-02, 03:06 PM
At .15, it is full of limitations and compromises overstressed lump of silicon

Huh? Just because it isn't what Nvidia is going with? When ATI is close(or beats) to Nvidia in features then it comes back to performance. Now that ATI has Nvidia beat in features and performance, although it may be for a short period of time but who knows, then the slam on ATI is that they used the same die size that the much praised GF4 uses and now it's a junk chip because Nvidia is trying to shrink to .13? I don't get it. It would appear to me that if you're looking for a "winner" (hard to define winner since this is a never ending cycle of upgrades) then ATI is currently ahead but come winter or holiday season Nvidia will probably resume the lead, come spring it may be ATI again. I guess what urks me is that instead of being glad we have all these great new features and awesome graphics due to fierce competition many of us would rather hammer the negatives of the "other side". I look forward to both cards and will definitely own both the 9700 and the NV30, I just feel sorry for the poor souls who can't afford to get one of either. That would be sad.

tieros
08-02-02, 03:28 PM
I never said anything about ATi's design, only their current implementation. I think the design is excellent. I have no idea how it compares to the NV30 (yet), but hope to see more data soon so that I can make an educated decision.

The problem is that ATi is releasing a chip with 50% more transistors AND a higher clock than the 4600, and I believe the 4600 was already excessively clocked.

ATi has chosen to slap a huge HSF on it, and ship it out the door.

nVidia has chosen to wait for .13 fabrication.

My believe is that ATi is not acting in the best interest of the consumer, and that nVidia is. They are both after all of our cash, but they have chosen two different paths to get it :-D

rocketmanx
08-02-02, 03:40 PM
I'm not sure I agree that Nvidia is working in the best interest of the consumer (I also don't believe they're the devil in a suit either). I think they know that their reputation would suffer way to much if they came out with a buggy chip after the 8500 fiasco and all the propoganda that was thrown at that situatuion. I could carre less how "overstuffed the chip is as long as the card works well, hell, I don't even care if I can OC it. I think a lot of new bugs will actually present themselves after the NV30 is out because of the new .13 process. If I'm not mistaken the only big advantage to going to a smaller process is shorter paths/smaller chips and higher clocks because of the shorter paths and decreased size/voltage? If that's true then I could care less if the chip was as big as a house and clocked at 50HZ, as long as it has the features and perfromance I want from a new card. As far as we all know ATI may have well been working on the 9700 and .13 conversion since before the 8500 came out. They may (I'm sure they do by now) already have a boatload of research done on .13, meaning they may be better prapared for .13 than Nvidia. By the plan for ATI to rehash in the spring with DDR2 and .13 it would appear to me that ATI would have to wait to release a new card at the same time as nv30. That wouldn't make much sense as that's what Nvidia has been doing to everyone for a few years now. This whole .13 discussion will actually be moot point in the spring if ATI does a refresh with .13.
But by then we will be hearing about .10 and DDR3.
BTW- My AMD 2100XP runs damn hot too, compared to a p4, they use differing designs but I love my XP because it gives me a real alternative choice in performance, even if I'm not to happy with the voltage requirements and heat. All AMD did was slap a big HSF on it and throw some voltage at it, but they have what they need to compete and catch-up to Intel while thet work on better designs.
I agree that the next card will be the big challenge as it seems the cards we have coming are already close to rendering scenes as well as the best animation studios. It seems that the consumer graphics market might actually take over the leading edge of tech and actually push what's to come in rendered animation. Imagine Pixar using Nvidia and ATI cards to do production.